Does Satan Rule Hell?

Dale · Nov 2, 2024

Satan is often pictured on a throne in hell. Is there any truth in this picture?

Take a look at the following passage from the Epistles.

Ph. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him
the name that is above every name,
Ph. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth,
Ph. 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father
Phillipians 2:9-11 NIV

Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.

From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:

<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>

Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.

d taylor · Nov 2, 2024

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Satan is not in hell, he is on this earth and the sky roaming around.

Joseph G · Nov 2, 2024

Dale said:
Satan is often pictured on a throne in hell. Is there any truth in this picture?

Take a look at the following passage from the Epistles.

Ph. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him
the name that is above every name,
Ph. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth,
Ph. 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father
Phillipians 2:9-11 NIV

Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.

From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:

<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>

Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.

I have no Scriptural support for this - it's just my hope - that Satan will be the least in hell. That would make his torment even that much more exquisite. And gagged, too.

RandyPNW · Nov 2, 2024

Dale said:
Satan is often pictured on a throne in hell. Is there any truth in this picture?

Take a look at the following passage from the Epistles.

Ph. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him
the name that is above every name,
Ph. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth,
Ph. 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father
Phillipians 2:9-11 NIV

Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.

From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:

<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>

Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.

I think "under the earth" refers generally to those who have died. I don't think there is literally a geographical spot within the place designed to house those who are Lost. All people return to the earth in the form of "ashes," or "dust." Often they are buried or placed in terms. That is the origin of the sense of being "under the earth." It defines where people go when they have left thiw world--it doesn't suggest that go underground as disembodied spirits or will spend eternity there in resurrected bodies.

Satan may be viewed as a kind of "prince of the Abyss" because he is responsible for human beings dying and going to their graves. It is sin that caused that, and he instigated the 1st human sin.

But I also think that in the afterlife, there will be a continuation of life as it is now--only in a different context. All, both Lost and Saved, will be resurrected, but it will not be resurrection into the same physical bodies. "Resurrection" merely implies a return to physical form, and not a return to the original bodies or to their original form.

Since Satan is a higher level of being, he was created to perform higher-level tasks. So he will probably serve in a higher ruling capacity in the afterlife. But those who sin more greatly will be punished more greatly. What that involves I can't say, but he will probably be returned to do what he was originally called to do, even though he now lacks intimate relations with God.

Joseph G · Nov 2, 2024

Isaiah 14:9-20 NIV

"9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”

11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
Let the offspring of the wicked
never be mentioned again."

BobRyan · Nov 2, 2024

Dale said:
Satan is often pictured on a throne in hell. Is there any truth in this picture?

Take a look at the following passage from the Epistles.

Ph. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him
the name that is above every name,
Ph. 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth,
Ph. 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father
Phillipians 2:9-11 NIV

Hell is usually assumed to be under the earth.

From John Gill’s commentary on Phillipians 2:10:

<< … of [things] in heaven: the angels there, and the souls of departed saints, with those who are already clothed with their bodies: and [things] in earth; both good men, and bad men: and [things] under the earth; or "in the abyss", as the Ethiopic version renders it; meaning either the devils in the bottomless pit; or rather the dead bodies of men in the grave, which shall come forth and stand before the judgment seat of Christ. >>

Gill tells us that “in the abyss” is a reasonable rendering of “under the earth” in Phillipians 2:10, so Jesus is the ruler of the abyss, just as He is the ruler of heaven and earth.

Matt 16 "gates of hell" is a reference to the kingdom of Satan - at war with the Gospel, God and Christ.

Matt 10:28 "fear God who will destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" is about God casting the wicked into the fire and torment hell of Rev 20 called "the second death" and "lake of fire" in Rev 20. That is God's place for them and the devil is its victim not its ruler.

So it depends on the context as to whether Satan is the ruler or the victim of hell.

Dale · Nov 2, 2024

Joseph G said:
I have no Scriptural support for this - it's just my hope - that Satan will be the least in hell. That would make his torment even that much more exquisite. And gagged, too.

I'm not sure rank matters in hell, although it is possible that some are tormented more than others. I think you are right about Satan being gagged when he is thrown into the Lake of Fire. He will be gagged in the sense that he will not be able to influence or tempt anyone else.

Paul4JC · Nov 2, 2024

The Liturgist · Nov 3, 2024

BobRyan said:
is a reference to the kingdom of Satan - at war with the Gospel, God and Christ.

