Does mass-baptism in the ocean count?

[Midlifestart]

I am planning to be baptized in the Episcopal church I've been attending. The priest would prefer I wait until fall, so that the maximum number of congregants will be in attendance. While I understand why this might be a good thing (would give me an opportunity to being welcomed by a lot more people, connect with them, etc, and would be inspiring for the congregation), I am eager to do it earlier. Because I've lived a very difficult and painful life until now, the priest said he would consider an earlier date if I feel it is necessary (lots of really unfortunate baggage here and I need to put my old self to rest sooner rather than later).

I just heard on the radio that there is a large Christian music and worship festival at a beach in my state in a few weeks. Not only is my favorite Christian rock band performing, they are doing non-denominational ocean baptisms at the end of the event. I called the place that is sponsoring it and they said there is no baptismal certificate given. I surmise that many of the people getting in the water are being re-baptized, but I'm sure there would be some like me who've never been baptized.

So I'm wondering--for my own peace of mind (because I REALLY feel I need to get baptized ASAP) could I do the ocean baptism and then go through the formal baptism later on at my church (which would enable me to be a member of the Episcopal church)? My church only accepts baptisms from other denominations if there is a baptismal certificate, so while the ocean baptism wouldn't count with them, I'm wondering whether it counts in general. I'm thinking I could just go through it twice and the 2nd one would be more formal and some of my friends would attend, but the ocean one could be my own personal testimony to my newfound faith.

Thoughts?

 

[Incariol]

I am planning to be baptized in the Episcopal church I've been attending. The priest would prefer I wait until fall, so that the maximum number of congregants will be in attendance. While I understand why this might be a good thing (would give me an opportunity to being welcomed by a lot more people, connect with them, etc, and would be inspiring for the congregation), I am eager to do it earlier. Because I've lived a very difficult and painful life until now, the priest said he would consider an earlier date if I feel it is necessary (lots of really unfortunate baggage here and I need to put my old self to rest sooner rather than later).

I just heard on the radio that there is a large Christian music and worship festival at a beach in my state in a few weeks. Not only is my favorite Christian rock band performing, they are doing non-denominational ocean baptisms at the end of the event. I called the place that is sponsoring it and they said there is no baptismal certificate given. I surmise that many of the people getting in the water are being re-baptized, but I'm sure there would be some like me who've never been baptized.

So I'm wondering--for my own peace of mind (because I REALLY feel I need to get baptized ASAP) could I do the ocean baptism and then go through the formal baptism later on at my church (which would enable me to be a member of the Episcopal church)? My church only accepts baptisms from other denominations if there is a baptismal certificate, so while the ocean baptism wouldn't count with them, I'm wondering whether it counts in general. I'm thinking I could just go through it twice and the 2nd one would be more formal and some of my friends would attend, but the ocean one could be my own personal testimony to my newfound faith.

Thoughts?

Well, consistently throughout the history of Christianity, second baptisms have been viewed as heretical. There is only one baptism, it isn't something you really get to repeat multiple times.

"
4One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism."


Eph 4:4-5


I don't understand why you want this nondenom thing at all, if you are so eager to be baptized, just ask your priest to do it like he said he would.

 

[tturt]

It's amazing how much we get the supernatural and natural things confused.

 

[Midlifestart]

Incariol thank you for your response. After I posted, I did some more research on the Episcopal church's views on this and realized that it is not possible to do it twice.

tturt I do not understand your response, probably due to the fact that I am so new to Christianity (was not raised with it, am not "coming back" to it, have had no exposure to it until a few months ago when I connected with Christ very suddenly while praying with a friend).

 

[Lee52]

"Does mass - baptism in the ocean count?'

Baptism of a new Christian in any body of water by another Christian counts to GOD.

That your denomination must have a baptism certificate in order for it to count is a man's rule, not GOD's rule.

How many early 1st century Christians, do you suppose, got paper certificates of baptism?

 

[Aibrean]

I'm not sure why your church is waiting since the Lenten part of the church calendar is over. If the baptism is done by a Christian with water and in the name of the Triune God, yes...it counts. Remember, it's God working in baptism - not the other way around.

 

[LilLamb219]

Since you crave to be baptized, approach your priest once again and let him know your earnest about having it done sooner rather than later. If he hesitates and still insists on the fall (I don't know why he would make you wait so long), then let him know you're interested in having it done in the ocean.

God doesn't need to do re-baptisms...He does them right the first time

 

[Midlifestart]

Thank you again for these really helpful responses. LilLamb I believe he wants me to wait until fall so that more people in the congregation will be there to support and welcome me. There is a pretty sizable drop in attendance over the summer. I know if I push for it, he will probably agree to do it earlier. Right now, I need to finish reading the literature he gave me because he wants to meet with me again once I am done. I am close to being done with it.

