Congregational vs Presbyterian: What's the Difference?

[WisdomTree]

Within the Reformed community, there are two well known groups (excluding the continental Reformed Church); Presbyterians and Congregationalists.

As far as I'm concerned, they're both Reformed Calvinists in their theology, but apart from the obvious polity difference, what are the differences between these two groups?

Thanks

 

[bbbbbbb]

Both have similar theological spectra ranging from liberal to conservative. At the liberal end there is virtually no difference between the PCUSA and the UCC. At the conservative end there is very little difference, as well. The difference really does seem to come down to polity IMO.

 

[PaladinValer]

It has only to do with polity.

The very term presbyterian in and of itself is a term of polity; same with congregationalism and episcopalian. Episcopalian is polity of bishops, presbyterianism is polity of priests/elders, and congregationalism is polity of independent congregations.

 

[WisdomTree]

Surely there's more considering they are separate denomination!

 

[PaladinValer]

Surely there's more considering they are separate denomination!

Why does there automatically have to be more?

 

[Monseigneur_Gentilhomme]

Let's not talk in terms of present day institutions but historical 16th and 17th theology.

The Continental Reformed produced Presbyterians in Scotland vis-a-vis Knox, with a slight difference on emphesis on Church Courts and whether there are 2 or 3 offices. However, during the time of the Puritans there were two groups that were both practicing in the Anglican Church (Episcopalian government).

The First group of Puritans were the Presbyterians. They were the majority and wanted to reform (in belief in what we call the Regulative Principle) into a more Scottish/ Continental system of various Elders and Courts.

The Second Group of Puritans were the Congregationalists. There were a strong minority, but had the stronger writers, debaters, and theologians. They also believed in the Regulative Principle and believe that the New Testament commands congregational government.

Under Cromwell's Commonwealth, both were tollerated in England and before that the Westminster Assembly came together (featuring representives from all sides) and produced the Westminster Standards. Though these documents were clearly Presbyterian in nature, there were at points vague language (because of congregationalists) that lessened the authority of courts as opposed to what was existing in Scotland (see Know's book of order and confession). Scotland ended up adopting this.

As Puritanism died, many congregationalists moved on into the Colonies, and they produced their own theologians and institutions in due time. However before Presbyterianism died in England (through acts of uniformity) the Salvoy declaration was written which was a congregationalist modification of the Westminster Confession of Faith. Rumor has it that John Owen helped in writing this, though we are not sure.

This Confession was used for a little bit but eventually Congregationalists, though produced some of the greatest Reformed theologians, also produced some of its weirdest heretics (Ann Hutchinson being one of many) and ideas.

Eventually the old institutions on both ends became liberal torward the end of the 19th Century. Buy the 1950s both the institutional UCC and PCUS/PCUSA/PCUS were generally perceived to be liberal by traditionalists or merely evangelical at best.

 

[WisdomTree]

So there's not much doctrinal differences?

 

[hedrick]

Right. Congregational and Presbyterian both historically and today are very similar doctrinally.

 

[PaladinValer]

So there's not much doctrinal differences?

Correct. It is a difference in polity; church governance. For them, no bishops, but the congregationalists are more radical in that, to them, the congregation is the lowest common denominator whereas for presbyterians the elder is, and they still have synods of elders.

 

[Picky Picky]

And in England they are not separate denominations any longer, having come together as the United Reformed Church. So somehow they resolved their polity differences.

 

[WisdomTree]

In that case, is their an "Episcopal" version of a Reformed Church?

 

[bbbbbbb]

In that case, is their an "Episcopal" version of a Reformed Church?

Elements of the Anglican Church are Reformed in their theology. Certainly, the 39 Articles of Anglicanism are a strong reflection of Reformed theology.

 

[PaladinValer]

In that case, is their an "Episcopal" version of a Reformed Church?

Highly doubtful. Reformed theology rejects a hierarchical clergyhood, accepting only deacons and elders (they don't accept the concept of priest). As such, bishops are foreign historically to them. The presbyterians may have an elected elder to act as a focus and leader, but he or she isn't a bishop.

 

[WisdomTree]

Highly doubtful. Reformed theology rejects a hierarchical clergyhood, accepting only deacons and elders (they don't accept the concept of priest). As such, bishops are foreign historically to them. The presbyterians may have an elected elder to act as a focus and leader, but he or she isn't a bishop.

What about Evangelical Anglicans?

 

[PaladinValer]

What about Evangelical Anglicans?

