Differences between Presbyterian (PCA) & United Methodist?

[Lily5]

Hello! My husband and I live very close to a Presbyterian (PCA) church and a United Methodist church and are thinking about visiting each.

Can anyone explain the main differences?

 

[FireDragon76]

PCA is Reformed/Calvinist. The United Methodists are relatively liberal and Wesleyan/Arminian. Other than that, there are going to be a lot of similarities.

 

[Lily5]

PCA is Reformed/Calvinist. The United Methodists are relatively liberal and Wesleyan/Arminian. Other than that, there are going to be a lot of similarities.

This is probably a dumb question but do you mind explaining the differences between these very simply?

 

[FireDragon76]

They are both influenced heavily by the Swiss Reformation: they both are somewhat rationalistic and more or less anti-Catholic traditionally, they focus on preaching, they have a low view of the sacraments (symbolic or spiritual interpretations of the sacraments are common), and they both have infant baptism but emphasize conversion experiences (being "born again"). One difference would be that Methodists are influenced by German Pietism and the focus on the emotions, the inner life, and holiness, whereas Presbyterians are more intellectual or cerebral in tone.

The PCA is a somewhat reactionary expression of the Presbyterian church owing to disputes in the late 19th century over biblical inerrancy and modernism. They don't ordain women and they don't accept Catholic baptisms as real as they view their religion as fatally flawed. You will find some moderates among them, though. United Methodists are relatively liberal and a lot less polemical about doctrines and traditions of other Christians, they are in partial fellowship with several other Christian bodies, including the Presbyterian Church - USA and the Evangelical Lutherans. Though anti-Catholicism is part of its history, today that is much less evidenced in actual practice.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Presbyterians are anti-Sacramental? Or is that an overstatement?

Methodists believe in the Real Presence in Holy Communion, in at least some sense. But that was something I had to read rather than actually encountering it in the service, in most cases. I have been to some Methodist services that have a bare hint of such things as a procession and priestly vestments, and some others that were indistinguishable from any evangelical-style church as far as the service being singing a few songs, hearing a sermon, announcements at some point, and that's the service.

Iirc, Methodists I have delved into have also affirmed speaking in tongues as part of their official doctrine, but I have never seen it evidenced or acknowledged in any service or teaching, and would be surprised if very many members practiced or even knew it was in their teaching.

Presbyterians I am barely familiar with in terms of practice, but I agree that they are much more intellectually bent on pretty much everything.

Both have somewhat liberal tendencies when viewed in relation to all of the Christian spectrum (but many denominations are).

 

[FireDragon76]

Presbyterians are anti-Sacramental? Or is that an overstatement?

Definitely an overstatement. But they tend towards the low end, without necessarily being strictly memorialists. By the late 19th century, the doctrine of the real presence had degraded in most of these Reformed churches in the US to the point that the spiritual meaning was largely absent (the minority Mercersburg Theology was probably the last stand against rationalism in this area).

Methodists believe in the Real Presence in Holy Communion, in at least some sense. But that was something I had to read rather than actually encountering it in the service, in most cases.

They have similar attitudes to Presbyterians, especially in practice. Communion is observed more frequently (usually twice a month, vs. in Presbyterian churches where it can vary a lot), and perhaps the views are just barely higher than in Presbyterian churches.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hello! My husband and I live very close to a Presbyterian (PCA) church and a United Methodist church and are thinking about visiting each.

Can anyone explain the main differences?

I'm not sure I can compare and contrast them very well. I've had some experience with the RPCES, which ended up merging into the PCA. Generally the PCA does what the RPCES did, so I will speak of the PCA.

The PCA follows the Westminster Confession, original version, fairly closely. That is available on line. Just be sure you seek out the historical document and not some adapted document. The PCA doesn't go for any heavily modified document that other kinds of Presbyterians might use.

The PCA considers Catholics to be 'papists'. My wife was a member of the RPCES before she married me. They, the ministers, would have nothing to do with our wedding because the Westminster Confession says Christians should not marry papists. She is now Catholic and happily so. We had a Catholic wedding and many of the members came to the wedding anyhow although the ministers had to boycott it.

The PCA stands for a kind of orthodox belief in the Trinity, in the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ, and many of the basic teachings in faith and morals that the Orthodox and Catholics believe in. But they add on to that the particulars of Calvinism such as predestination. They are a serious sort, countercultural, faithful. If it were not for the predestination thing and their anti-Catholic bent they would be high on the list for me to recommend for Protestants who simply couldn't become Catholic. Actually, they are high on my list even with those issues.

