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Did Paul make it to Spain?

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herev

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We know Paul wanted to go there.
We have good information that Paul was martyred in Rome around 64 under Nero...
But, are there not sources that say he, in fact, did go to Spain before returning and being executed in Rome
Just curious, please give us some sources:
herev
 

ClementofRome

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1 Clement 5:5-7

"Because of jealousy and strife, Paul, by his example, pointed out the way to the prize for patient endurance. After he had been seven times in chains, had been driven into exile, had been stoned and had preached in the East and in the West, he won the genuine glory for his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world and HAVING REACHED THE FARTHEREST LIMITS OF THE WEST.* Finally, when he had given his testimony before the rulers, he thus departed from the world and went to the holy place, having become an outstanding example of patient endurance."

*upper case letters are mine

Great thread herev, and a personal favorite topic of mine. 1 Clem was written ca. 96 AD during the persecution of Domition. The letter is supposed to Clement, 3rd or 4th Bishop of Rome according to records of papal succession. Arguments against a Clement authorship are weak at best. JB Lightfoot has an excellent and full discussion of this.

So, as St. Clement was the leader of the Roman Christian community in the late 1st century AD (or CE for you politically correct types), it figures that he has been a part of the church in Rome for some time. If he is an older man, which is suspected due to the purpose of the letter to the church in Corinth (they could never get it right!!! , the young men of the church had usurped the authority of the elders of the church!), it is also assumed, and I think it likely, that he knew both Peter and Paul personally as a young man or a boy.

The "fartherest limits of the west'" from the perspective of Rome is most certainly Spain or the Portugese coast! Thusly, an authoritative Christian source seems to confirm Spain.

Here is a scenario:

After 3rd MJ he is arrested and goes before Festus>Felix>Agrippa and ultimately Caeser (Acts ends with him under house arrest in Rome waiting this hearing). As he was guilty of nothing and the Christians has not yet ticked Nero off enough to crush them, Paul was released and he took a B-line west to Spain. Having spread the gospel there, he comes back through Rome (possibly with the goal of going back to Jerusalem), but by this time Nero is on his rampage and Paul is arrested and killed. I am also of the opinion that he wrote the Pastorals during this second Roman arrest but I realize that there are many who would disagree with this....neither here, nor there.

Blessings
CofR
 
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armothe

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Romans 15: 23-25 - But now that there is no more place for me to work in these regions, and since I have been longing for many years to see you, I plan to do so when I go to Spain. I hope to visit you while passing through and to have you assist me on my journey there, after I have enjoyed your company for a while.

If you believe the Holy Spirit authored the words above, you can easily conclude that Paul indeed made it to Spain.

-A
 
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ClementofRome

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Thanks armothe...so now we have Paul's plan to go....and Clement's witness that he went.
AMEN!
 
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prodromos

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It would be interesting to hear what the traditions are according to Spanish sources. If Paul did indeed go to Spain then the church there would surely have kept a record of his visit in its tradition. Paul's footsteps are very clearly remembered here in Greece, with shrines or churches marking virtually every location where Paul preached.

John.
 
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ClementofRome

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Here is another.....still digging, there are others. I will post them as I locate them.

From the Muratorian Fragment (ca. 170 AD)

"...For "Most excellent Theophilus" Luke compiled the individual events that took place in his presence, as he plainly shows by omitting the martyrdom of Peter as well as the departure of Paul from the city when he journeyed to Spain. As for the epistles of Paul, they themselves make clear to those desiring to understand, which ones they are, from what place, or for what reason they were sent..."
 
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herev

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wasn't there a Muratorian Canon? Is this the same guy?
 
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ClementofRome

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herev said:
wasn't there a Muratorian Canon? Is this the same guy?
Yes the "Muratorian Canon" was derived from the information found on the Muratorian Fragment. The "MC" was a listing of those writings deemed canonical at the time:

See this for Metzger's translation:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html

Blessings to you....more to come as I make time.
C of R
 
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ClementofRome

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Here is an interesting statement by Theodoret, Bishop of Cyprus (ca. 430 AD) in his Ecclesastical History. Here Theodoret suggests that Paul went further than Spain even to England and Wales:

"Paul liberated from his first captivity at Rome, preached the gospel to the Britons and others in the West. Our fishermen and publicans not only persuaded the Romans and their tributaries to acknowledge the Crucified and His laws, but the Britons also and the Cymry."


 
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ClementofRome

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Here is another one a bit later as well that puts Paul in Spain by implication:

St. John Chrysostom of Antioch (347-407 AD)
From Homily on Matthew

"For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, "Their sound went into all the earth;"(8) and again, "The gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven."(9) And seest thou him running from Jerusalem unto Spain ? And if one took so large a portion, consider what the rest also wrought. For writing to others also, Paul again saith con-coming the gospel, that "it is bringing forth fruit, and growing up in every creature which is under Heaven."
 