Except the idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is unscriptural. The devil is referred to as “the prince of this world” and “the prince of the power of the air”, but never as a king, and furthermore it is made clear that his actions are limited, and that he is only able to do what God allows, so that our faith might be proven, like gold tested in the fire. We see this clearly in Job, and we also see this in the Gospels, where the demons are not even able to possess a herd of swine without permission from God.

Indeed the very idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is to be rejected as dualistic. Christianity is not a dualist religion - the devil has no power and no rights and is not at war with God, (and by the way, Jesus Christ is God - why are you using the phrase “God and Christ?”), but rather was defeated the instant he rebelled. This is why we don’t even see the devil in most of the Old Testament, and within Christianity, the devil and demons are depicted as being potentially dangerous to us, but completely subservient to God - even when he stupidly tried to tempt the incarnate Word, and failed utterly.

This was one of the main objections of the early church to Manichaenism and other related sects - they taught that the good God was locked in a war with an evil demiurge, with Jesus Christ being an emanation of the good God sent to impart salvific knowledge to us, with the Gospel interpreted as being the information needed to obtain salvation, as opposed to being the account of how God has already procured salvation for the faithful.

+

I would very much like to get the views of my dearly beloved friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 and @Jipsah on this issue. @Jipsah in particular has made some remarks debunking a dualist interpretation in another thread which I found very enjoyable reading.

Bob Crowley · Nov 4, 2024

Catholic exorcists seem to agree that Satan and the demons created Hell. Despite this they hate it and don't want to go back there during exorcisms.

Exorcist Diary: Demons Hate Hell - SpiritualDirection.com

SPIRITUALDIRECTION- explores Catholic spiritual direction advice and how a deeper relationship with the spiritual aspect of being human being based on the wisdom's of the Bible, Church and the saints and angels.

spiritualdirection.com

They "cooperated" in creating it - I suppose it's a place of abject darkness where they can get away from the piercing and burning light of God, which torments them.

God didn't make Hell, so most likely Satan does rule over Hell as he and the other demons cooperated to make it.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe somewhere there's a line in his works that Lucifer is the "minister of (God's) wrath". I think there is some truth in that - I can't see God enjoying the process of eternally tormenting the damned, but the devil would since he hates everything. So they're handed over to him to be the "minister of God's wrath". I believe that Calvin might be correct in that regard.

I'm biased, but I've often claimed that the night my father died he appeared in my room. The last sight I had of him was screaming his head off and it was obvious something was coming for him. Prior to that he'd been looking over my head with either a mixture of awe or trying to hide his face behind his hands. I think when the look of awe was there he was looking at the divine judgement seat, but when he was trying to hide his face behind his hands he was seeing some of his actions in front of the divine gaze.

Whatever it was that came for him came from my left, and it terrified him to the core. I think he could see Hell approaching.

I think Satan rules Hell, and yet he hates it as do the demons. Early on in my Christian walk I went to a couple of Christians who had deliverance ministries. Nothing happened, but one of them said to me "They (demons) don't want to go!I!" They'll try anything to avoid being cast out, which the Catholic exorcists also report. Hell terrifies even the demons. That's why they always screamed when Christ drove them out.

David Lamb · Nov 4, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
I think Satan rules Hell, and yet he hates it as do the demons. Early on in my Christian walk I went to a couple of Christians who had deliverance ministries. Nothing happened, but one of them said to me "They (demons) don't want to go!I!" They'll try anything to avoid being cast out, which the Catholic exorcists also report. Hell terrifies even the demons. That's why they always screamed when Christ drove them out.

I wonder if you have any biblical basis for saying that you think Satan rules hell. As far as I can see, he will be enduring God's punishment in hell, not ruling anything or anybody. For instance:

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Re 20:10 NKJV)

Joseph G · Nov 4, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Except the idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is unscriptural. The devil is referred to as “the prince of this world” and “the prince of the power of the air”, but never as a king, and furthermore it is made clear that his actions are limited, and that he is only able to do what God allows, so that our faith might be proven, like gold tested in the fire. We see this clearly in Job, and we also see this in the Gospels, where the demons are not even able to possess a herd of swine without permission from God.

Indeed the very idea of a “Kingdom of Satan” is to be rejected as dualistic. Christianity is not a dualist religion - the devil has no power and no rights and is not at war with God, (and by the way, Jesus Christ is God - why are you using the phrase “God and Christ?”), but rather was defeated the instant he rebelled. This is why we don’t even see the devil in most of the Old Testament, and within Christianity, the devil and demons are depicted as being potentially dangerous to us, but completely subservient to God - even when he stupidly tried to tempt the incarnate Word, and failed utterly.