Go and see, but my guess is that whatever your husband hates about Orthodoxy he will also find in the PCA. Just a hunch. You are in an interesting position. The Orthodox would have you rebaptized. The PCA would have you and probably your husband rebaptized. The Methodists might not care, but that's not a great reason to become Methodist. Is there any way your husband's anti-Orthodoxy can be tempered? I'm guessing his anti-Catholicism is mostly because of the similarities with Orthodoxy, although the Orthodox can also be very anti-Catholic. It seems to me you are giving up a lot to satisfy your husband. In a way, that is honorable, but has he asked too much?

 

[Lily5]

I'm not sure I can compare and contrast them very well. I've had some experience with the RPCES, which ended up merging into the PCA. Generally the PCA does what the RPCES did, so I will speak of the PCA.

The PCA follows the Westminster Confession, original version, fairly closely. That is available on line. Just be sure you seek out the historical document and not some adapted document. The PCA doesn't go for any heavily modified document that other kinds of Presbyterians might use.

The PCA considers Catholics to be 'papists'. My wife was a member of the RPCES before she married me. They, the ministers, would have nothing to do with our wedding because the Westminster Confession says Christians should not marry papists. She is now Catholic and happily so. We had a Catholic wedding and many of the members came to the wedding anyhow although the ministers had to boycott it.

The PCA stands for a kind of orthodox belief in the Trinity, in the full divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ, and many of the basic teachings in faith and morals that the Orthodox and Catholics believe in. But they add on to that the particulars of Calvinism such as predestination. They are a serious sort, countercultural, faithful. If it were not for the predestination thing and their anti-Catholic bent they would be high on the list for me to recommend for Protestants who simply couldn't become Catholic. Actually, they are high on my list even with those issues.

Go and see, but my guess is that whatever your husband hates about Orthodoxy he will also find in the PCA. Just a hunch. You are in an interesting position. The Orthodox would have you rebaptized. The PCA would have you and probably your husband rebaptized. The Methodists might not care, but that's not a great reason to become Methodist. Is there any way your husband's anti-Orthodoxy can be tempered? I'm guessing his anti-Catholicism is mostly because of the similarities with Orthodoxy, although the Orthodox can also be very anti-Catholic. It seems to me you are giving up a lot to satisfy your husband. In a way, that is honorable, but has he asked too much?

Thank you for remembering my other posts!

He doesn't like the 'rituals' in the Orthodox Church, and he thinks the Catholic Church will be very similar to the GO church. The GO was very accepting of me being Catholic when they married us actually!

He prefers a church that is more laid back. He likes singing etc that the GO and Catholic Church does not have. I do think my husband will gravitate to a ND Church (he likes the one we have been attending). It sounds like he may also like the Methodist Church. He is willing to visit any church except for the nearby Catholic Church. I don't take offense because I was not a Church go-er while growing up although it would be nice to at least do a visit for 'comparison'.

Why is PCA so anti Catholic? I didn't realize this.

 

[Albion]

Presbyterians are anti-Sacramental? Or is that an overstatement?

An overstatement.

Methodists believe in the Real Presence in Holy Communion, in at least some sense. But that was something I had to read rather than actually encountering it in the service, in most cases. I have been to some Methodist services that have a bare hint of such things as a procession and priestly vestments, and some others that were indistinguishable from any evangelical-style church as far as the service being singing a few songs, hearing a sermon, announcements at some point, and that's the service.

Officially, both Presbyterians and Methodists accept the Real Presence, although you're right to say it's often hard to find that verified in actual practice.

Iirc, Methodists I have delved into have also affirmed speaking in tongues as part of their official doctrine, but I have never seen it evidenced or acknowledged in any service or teaching, and would be surprised if very many members practiced or even knew it was in their teaching.

Presbyterians I am barely familiar with in terms of practice, but I agree that they are much more intellectually bent on pretty much everything.

Or we may say that Methodists are famous for belief in Free Will whereas Presbyterians are famous for Calvinist beliefs. And this DOES (IMO) show up in practice, unlike the matter of Real Presence.

Both have somewhat liberal tendencies when viewed in relation to all of the Christian spectrum (but many denominations are).

Not the PCA, however. It split from the much more liberal PC(USA) because people were opposed to both the liberal theology and politics which have been gaining ground rapidly in the Presbyterian Church (USA) of late.

 

[Lily5]

Just a general question for anyone with any thoughts on the matter-

Would you say PCUSA (not PCA) is more liberal than a Methodist Church?