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armothe

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ClementofRome said:
Thanks armothe...so now we have Paul's plan to go....and Clement's witness that he went.
AMEN!
Even moreso (and the point I was trying to make) was that it was God's plan for Paul to preach the gospel in Spain. Thus, for me at least, it seems pretty simple to conclude that God's plan was realized and Paul made it to Spain.

-A
 
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ClementofRome

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armothe said:
Even moreso (and the point I was trying to make) was that it was God's plan for Paul to preach the gospel in Spain. Thus, for me at least, it seems pretty simple to conclude that God's plan was realized and Paul made it to Spain.

-A
AGREED!
 
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ps139

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This is a great thread!

Here is some information I found from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Its a bit different than what Clement said, I do not know which "theory" is right or wrong but I figured the more information, the better.
(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm)
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This period is wrapped in deep obscurity for, lacking the account of the Acts, we have no guide save an often uncertain tradition and the brief references of the Pastoral epistles. Paul had long cherished the desire to go to Spain (Rom., xv, 24, 28) and there is no evidence that he was led to change his plan.

When towards the end of his captivity he announces his coming to Philemon (22) and to the Philippians (ii, 23-24), he does not seem to regard this visit as immediate since he promises the Philippians to send them a messenger as soon as he learns the issue of his trial; he therefore plans another journey before his return to the East. Finally, not to mention the later testimony of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Epiphanius, St. Jerome, St. Chrysostom, and Theodoret, the well-known text of St. Clement of Rome, the witness of the "Muratorian Canon", and of the "Acta Pauli" render probable Paul's journey to Spain.

In any case he can not have remained there long, for he was in haste to revisit his Churches in the East. He may have returned from Spain through southern Gaul if it was thither, as some Fathers have thought, and not to Galatia, that Crescens was sent later (II Tim., iv, 10). We may readily believe that he afterwards kept the promise made to his friend Philemon and that on this occasion he visited the churches of the valley of Lycus, Laodicea, Colossus, and Hierapolis.

The itinerary now becomes very uncertain, but the following facts seem indicated by the Pastorals: Paul remained in Crete exactly long enough to found there new churches, the care and organization of which he confided to his fellow-worker Titus (Titus, i, 5). He then went to Ephesus, and besought Timothy, who was already there, to remain until his return while he proceeded to Macedonia (I Tim., i,3). On this occasion he paid his promised visit to the Philippians (Phil., ii, 24), and naturally also saw the Thessalonians. The letter to Titus and the First Epistle to Timothy must date from this period; they seem to have been written about the same time and shortly after the departure from Ephesus. The question is whether they were sent from Macedonia or, which seems more probable, from Corinth. The Apostle instructs Titus to join him at Nicopolis of Epirus where he intends to spend the winter (Titus, iii, 12). In the following spring he must have carried out his plan to return to Asia (I Tim, iii, 14-15).

Here occurred the obscure episode of his arrest, which probably took place at Troas; this would explain his having left with Carpus a cloak and books which he needed (II Tim., iv, 13). He was taken from there to Ephesus, capital of the Province of Asia, where he was deserted by all those on whom he thought he could rely (II Tim., i, 15). Being sent to Rome for trial he left Trophimus sick at Miletus, and Erastus, another of his companions, remained at Corinth, for what reason is not clear (II Tim., iv, 20). When Paul wrote his Second Epistle to Timothy from Rome he felt that all human hope was lost (iv, 6).; he begs his disciple to rejoin him as quickly as possible, for he is alone with Luke. We do not know if Timothy was able to reach Rome before the death of the Apostle.

Ancient tradition makes it possible to establish the following points:
(1) Paul suffered martyrdom near Rome at a place called Aquae Salviae (now Tre Fontane), somewhat east of the Ostian Way, about two miles from the splendid Basilica of San Paolo fuori le mura which marks his burial place.
(2) The martyrdom took place towards the end of the reign of Nero, in the twelfth year (St. Epiphanius), the thirteenth (Euthalius), or the fourteenth (St. Jerome).
(3) According to the most common opinion, Paul suffered in the same year and on the same day as Peter; several Latin Fathers contend that it was on the same day but not in the same year; the oldest witness, St. Dionysius the Corinthian, says only kata ton auton kairon, which may be translated "at the same time" or "about the same time".
(4) From time immemorial the solemnity of the Apostles Peter and Paul has been celebrated on 29 June, which is the anniversary either of their death or of the translation of their relics.
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ClementofRome

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Thanks ps139....that is a reasonable accounting of Paul's post Acts adventures. I am of the opinion that the Britian/Wales thing is a bit far-fetched, and like I noted, it does come from a later tradition. However, when Clement of Rome (not me) mentions "the farthest points west" he could have been talking about the British Isles....certainly Spain, but maybe farther.

You are correct....great thread. Thanks herev!
 
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ps139

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I think its extremely far fetched, as as plausible as the old tale that Brutus (from "et tu, Brute?" - Julius Caesar - fame) traveled to Britain and founded a kingdom, from which Arthur was descended. This myth was pretty useful when the British Empire wanted to claim world domination in the late colonial age, they said they were heirs of the Roman empire.
 
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