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It's certainly true that we should oppose anything that smacks of dualism, there are certainly not two comparable powers at war. But that doesn't mean that there is not a war at hand, it's just that the decisive battle has already been won and the job of the faithful is to live in the reality that the war is already won. God has gifted His creation with autonomy, limited though it may be. And Satan and his compatriots have used the autonomy that God granted them to engage in hostilities against Him that are still on going. So we are a people at war, we're just at war with a defeated enemy.Except the idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is unscriptural. The devil is referred to as “the prince of this world” and “the prince of the power of the air”, but never as a king, and furthermore it is made clear that his actions are limited, and that he is only able to do what God allows, so that our faith might be proven, like gold tested in the fire. We see this clearly in Job, and we also see this in the Gospels, where the demons are not even able to possess a herd of swine without permission from God.
Indeed the very idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is to be rejected as dualistic. Christianity is not a dualist religion - the devil has no power and no rights and is not at war with God, (and by the way, Jesus Christ is God - why are you using the phrase “God and Christ?”), but rather was defeated the instant he rebelled. This is why we don’t even see the devil in most of the Old Testament, and within Christianity, the devil and demons are depicted as being potentially dangerous to us, but completely subservient to God - even when he stupidly tried to tempt the incarnate Word, and failed utterly.
This was one of the main objections of the early church to Manichaenism and other related sects - they taught that the good God was locked in a war with an evil demiurge, with Jesus Christ being an emanation of the good God sent to impart salvific knowledge to us, with the Gospel interpreted as being the information needed to obtain salvation, as opposed to being the account of how God has already procured salvation for the faithful.
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I would very much like to get the views of my dearly beloved friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 and @Jipsah on this issue. @Jipsah in particular has made some remarks debunking a dualist interpretation in another thread which I found very enjoyable reading.
I'm still having problems reconciling " God so loved the world..." with His having a staff torturer.
Exactly right. Just because Satan has power, especially to deceive, doesn't mean the believer has to be the least bit intimidated by Him. Our faith defeats his efforts every single time - no matter how insidious or clever his tactics are.It's certainly true that we should oppose anything that smacks of dualism, there are certainly not two comparable powers at war. But that doesn't mean that there is not a war at hand, it's just that the decisive battle has already been won and the job of the faithful is to live in the reality that the war is already won. God has gifted His creation with autonomy, limited though it may be. And Satan and his compatriots have used the autonomy that God granted them to engage in hostilities against Him that are still on going. So we are a people at war, we're just at war with a defeated enemy.
God is Good, and Love, and in the person of the Logos, the only begotten son of the Father, God put on our fallen humanity and suffered death so as to destroy death and enable us to have everlasting life. Therefore the idea that He intentionally tortures us is quite wrong. He does allow our faith to be tested in a manner which is ultimately beneficial, but this is not the exercise of His wrath but rather our loving God taking action to reduce the risk or our experiencing the consuming fire of His love as wrath, which is what happens when those who hate God or love the corruption of the world experience His Love - the burning fire of love is experienced as wrath and becomes a torment.
Further to this point, it is widely believed by Patristic and Orthodox theologians that the Outer Darkness is a mercy God grants to those who reject Him, since they would otherwise experience the light of His immediate presence in the World to Come as an intolerable torment. This aligns with what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside,” and also with St. John Chrysostom, who pointed out that the realization of what one was missing out on by not experiencing the joy of the life of the World to Come would be the greatest possible torment.
I don't have any Scriptural support to back up this theory, but I see "outer darkness" somewhat differently. I came to this view subjectively, gleaned from years of self-induced isolation.
I imagine God telling the unrepentant unbeliever that He is giving them exactly what they want - an eternity being their own god - continuing to decide for themselves what is right and wrong. And to boot, a reality utterly devoid of any of God's good gifts.
So imagine an eternity of utter darkness. No sensory input either visually or auditory. Just you completely alone with only your own thoughts.
