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~Anastasia~

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please note this thread is posted in The Ancient Way - I am interested in the Eastern Orthodox views on the wrath of God.

Others welcome in fellowship and discussion, but please don't debate or post an answer if you don't know the EO teaching - I'm familiar with most others already. :)

--------- with that said --------------

Can we talk about the wrath of God? I am mostly curious to be sure I'm not getting an unbalanced view of what the Early Church taught by listening to some teaching and maybe not others. Thanks!!!

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ArmyMatt

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please note this thread is posted in The Ancient Way - I am interested in the Eastern Orthodox views on the wrath of God.

Others welcome in fellowship and discussion, but please don't debate or post an answer if you don't know the EO teaching - I'm familiar with most others already. :)

--------- with that said --------------

Can we talk about the wrath of God? I am mostly curious to be sure I'm not getting an unbalanced view of what the Early Church taught by listening to some teaching and maybe not others. Thanks!!!

View attachment 207068

God's wrath is His love in the presence of the sinner, which is very real and terrible. St Isaac of Syria called it the scourge of God's love.
 
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~Anastasia~

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God's wrath is His love in the presence of the sinner, which is very real and terrible. St Isaac of Syria called it the scourge of God's love.
Thanks Matt. This is what I've understood but I wanted to make sure I wasn't unbalanced in thinking ONLY this.

Right now when I think of a "God" that suddenly changes His demeanor towards us and instead of loving, decides to hurt or destroy out of anger ... I can't help but think that we hold OURSELVES to a higher standard in dealing with one another, and it seems ridiculous to think of a "god" with less self-control than He demands of us. It makes Him like a teenager, or child, or unbalanced person, and I can't wrap my mind around that anymore.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't listening to only one position and getting into error.

Though I will say it does not remove the thought of "awe/fear" at the idea of coming directly before Him.
 
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The views are pretty similar to those of most of the other large Christian denominations, with the exception that Eastern-Orthodoxy doesn't believe in the existence of Purgatory.
Thanks Lucian, but I will have to say ... I'm not quite sure who you mean by "large denominations" but I've run into wildly different beliefs on the wrath of God.

Particularly among many Protestants, the idea is simply that He is being nice for now, but the time will come when a switch will flip and He will no longer be patient, and will become angry and start ripping to shreds everyone who is not on the right "side". I just can't understand that kind of God anymore, but it was also the one I and most people I know were taught.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thanks Matt. This is what I've understood but I wanted to make sure I wasn't unbalanced in thinking ONLY this.

Right now when I think of a "God" that suddenly changes His demeanor towards us and instead of loving, decides to hurt or destroy out of anger ... I can't help but think that we hold OURSELVES to a higher standard in dealing with one another, and it seems ridiculous to think of a "god" with less self-control than He demands of us. It makes Him like a teenager, or child, or unbalanced person, and I can't wrap my mind around that anymore.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't listening to only one position and getting into error.

Though I will say it does not remove the thought of "awe/fear" at the idea of coming directly before Him.

right, God just is that He is, and He is love. St Maximos the confessor deals with this in the Philokalia too
 
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All4Christ

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St John Chrysostom seemed to have a more "fiery punishment " view of hell and the punishment of Hell. I've read that we (in the English speaking world) tend to go more towards Hell being a different experience of God's love more so than having that being the universal Orthodox view.

“(Hell) It is a sea of fire—not a sea of the kind or dimensions we know here, but much larger and fiercer, with waves made of fire, fire of a strange and fearsome kind. There is a great abyss there, in fact, of terrible flames, and one can see fire rushing about on all sides like some wild animal. … There will be no one who can resist, no one who can escape: Christ’s gentle, peaceful face will be nowhere to be seen. But as those sentenced to work the mines are give over to rough men and see no more of their families, but only their taskmasters, so it will be there—or not simply so, but much worse. For here on can appeal to the Emperor for clemency, and have the prisoner released—but there, never. They will not be released, but will remain roasting and in such agony as cannot be expressed.” (Homilies on Matthew 43[44].4)

And:

“For when you hear of fire, do not suppose the fire in that world to be like this: for fire in this world burns up and makes away with anything which it takes hold of; but that fire is continually burning those who have once been seized by it, and never ceases: therefore also is it called unquenchable. For those also who have sinned must put on immortality, not for honor, but to have a constant supply of material for that punishment to work upon; and how terrible this is, speech could never depict, but from the experience of little things it is possible to form some slight notion of these great ones. For if you should ever be in a bath which has been heated more than it ought to be, think then, I pray you, on the fire of hell: or again if you are ever inflamed by some severe fever transfer your thoughts to that flame, and then you will be able clearly to discern the difference. For if a bath and a fever so afflict and distress us, what will our condition be when we have fallen into that river of fire which winds in front of the terrible judgment-seat. Then we shall gnash our teeth under the suffering of our labors and intolerable pains: but there will be no one to succor us: yea we shall groan mightily, as the flame is applied more severely to us, but we shall see no one save those who are being punished with us, and great desolation. And how should any one describe the terrors arising to our souls from the darkness? For just as that fire has no consuming power so neither has it any power of giving light: for otherwise there would not be darkness. The dismay produced in us then by this, and the trembling and the great astonishment can be sufficiently realized in that day only. For in that world many and various kinds of torment and torrents of punishment are poured in upon the soul from every side. And if any one should ask, and how can the soul bear up against such a multitude of punishments and continue being chastised through interminable ages, let him consider what happens in this world, how many have often borne up against a long and severe disease. And if they have died, this has happened not because the soul was consumed but because the body was exhausted, so that had the latter not broken down, the soul would not have ceased being tormented. When then we have received an incorruptible and inconsumable body there is nothing to prevent the punishment being indefinitely extended. For here indeed it is impossible that the two things should coexist. I mean severity of punishment and permanence of being, but the one contends with the other, because the nature of the body is perishable and cannot bear the concurrence of both: but when the imperishable state has supervened, there would be an end of this strife, and both these terrible things will keep their hold upon us for infinite time with much force. Let us not then so dispose ourselves now as if the excessive power of the tortures were destructive of the soul: for even the body will not be able to experience this at that time, but will abide together with the soul, in a state of eternal punishment, and there will not be any end to look to beyond this. How much luxury then, and how much time will you weigh in the balance against this punishment and vengeance? Do you propose a period of a hundred years or twice as long? And what is this compared with the endless ages? For what the dream of a single day is in the midst of a whole lifetime, that the enjoyment of things here is as contrasted with the state of things to come. Is there then any one who, for the sake of seeing a good dream, would elect to be perpetually punished? Who is so senseless as to have recourse to this kind of retribution?” (Ad Theod. 1.10)


However, he does speak of God'/ wrath being a form of helping us and treating the sickness of sin rather than retribution.

"For if the wrath of God were a passion, one might well despair as being unable to quench the flame which he [a wicked man] had kindled by so many evil doings; but since the Divine nature is passionless, even if He punishes, even if He takes vengeance, He does this not with wrath, but with tender care, and much loving-kindness; wherefore it behooves us to be of much good courage, and to trust in the power of repentance. For even those who have sinned against Him He is not wont to visit with punishment for His own sake; for no harm can traverse that Divine nature; but He acts with a view to our advantage, and to prevent our perverseness becoming worse by our making a practice of despising and neglecting Him. For even as one who places himself outside the light inflicts no loss on the light, but the greatest upon himself being shut up in darkness; even so he who has become accustomed to despise that almighty power, does no injury to the power, but inflicts the greatest possible injury upon himself. And for this reason God threatens us with punishments, and often inflicts them, not as avenging Himself, but by way of attracting us to Himself. For a physician also is not distressed or vexed at the insults of those who are out of their minds, but yet does and contrives everything for the purpose of stopping those who do such unseemly acts, not looking to his own interests but to their profit; and if they manifest some small degree of self-control and sobriety he rejoices and is glad, and applies his remedies much more earnestly, not as revenging himself upon them for their former conduct, but as wishing to increase their advantage, and to bring them back to a purely sound state of health. Even so God when we fall into the very extremity of madness, says and does everything, not by way of avenging Himself on account of our former deeds; but because He wishes to release us from our disorder; and by means of right reason it is quite possible to be convinced of this."

First Exhortation to Theodore After His Fall


ETA: I love the explanation and viewpoint that ArmyMatt promotes, and it does seem to be he majority view. I do believe however that we need to recognize that some church fathers did not seem to promote the same view that most of us are taught. I was surprised a few months ago when a priest said something different than the majority view - which is why I researched it more.
 