Nothing to say...they abide by bishops and Apostolic Succession because that is an official doctrine of Anglicanism. The Puritans were expelled or all left...

In Anglicanism, the term "evangelical" is not the same as the Protestant use of it. It refers to an empasis within Anglicanism in regards to our differences with your church (papacy, Transub, etc) and empasizes the vitality on good preaching and the Bible as the primary focus on doctrine and faith. They still however adhere to Real Presence theology, episcopal goverence, etc. We are not a Protestant denomination but a protestant church that retains the essential Catholic beliefs and practices of the Early Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nothing to say...they abide by bishops and Apostolic Succession because that is an official doctrine of Anglicanism. The Puritans were expelled or all left...

In Anglicanism, the term "evangelical" is not the same as the Protestant use of it. It refers to an empasis within Anglicanism in regards to our differences with your church (papacy, Transub, etc) and empasizes the vitality on good preaching and the Bible as the primary focus on doctrine and faith. They still however adhere to Real Presence theology, episcopal goverence, etc. We are not a Protestant denomination but a protestant church that retains the essential Catholic beliefs and practices of the Early Church.

The question is not whether Anglicanism is or is not Protestant, but whether or not it is Reformed. Certainly Robert Cranmer and his generation were distinctly Reformed in much of their theology and that influence remains to this day within various segments, especially the Low Church, of Anglicanism.

 

[hedrick]

There are in fact actual Reformed Anglicans. E.g. Alister McGrath. I believe there are a fair number of them.

Also the Reformed churches of Hungary and Poland have episcopal organizations. As I recall, the Hungarian church has bishops in the apostolic succession.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is a link to the Reformed Episcopal Church website - The Reformed Episcopal Church

 

[WisdomTree]

So overall: "Congregationalists" vs "Presbyterians" is just polity, while "Congregationalists" vs "Reformed Baptists" is doctrinal, and "Reformed" vs "Episcopal" is pretty much all of the above.

 

[PaladinValer]

The question is not whether Anglicanism is or is not Protestant, but whether or not it is Reformed. Certainly Robert Cranmer and his generation were distinctly Reformed in much of their theology and that influence remains to this day within various segments, especially the Low Church, of Anglicanism.

Reformed however in which way? Since the Reformed tradition is thoroughly Protestant, then the question truly is whether or not Anglicanism is Catholic or Protestant.

The thing is, Anglicanism is Catholic and protestant, but not Protestant. We acknowledged the abuses of the Popes and the Church based in Rome at the time but unlike in Protestantism, we did not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We kept sacramentalism, valid bishops and Apostolic Succession, Real Presence theology, use of Deuterocanonal Scripture, traditional liturgy...and all things that make Catholicism, Catholicism. We did reject things like Transubstantiationism as a dogma, papal polity, cardinals, the pre-Tridentine/Tridentine idea of purgatory, Treasury of Merits, etc, but then again, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox also reject them, and they too are fully Catholic.

Evangelicalism, or more accurately Open Evangelicalism, within Anglicanism is an entirely different creature than Evangelicalism in Protestantism. It is an emphasis on the more reforming aspect of Anglicanism that restored preaching and the primary place of Holy Scripture and which chooses not to partake in many of the optional practices like Saintly venerations and use of full vesture. That is the basics of it.

Here is a link to the Reformed Episcopal Church website - The Reformed Episcopal Church

They are not part of the Anglican Communion. They split because of a rejection of the Catholicity of Holy Orders and baptismal regeneration.

So overall: "Congregationalists" vs "Presbyterians" is just polity, while "Congregationalists" vs "Reformed Baptists" is doctrinal, and "Reformed" vs "Episcopal" is pretty much all of the above.

There are three major types of church polity: congregationalism, presbyterianism, and episcopalianism.

There are also actual denominations called Congregationalists and Presbyterians. There are many churches that use the word "episcopal" in their name, such as my own The Episcopal Church, a member of the Anglican Communion...and there are some denominations that use the word "episcopal" as well, like the African Methodist Episcopal Church.

Within Anglicanism there are three emphases: Open Evangelicalism, Hookerite Latitudarianism, and Anglo-Catholicism. There are also wannabes called Crypto-Calvinists/Presbyterians and Anglo-Papists, who are Anglicans "in name only": the Puritans were Cryptos and many of the splintered Continuing Church bodies (Anglican in heritage but not in the Anglican Communion) are Anglo-Papist, such as the Traditional Anglican Communion.