 

[FireDragon76]

Methodists would probably be a better choice if you want a traditional American expression of evangelical religion that is both traditional in worship and "typical". There's nothing that really sticks out about it as highly polemical or sectarian. Methodists are all about loving Jesus and doing good works, beyond that they really don't emphasize the kind of minute distinctions that conservative Presbyterians do.

PC-USA is similar to the Methodist church in its social statements and in its general liberalism. But they seem to be more intellectually inclined, as all Reformed/Presbyterian churches tend to be.

 

[Albion]

Just a general question for anyone with any thoughts on the matter-

Would you say PCUSA (not PCA) is more liberal than a Methodist Church?

I'd say "slightly." BUT that's a reference to the two denominations overall. It really does come down to what each local congregation is like. In both bodies, some are more conservative (therefore, less in step with their national bodies) and others are cut more out of the mold of their national churches and are more liberal, therefore.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If I am not mistaken, don't Methodists also have a form of infant baptism? I know of one person for sure who was "sprinkled" as they say in a Methodist church about 60 years ago, and considered that a baptism (which was later rejected by the Baptist/evangelical community and required rebaptism).


And just as an aside the Orthodox Church very rarely re-baptizes. What is required, officially, is a Trinitarian formula baptism, from those who have the same understanding of the Trinity. Catholic baptism is definitely so, as are those of most denominations. Oneness, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon, and any form such as "Mother, Son ... etc" would require rebaptism. I think some Russian jurisdictions were (or maybe still are) requiring rebaptism at some points, but that is actually not the Orthodox position, to rebaptize one and all. Just to clarify. "We believe in ... one baptism for the remission of sins." We do Chrismate, since this is not performed by other Christians, and believe that God will complete anything potentially lacking, but that is His business.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, Methodists do baptize infants, usually by aspersion (sprinkling). That is how I was baptized. But like Presbyterians, they also emphasize a conversion type experience later in life.

Baptism in the Methodist church has a low theology associated with it, similar to the Presbyterian church. Lower than in the Lutheran or Catholic churches. It is mostly just a symbol, similar to Communion. It does have some spiritual significance but preaching and adult conversion are emphasized moreso.

 

[Albion]

If I am not mistaken, don't Methodists also have a form of infant baptism? I know of one person for sure who was "sprinkled" as they say in a Methodist church about 60 years ago, and considered that a baptism (which was later rejected by the Baptist/evangelical community and required rebaptism).

Yes, Methodists (United Methodists) do baptize infants. The problem you mention here with that person you know lies totally with the Baptists and their view of Baptism.

 

[chevyontheriver]

He doesn't like the 'rituals' in the Orthodox Church, and he thinks the Catholic Church will be very similar to the GO church. The GO was very accepting of me being Catholic when they married us actually!

Some Orthodox want a reunion with the Catholic Church and others want nothing to do with it. It depends. There are virulently hostile Orthodox and some more irenic ones. I'm glad your experience was positive. I'm on the side of the irenic ones, hoping for reunion, but not holding my breath.

He prefers a church that is more laid back. He likes singing etc that the GO and Catholic Church does not have.

We sing at my parish. Lots of music. Not laid back though.

I do think my husband will gravitate to a ND Church (he likes the one we have been attending). It sounds like he may also like the Methodist Church. He is willing to visit any church except for the nearby Catholic Church. I don't take offense because I was not a Church go-er while growing up although it would be nice to at least do a visit for 'comparison'.

You missed out on something. The Catholic Church is complicated in a way that the Nondenominationals will never be, but it's a good place mostly. Sounds like your limits are either one particular ND community or another particular UM community. Choose wisely. It's hard to compare because the ND place could be almost anything depending on how they do things at this particular place. That sort of goes for the UM as well, but less so. On the ground experience will be the only way to tell. Do me one favor. Look into 'the Benedict Option' and assess which of the two will be the best in that regard.

Why is PCA so anti Catholic? I didn't realize this.

It's a reformation thing. They are more attuned to reformation sentiments than many more liberal sorts of Protestants. The PCA is a conservative offshoot of the Southern Presbyterians before those folks reunited with the Northern Presbyterians to form the PCUSA. PCUSA is much more liberal, following a more modified version of the Westminster Confession. The PCA is more like the Catholic Church in morals while the PCUSA would be more in tune with the society in general. Except for the anti-Catholicism (and the predestination thing) of the PCA I would consider them the better kind of Presbyterians in my own subjective valuation because they are the more 'conservative' theologically.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If singing is the issue with Orthodoxy, it depends on the local parish (which among the Greeks has much to do with area of the country). In some areas, all you hear is traditional chant. In our particular parish, we sing about half of the Liturgy (I know, I'm in the choir and it's hard work, lol), with everything else except the homily chanted. A different jurisdiction could be something else.