This was one of the main objections of the early church to Manichaenism and other related sects - they taught that the good God was locked in a war with an evil demiurge, with Jesus Christ being an emanation of the good God sent to impart salvific knowledge to us, with the Gospel interpreted as being the information needed to obtain salvation, as opposed to being the account of how God has already procured salvation for the faithful.

+

I would very much like to get the views of my dearly beloved friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 and @Jipsah on this issue. @Jipsah in particular has made some remarks debunking a dualist interpretation in another thread which I found very enjoyable reading.

Agreed that Satan is subject to God's authority.

However, he has no power? A few examples...

Revelation 12:7-10

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray."

1 Thessalonians 2:18

"For we wanted to come to you—certainly I, Paul, did, again and again—but Satan blocked our way."

biblegateway.com

Dale · Nov 4, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
Catholic exorcists seem to agree that Satan and the demons created Hell. Despite this they hate it and don't want to go back there during exorcisms.

Exorcist Diary: Demons Hate Hell - SpiritualDirection.com

SPIRITUALDIRECTION- explores Catholic spiritual direction advice and how a deeper relationship with the spiritual aspect of being human being based on the wisdom's of the Bible, Church and the saints and angels.

spiritualdirection.com

They "cooperated" in creating it - I suppose it's a place of abject darkness where they can get away from the piercing and burning light of God, which torments them.

God didn't make Hell, so most likely Satan does rule over Hell as he and the other demons cooperated to make it.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe somewhere there's a line in his works that Lucifer is the "minister of (God's) wrath". I think there is some truth in that - I can't see God enjoying the process of eternally tormenting the damned, but the devil would since he hates everything. So they're handed over to him to be the "minister of God's wrath". I believe that Calvin might be correct in that regard.

I'm biased, but I've often claimed that the night my father died he appeared in my room. The last sight I had of him was screaming his head off and it was obvious something was coming for him. Prior to that he'd been looking over my head with either a mixture of awe or trying to hide his face behind his hands. I think when the look of awe was there he was looking at the divine judgement seat, but when he was trying to hide his face behind his hands he was seeing some of his actions in front of the divine gaze.

Whatever it was that came for him came from my left, and it terrified him to the core. I think he could see Hell approaching.

I think Satan rules Hell, and yet he hates it as do the demons. Early on in my Christian walk I went to a couple of Christians who had deliverance ministries. Nothing happened, but one of them said to me "They (demons) don't want to go!I!" They'll try anything to avoid being cast out, which the Catholic exorcists also report. Hell terrifies even the demons. That's why they always screamed when Christ drove them out.

Bob Crowley: “Catholic exorcists seem to agree that Satan and the demons created Hell.”

The question is, is hell a place? Is it a location? It seems that it is more of a condition.

I’m quoting from memory, but in Goethe’s Faust, there is a scene where Faust summons a couple of demons to show to his guests. Someone asks the demons, “If you’re a demon, why aren’t you in hell? Instead of being here.” The demon replies that “Hell is not circumscribed in one place.” It is a condition, not a location.

[Jesus says:]
“When an evil [Greek: unclean] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it.
Then it says, `I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.
Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
Matthew 12:43-45 NIV

Jesus says that when a demon, or unclean spirit, is driven out it goes to “arid places.” These evil spirits wander around in the desert or empty, uninhabited places, not because they like it but because they have no place else to go. Jesus doesn’t say that expelled demons go into the bowels of the earth, or back to Satan’s headquarters to wait for their next assignment. He simply says that they wander, finding no rest. We are not told that there is any place for demons, just that they never rest.

We are given no warning about traveling though waste places with demons wandering around. It seems that when you trust in God, unclean spirits cannot hurt you.

The Liturgist · Nov 4, 2024

Joseph G said:
However, he has no power? A few examples...

No power of his own, I should say. He is only able to do what God allows Him, as we see in Job.

The Liturgist · Nov 4, 2024

Dale said:
Bob Crowley: “Catholic exorcists seem to agree that Satan and the demons created Hell.”

The question is, is hell a place? Is it a location? It seems that it is more of a condition.