How will you spend eternity? Alternately accusing or justifying yourself - never, ever coming to a satisfactory conclusion. And perhaps replaying your temporal life here over and over reviewing all that God gave you, and how many times you refused His grace.
And there is no one, not even your fellow tormentee, and especially God Himself, to comfort you or ease your affliction or offer any shred of hope for an end to it all.
And still consumed with hate for God. The worm of bitterness never dies.
That to me scares me a lot more than eternal flames, but alas, it appears hell will be both.
Why should someone deserve such a fate? Because somewhere in those flames is someone we dragged there with us. Misery does love company.
If God the Father was tough enough to expect His own Son to die on a Roman cross for our salvation, I think we can safely assume His justice will be tough.
Thanks bruv.God is Good, and Love, and in the person of the Logos, the only begotten son of the Father, God put on our fallen humanity and suffered death so as to destroy death and enable us to have everlasting life. Therefore the idea that He intentionally tortures us is quite wrong. He does allow our faith to be tested in a manner which is ultimately beneficial, but this is not the exercise of His wrath but rather our loving God taking action to reduce the risk or our experiencing the consuming fire of His love as wrath, which is what happens when those who hate God or love the corruption of the world experience His Love - the burning fire of love is experienced as wrath and becomes a torment.
Further to this point, it is widely believed by Patristic and Orthodox theologians that the Outer Darkness is a mercy God grants to those who reject Him, since they would otherwise experience the light of His immediate presence in the World to Come as an intolerable torment. This aligns with what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside,” and also with St. John Chrysostom, who pointed out that the realization of what one was missing out on by not experiencing the joy of the life of the World to Come would be the greatest possible torment.
Or having been erased from time and space altogether, which makes more sense to me. Why keep a reeking carcass lying around?Apparently the worst that Adolf Hitler can expect from eternal judgement is being eternally locked out of heaven.
Yeah, we could keep him around to remiond us of how righteous we look compared to him.He can order the starvation, killing, murder and torture of millions, but all he has to fear is being eternally locked out.
Much more like ours might be.I don't think so - I think God's retribution will be far harsher than that.
Our Lord's torments were of limted duration, though.If God the Father was tough enough to expect His own Son to die on a Roman cross for our salvation, I think we can safely assume His justice will be tough.
Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. Jesus talks about hell more than he talks about heaven, and describes it more vividly. There’s no denying that Jesus knew, believed, and warned about the absolute reality of hell.
That's wishful thinking. Hitler's carcass was left outside the bunker after he'd committed suicide and was reduced to ashes after being set on fire by his compatriots. Constant Russian shellfire further obliterated the remains. But dental records seem to indicate that traces of Hitler were found by the Soviets.Or having been erased from time and space altogether, which makes more sense to me. Why keep a reeking carcass lying around?
Matthew 25:46 NIV “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
And right next to Hitler is kindly old Aunt Martha who was everybody's best friend but denied Christ - and by example taught others to. No difference between the two.Hell is an uncomfortable topic, but Christ talked about it more than anyone else.
The Uncomfortable Subject Jesus Addressed More than Anyone Else
Leslie Schmucker discusses the uncomfortable reality of Hell, as well as the goodness of God's justice.www.thegospelcoalition.org
That's wishful thinking. Hitler's carcass was left outside the bunker after he'd committed suicide and was reduced to ashes after being set on fire by his compatriots. Constant Russian shellfire further obliterated the remains. But dental records seem to indicate that traces of Hitler were found by the Soviets.
His spirit survived and went through to judgement. He'll still be paying for his crimes today, as per the warnings given by Christ about "eternal punishment". Jesus didn't give those warnings for no reason. He came to specifically save us from that threat.
Jude 3:16?
Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.
From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:
<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>
Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.
No, hell is a place of punishment created for satan and his demons, satan does not rule hell, he will be punished there.Satan is often pictured on a throne in hell. Is there any truth in this picture?
Take a look at the following passage from the Epistles.
Ph. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him
the name that is above every name,
Ph. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth,
Ph. 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father
Phillipians 2:9-11 NIV
Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.
From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:
<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>
Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.
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