I also get the sense that at least in the Episcopal church, they don't just do immediate baptisms unless there is a real need for it. Given my personal issues, there is a chance the priest will see that I desperately need to do this now. When I see him on Sunday, I may mention to him that I am going to see my favorite Christian rock band at that festival next week and that they are doing ocean baptisms there. I will tell him how tempted I am to just do it, but that I am willing to wait to do it in my home church. And then I'll leave it in God's hands.

Lee the baptismal certificate is required in order to be accepted as a full member of the church (in order to be able to vote, etc).

 

[paul1149]

This is a conflict between God's way and man's way. In God's eyes, of course a mass baptism would count. Phillip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch immediately; there was no mandatory wait, there were no classes, there wasn't even any follow-up. There wasn't even a sinner's prayer - just an acknowledgment of belief on the Christ, Jesus. Same thing happened with the Philippian jailer and his family in Acts 16. That's the way the early, dynamic church operated, and frankly I can't wait until we get back to where we once were. Your soul is crying out for baptism - what a wonderful thing that truly is. And with your fav band and the whole mass ocean scene, I bet it would be an awesome experience. But you need to wait and jump through hoops? It is precisely because we've built up rules and regulations and hierarchies that we've become so moribund.

As Ephesians 4 teaches, there is one baptism. It doesn't matter where it occurs or who administers it. It doesn't even matter if it's repeated, though there generally is no need to do that. We are all baptized into Christ, and just as there is only one Christ, there is only one baptism and one church.

 

[Lee52]

This is a conflict between God's way and man's way. In God's eyes, of course a mass baptism would count. Phillip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch immediately; there was no mandatory wait, there were no classes, there wasn't even any follow-up. There wasn't even a sinner's prayer - just an acknowledgment of belief on the Christ, Jesus. Same thing happened with the Philippian jailer and his family in Acts 16. That's the way the early, dynamic church operated, and frankly I can't wait until we get back to where we once were. Your soul is crying out for baptism - what a wonderful thing that truly is. And with your fav band and the whole mass ocean scene, I bet it would be an awesome experience. But you need to wait and jump through hoops? It is precisely because we've built up rules and regulations and hierarchies that we've become so moribund.

As Ephesians 4 teaches, there is one baptism. It doesn't matter where it occurs or who administers it. It doesn't even matter if it's repeated, though there generally is no need to do that. We are all baptized into Christ, and just as there is only one Christ, there is only one baptism and one church.

 

[tturt]

midlifestart, I apologize for my earlier post. My dh and I attended the Episcopal church previously so I understand what you're saying. But I get concerned sometimes about some of our traditions.

Again I'm sorry.

Really glad that you've given your heart to Yahweh and agree with Lee52 and Paul1149 that it's wonderful how your heart is crying out for baptism.

 

[Midlifestart]

Thank you tturt. I appreciate it.

It's true--my soul is really crying out for baptism. I am carrying so much guilt and shame because of very sad, dysfunctional family dynamics, years of emotional abuse, and recent very unfortunate events in my life related to the guilt and shame my family continues to try to heap on me. It has been truly liberating for me to know that Jesus died and lifted these things from me, but I won't feel truly free of the pain until I can be baptiszed and cleansed of the old me. That's a lot to have to carry around all summer and there really is no reason why I should.

I'm going to try to contact the priest today.

 

[Aibrean]

If they won't let you - can't a video of you being baptized count as a certificate? I mean they can witness it being done and hear the words.

I will say in my church I only waited about 1-2 weeks before I was baptized after expressing interest. When you realize the importance of baptism (not always stressed in non-denominational churches...much of my life was spent there) you don't want to wait around any more.

 

[chilehed]

Midlifestart,

I'm led to believe that the Episcopal understanding of Baptism is similar to that of the Catholic - we both believe that it's not merely a washing with water but that it actually has a spiritual effect on our souls. It's a work of God, not of man, so in general one would want to be baptised as soon as possible in order to benefit from the grace that it provides.

From here on I'll give you the Catholic point of view (which, of course, is the one I think is correct. ) Maybe it will help illuminate your situation.

A valid baptism requires proper matter, form, and intent. The matter is flowing water, which means sprinking, pouring or immersion. The form is "Name, I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". The intent is to do what Christ intended us to do, which is what the Chruch has done since the beginning (in other words, you don't have to have the Catholic belief in what Baptism is in order to do it validly).

I don't know of any reason that seawater isn't valid matter. Some people might pick at me for being legalistic, but I doubt that anyone would say that soda pop would be valid, or urine, so certainly it's a universal belief that there are limits on what is valid matter and what is not.