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~Anastasia~

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St John Chrysostom seemed to have a more "fiery punishment " view of hell and the punishment of Hell. I've read that we (in the English speaking world) tend to go more towards Hell being a different experience of God's love more so than having that being the universal Orthodox view.




However, he does speak of God'/ wrath being a form of helping us and treating the sickness of sin rather than retribution.




ETA: I love the explanation and viewpoint that ArmyMatt promotes, and it does seem to be he majority view. I do believe however that we need to recognize that some church fathers did not seem to promote the same view that most of us are taught. I was surprised a few months ago when a priest said something different than the majority view - which is why I researched it more.

Thanks, A4C, and I've been meaning to get back to this, and wanted to think on it a bit longer. Life has gotten in the way a lot lately. ;)

What I gather from the writings though, is not that the eternal punishment itself is for the sake of restoration (that would essentially amount to universalism, which I know we cannot teach) ... I could accept this as being consistent with God's nature if it were to turn out to be true in the end (which if it were true, we may not know for ages to come). Well ... but that statement opens the possibility of accepting that it could be consistent with God's nature that the threat of eternal punishment is restorative, but ... somehow this still doesn't quite work for several reasons.

Yet St. John Chrysostom points out that the punishment is not the result of a passion in God for retribution. That would be a necessary understanding.

I have tremendous respect for St. John Chrysostom. And not enough knowledge of any broad consensus on his words here. But it seems a necessary thing to understand.

I have the uncomfortable sense (and I know we don't go on feelings, but it has been proving extremely reliable in helping me recognize truth in the past few years especially) ... but I have the uncomfortable sense that I haven't yet found the real truth in this matter. I think maybe it's a bit complex, and there are things that must be understood in tension with one another, and I think my understanding is just a bit unbalanced and there are some things I'm not incorporating.
 
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I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate a patristic understanding to what I've got so far, and correct myself if possible.

I'm not sure what else to ask at this point. Perhaps if I had a broader knowledge of who taught what, exactly, and when. And if their teaching interacted with one another. If anyone has any more information, I'd appreciate it.
 
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right, God just is that He is, and He is love. St Maximos the confessor deals with this in the Philokalia too

By the way, sorry to have a limited understanding, but would you mean the 400 centuries on love, or something else? My Philokalia is piecemeal, being PDF and I've only printed/read some parts. Actually I found those 400 centuries quite challenging lol, and have not revisited them in a few years. But I will happily reread with a mind to this if I'm forgetting something that would be helpful. (Sorry, much of it runs together for me over time - thanks for your help!)
 
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Just this past Sunday, the homily the EO priest gave touched on the topic of hell. He said that hell is not a place, and our hell is separation from God. We choose this. Hell can be here on earth just as much as after we pass. It is not a physical place that you dig a hole in the earth and get to, and its not filled with fire. Its a state of being. As for Gods wrath... I suppose he won't throw us in a pit if we ate dairy on a Wednesday or a Friday. Gods wrath in my view would be against the ones who purposely fight against him, and his wrath would be against the fallen angels who try to take his children. I believe his mercy extends to us unconditionally.
 
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Just this past Sunday, the homily the EO priest gave touched on the topic of hell. He said that hell is not a place, and our hell is separation from God. We choose this. Hell can be here on earth just as much as after we pass. It is not a physical place that you dig a hole in the earth and get to, and its not filled with fire. Its a state of being. As for Gods wrath... I suppose he won't throw us in a pit if we ate dairy on a Wednesday or a Friday. Gods wrath in my view would be against the ones who purposely fight against him, and his wrath would be against the fallen angels who try to take his children. I believe his mercy extends to us unconditionally.

Much of this is exactly what I tend to think.

I will say, especially that I tend to think that hell is more likely to be a matter for the demons, and for those who are perhaps so evil as to deliberately fight against God or who take perverse delight in dragging down His children, or drawing people away from Him. And perhaps only in the case of those who know God ... I would hope those who even do such wicked things, but out of their pain, perhaps, or a mistaken view of God, will still be able to repent of that. That all represents my own thinking though, with a little Scripture to point to those things, and my understanding of God's nature. But it's basically my speculation.

I don't think we can dig a hole and find a fiery hell, but it wouldn't matter to my theology if it were true.