If the issue is ritual, that is going to be present in every Orthodox Church.

In many/most I have seen, there is a certain degree of freedom. But there is also a certain type of order. (Comparing to some non-denominationals here.)

Most of the non-denoms I am very familiar with are decidedly Pentecostal in flavor, sometimes outright wild abandon in worship. Others I have attended are Reformation types, very staid and ordered (one even had a full orchestra, and standing/sitting/singing was completely in compliance with the direction of the pastor). So it really depends.

 

[Lily5]

Some Orthodox want a reunion with the Catholic Church and others want nothing to do with it. It depends. There are virulently hostile Orthodox and some more irenic ones. I'm glad your experience was positive. I'm on the side of the irenic ones, hoping for reunion, but not holding my breath.

We sing at my parish. Lots of music. Not laid back though.

You missed out on something. The Catholic Church is complicated in a way that the Nondenominationals will never be, but it's a good place mostly. Sounds like your limits are either one particular ND community or another particular UM community. Choose wisely. It's hard to compare because the ND place could be almost anything depending on how they do things at this particular place. That sort of goes for the UM as well, but less so. On the ground experience will be the only way to tell. Do me one favor. Look into 'the Benedict Option' and assess which of the two will be the best in that regard.

It's a reformation thing. They are more attuned to reformation sentiments than many more liberal sorts of Protestants. The PCA is a conservative offshoot of the Southern Presbyterians before those folks reunited with the Northern Presbyterians to form the PCUSA. PCUSA is much more liberal, following a more modified version of the Westminster Confession. The PCA is more like the Catholic Church in morals while the PCUSA would be more in tune with the society in general. Except for the anti-Catholicism (and the predestination thing) of the PCA I would consider them the better kind of Presbyterians in my own subjective valuation because they are the more 'conservative' theologically.

Excuse my ignorance, I didn't know what the Benedict Option was so I googled it and briefly read this page (https://world.wng.org/2015/06/rod_dreher_explains_the_benedict_option). The problems with America (for example, gay marriage) is partially why I want to get involved and involve my daughter in the church. I am unsure how the Benedict Option can help decide on a church, but I think a church that agrees with the school of thought I read in the article is one I want to be a part of.

 

[Albion]

Excuse my ignorance, I didn't know what the Benedict Option was so I googled it and briefly read this page (https://world.wng.org/2015/06/rod_dreher_explains_the_benedict_option). The problems with America (for example, gay marriage) is partially why I want to get involved and involve my daughter in the church. I am unsure how the Benedict Option can help decide on a church, but I think a church that agrees with the school of thought I read in the article is one I want to be a part of.

If those are your particular concerns, and you have two possible choices for a home church, I'd say the PCA would be your best bet. There are some theological differences between the two as has been discussed already, and each congregation can differ from the next one within any denomination, but on balance I'd say PCA. However, the only way to be sure is to visit both a few times, read their websites and those of the mother churches involved, and get a better feel for each one. If only these two are under consideration, that shouldn't be too difficult to do.

By the way, the PCA was founded largely through the efforts of Dr. D. James Kennedy, who used to be seen on TV. He was well-known for traditional, Bible-based theology, but also for his patriotism. Some people think that sermons on the faith of the founding fathers and commemorations in church of such occasions as Independence Day, etc. have no place in church, but you may be one of those who has a different opinion about that.

 

[Lily5]

If those are your particular concerns, and you have two possible choices for a home church, I'd say the PCA would be your best bet. There are some theological differences between the two as has been discussed already, and each congregation can differ from the next one within any denomination, but on balance I'd say PCA. However, the only way to be sure is to visit both a few times, read their websites and those of the mother churches involved, and get a better feel for each one. If only these two are under consideration, that shouldn't be too difficult to do.

By the way, the PCA was founded largely through the efforts of Dr. D. James Kennedy, who used to be seen on TV. He was well-known for traditional, Bible-based theology, but also for his patriotism. Some people think that sermons on the faith of the founding fathers and commemorations in church of such occasions as Independence Day, etc. have no place in church, but you may be one of those who has a different opinion about that.

Thank you for the suggestions! From what I have read, I do think PCA would be a good fit although I won't know for sure until I have visited a bit.

Any other church suggestions are welcome. PCA and United Methodist are ones that I know are very nearby, so that's why I was mostly looking into them at the moment.