As for the form, if the mass baptism means that everyone dunks themselves at once and someone says "You all are baptised in the name of the
Father, etc." over a bullhorn, then that would not be valid. Baptism is a personal act, it's God placing a seal on your soul and delivering you from the state of original sin, so it needs to be done personally and not corporately.

This sheds light on the reason that the Chruch is concerned about baptismal records. Water baptism is the normal way in which one becomes part of the Body of Christ, and since it has an indelible effect on the soul one can be valivly baptised only once. In a very real way, second attempts or renewals are a statement of distrust in God (He didn't follow through the first time?), and so are understood to be blasphemous. When I entered the Catholic Church there was some question about whether or not my childhood baptism was valid, and so the priest gave me a conditional baptism by saying "Tom, if you have not already been baptised, I baptise you in the name, etc".

So as I said, in general you'd want to do it ASAP, and if you're really hungry to do it right away then go talk to your priest about it. But don't be scrupulous, because God knows your heart quite well. If you want to be baptised but can't be for some reason (such as, your Bishop has said that he wants you to wait), then he won't count it against you if you die first. The Catholic Church refers to that as the baptism of desire. It falls out of a general principle that God does not require us to do something which we are unable to do.

Anyway, I hope this helps. You're in my prayers.

 

[Aibrean]

^ I generally agree with all of that.

 

[Midlifestart]

chilehed thanks for the insights--they really are helpful.

I had a talk this morning with a colleague who is going to nondenominational divinity school in preparation for ordination. He explained the benefits of being baptized with the entire community with whom I plan to worship and it made sense to me. He also cleared up some confusion I had. I was under the impression that I could not "convert" to Christianity until I was baptized. This was probably my biggest reason for wanting to do it quickly. I not only need to put the old me to rest and be symbolically reborn in Christ Jesus, I have a strong desire to leave the faith of my birth as quickly as I can (for reasons I can't even comprehend or explain).

But, from what I have since read and from what my colleague told me, baptism is an outward testimony of what has already occurred inwardly for me. So having already accepted Jesus as my savior, believing he was bon the Son of God, that he died for my sins, and was resurrected, and because I know I have received the Holy Spirit inside me, I have, in effect already converted. My baptism, whenever it does occur, will be symbolic and a public testimony of what I already believe. Icing on the cake, so to speak. Yes it's a sacrament, at least according to the Anglicans, but for all intents and purposes, I am already a Christian. So I feel much better knowing that.

If I did not mention it before, or in another thread, I was born Jewish but raised with very little observance (my father and brother are atheists). I had a sudden, pretty amazing, radical religious transformation a couple of months ago when a Christian friend asked my permission to pray with him (we were praying for my kid, who is very mentally and physically ill and recently became estranged from me).

My sudden realization that I am a Christian has been profoundly freeing and beautiful. I really do want to share it with my new church family rather than dunking in the ocean with strangers, even though I do crave completing the baptismal process sooner rather than later. Also, the few Christian friends I have outside of church as so incredibly excited about this that they have expressed a desire to attend my baptism. It would be all the more meaningful to me to have them there, particularly since I will not have any family in attendance.

One last thing--the ocean baptism I mentioned is not a mass-baptism. It is my understanding that they would have one pastor or his "associate pastors" baptizing each person individually. It would not be a case of one pastor pronouncing a huge mass of people as baptized and having them all jump in the water at the same time. I do not know, however, whether the associate pastors are actually ordained.

Thanks again for all the insights. I've emailed my priest to find out when we can meet again, but I feel much better now.

 

[Midlifestart]

I realize the title of my thread said "mass-baptism". I had not called the sponsoring agency to get more specifics about the process until after I posted. So "mass-baptism" is sort of a misnomer I think.

 

[Aibrean]

If that's what you believe regarding baptism, you shouldn't be going to an Anglican/Epsicopol church (granted it would be good to go - just you have very conflicting beliefs). They, along with myself, do not believe that baptism is merely symbolic or a "sign". A sacrament is God working his grace. Baptism is so much more than being dunked or poured or sprinkled with water.

 

[Midlifestart]

I don't think it's a case of having conflicting beliefs as much as it is a case of being uninformed and basing what I know on what I am hearing/reading from a variety of sources and not really knowing (yet) what to believe. So saying I "shouldn't be going" to an Episcopal church is a bit premature, doncha think?

 

[LilLamb219]

I don't think it's a case of having conflicting beliefs as much as it is a case of being uninformed and basing what I know on what I am hearing/reading from a variety of sources and not really knowing (yet) what to believe. So saying I "shouldn't be going" to an Episcopal church is a bit premature, doncha think?

Wouldn't you want to worship with like-minded people though? If you're attending that church and wanting to be a member, you wouldn't want to have differing beliefs, especially if you plan on taking communion with them.