The idea of separation from God is an interesting one. Many teach hell is separation from God, and it makes an intuitive sense. But it also makes sense that those destined for hell would not desire God's presence, so that wouldn't be a "punishment" for them. And the idea of God as a consuming fire, whose presence can't be truly escaped, is something we know to be true, so that part makes a great deal of sense. But "separation" could be a relative term, and it's not something I've ever argued with anyone. I just find it easier to believe in a hell consisting of those who hate God being scourged by His presence, than I can one that consists of people who now wish they could be with God but whom He rejects because they didn't do the right thing at the right time to "be saved". The second makes God a bit capricious, if He truly loved mankind so much that He became incarnate, suffered, and died to redeem mankind.

I also think hell is someting we choose and in a sense make for ourselves. But I couldn't go into great detail about that.

I do certainly agree that God isn't looking for excuses like eating meat on Wednesday and Friday as a reason to burn his beloved children alive forever! God forbid! (ETA: Jesus4Madrid answered that one much better than myself below. :) )
 
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~Anastasia~

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Gods wrath in my view would be against the ones who purposely fight against him, and his wrath would be against the fallen angels who try to take his children. I believe his mercy extends to us unconditionally.

And just in brief - THIS may be the answer I'm looking for. I don't quite know yet. It may be the degree of evil that creates a necessary separation between those who can hope for His mercy (hopefully nearly all persons!) as opposed to those who can realistically expect wrath.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Just this past Sunday, the homily the EO priest gave touched on the topic of hell. He said that hell is not a place, and our hell is separation from God. We choose this. Hell can be here on earth just as much as after we pass. It is not a physical place that you dig a hole in the earth and get to, and its not filled with fire. Its a state of being. As for Gods wrath... I suppose he won't throw us in a pit if we ate dairy on a Wednesday or a Friday. Gods wrath in my view would be against the ones who purposely fight against him, and his wrath would be against the fallen angels who try to take his children. I believe his mercy extends to us unconditionally.
It sounds like in your journey toward Orthodoxy, you are getting dangerously close:)

With respect to Wednesday and Friday fasting, I don't think we do that to appease God's wrath or even to gain his favour, but rather to become healed, to overcome the passions, by God's grace. It sounds like you get that.
 
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All4Christ

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The whole separation from God part seems to be one of the biggest differences in what I've heard people teach about hell. Some teach Hell as an experience of God's love (torment if you are entrenched in sin), since God's presence is everywhere...and some say Hell is a separation from God. I have wondered for quite some time which actually is the historic Orthodox teaching, if they are both acceptable teachings, or if I (most likely) am just not understanding it properly ;)
 
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ArmyMatt

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By the way, sorry to have a limited understanding, but would you mean the 400 centuries on love, or something else? My Philokalia is piecemeal, being PDF and I've only printed/read some parts. Actually I found those 400 centuries quite challenging lol, and have not revisited them in a few years. But I will happily reread with a mind to this if I'm forgetting something that would be helpful. (Sorry, much of it runs together for me over time - thanks for your help!)

it's somewhere in there. Volume 2 I think, but it has been a while for me too, hahaha.
 
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Here's an article to consider that gives a different perspective: Pedagogical and Retributive Punishment by Vladimir Moss | Notes From The Underground

NOTE: the author and site are schismatics, but he does bring forth a lot of Patristics and good points to ponder.
Thank you! I will look at it as soon as I get home. Threw me off for a minute - I thought you were saying Vladimir Moss was a schismatic, and I thought to myself I certainly wasn't aware of that! But I'm guessing you mean the hierormonk who wrote the article. Thanks so much. I may have more questions. :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thank you! I will look at it as soon as I get home. Threw me off for a minute - I thought you were saying Vladimir Moss was a schismatic, and I thought to myself I certainly wasn't aware of that! But I'm guessing you mean the hierormonk who wrote the article. Thanks so much. I may have more questions. :)

pretty sure Moss is still in schism, unless he returned very recently
 
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~Anastasia~

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pretty sure Moss is still in schism, unless he returned very recently
Ah ok then, thank you for letting me know. I do like to be aware of these things. Perhaps I am confusing him with someone else, who wrote a particular book, who I hope is not in schism. I usually check authors and books before I read them though, and not always while they are just on my list. And I haven't yet gotten the book I was thinking of.

Thank you for the info.
 
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