I’m quoting from memory, but in Goethe’s Faust, there is a scene where Faust summons a couple of demons to show to his guests. Someone asks the demons, “If you’re a demon, why aren’t you in hell? Instead of being here.” The demon replies that “Hell is not circumscribed in one place.” It is a condition, not a location.

[Jesus says:]
“When an evil [Greek: unclean] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it.
Then it says, `I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.
Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
Matthew 12:43-45 NIV

Jesus says that when a demon, or unclean spirit, is driven out it goes to “arid places.” These evil spirits wander around in the desert or empty, uninhabited places, not because they like it but because they have no place else to go. Jesus doesn’t say that expelled demons go into the bowels of the earth, or back to Satan’s headquarters to wait for their next assignment. He simply says that they wander, finding no rest. We are not told that there is any place for demons, just that they never rest.

We are given no warning about traveling though waste places with demons wandering around. It seems that when you trust in God, unclean spirits cannot hurt you.

We do have scriptural and Patristic evidence that they will try to tempt or dissuade you if you are doing something they are opposed to. See the Life of Anthony, by St. Athanasius.

This is particularly the case with clergy and monastics. The best defense is nepsis, a wakeful and careful adherence to the Christian faith and to prayer.

Bob Crowley · Nov 4, 2024

David Lamb said:
I wonder if you have any biblical basis for saying that you think Satan rules hell. As far as I can see, he will be enduring God's punishment in hell, not ruling anything or anybody. For instance:

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Re 20:10 NKJV)

The "lake of fire and brimstone" has to do with the end of time and the final judgement.

In the meantime Satan rules in hell, as you'll find out you if you go there.

Whether Hell is a place or state of being is academic - for those who have the misfortune to spend eternity there or in the "lake" it won't make any difference.

I think it is both - in Christ's parable of Dives and Lazarus He stated that "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us ..." The fact of a "great gulf" implies a "place".

Dale · Nov 4, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
The "lake of fire and brimstone" has to do with the end of time and the final judgement.

In the meantime Satan rules in hell, as you'll find out you if you go there.

Whether Hell is a place or state of being is academic - for those who have the misfortune to spend eternity there or in the "lake" it won't make any difference.

I think it is both - in Christ's parable of Dives and Lazarus He stated that "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us ..." The fact of a "great gulf" implies a "place".

Bob Crowley: "I think it is both - in Christ's parable of Dives and Lazarus He stated that "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us ..." The fact of a "great gulf" implies a "place".

Bob, the "great gulf" simply means that it cannot be bridged. Once a person is in hell, they are not getting out. As I said before, it makes far more sense for hell to be a condition. It doesn't seem to be a place in the Matthew 12 passage that I quoted.

"

Jipsah · Nov 5, 2024

The Liturgist said:
I would very much like to get the views of my dearly beloved friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian @prodromos @FenderTL5 and @Jipsah on this issue. @Jipsah in particular has made some remarks debunking a dualist interpretation in another thread which I found very enjoyable reading.

Just a hearty "Amen!" to everything you just said, Brother!

Jipsah · Nov 5, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
Catholic exorcists seem to agree that Satan and the demons created Hell.

That seems unlikely. The idea that Satan and his lot created anything at all smacks of Manicheanism, and I can't see any Catholic of embracing such a notion.

Bob Crowley said:
God didn't make Hell

Again, I can't agree with that as worded. I can entertain the idea that Old Nick & Co corrupted part of God's creation and turned into into a hell, but as to actually creating anything, they didn't, and can't. They can befoul, but not create.

Bob Crowley said:
, so most likely Satan does rule over Hell as he and the other demons cooperated to make it.

Rather like lording it over a cesspool.

Bob Crowley said:
I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe somewhere there's a line in his works that Lucifer is the "minister of (God's) wrath". I think there is some truth in that - I can't see God enjoying the process of eternally tormenting the damned, but the devil would since he hates everything. So they're handed over to him to be the "minister of God's wrath".

I find that idea disturbing for a number of reasons. I'm still having problems reconciling " God so loved the world..." with His having a staff torturer. I'd like to get my brother The Liturgist's thoughts on that, maybe in new thread.

Jipsah · Nov 5, 2024

Joseph G said:
Agreed that Satan is subject to God's authority.

Yep.

Joseph G said:
However, he has no power? A few examples...

Revelation 12:7-10

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.

So they attempted a coup d'état, and got themselves ignominiously chucked out of Heaven. It doesn't seem like it takes that much power to be given the bum's rush.

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