Did Mary have sister named Mary???

[PaulAckermann]

Is this an error in the Bible?


Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

John 19:25

Since when do parents has two daughters and call them both the same name?


And yet here we have a verse in the Gospel of John that says Jesus' mother's sister was named Mary! That would mean that Mary had a sister named Mary.

This seems awfully far fetched! Who would call their daughters the same name?

Was John confused? Does that mean the Bible has errors?

Or is here another explanation?

 

[ModernDaySpyridon]

It is my understanding that there was no word for "cousin" in ancient Aramaic, so "brother" or "sister" was used for any close relative.

 

[Hadassah]

OK the analyst in me sees the following:

Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Not that Mary has a sister mary- Notice that often a comma denotes a new idea in the sentance.

Sometimes it helps to put a semicolon or period, but with the existant rules of English in most translations of the time - what is said makes sense and would read better thusly:

25 Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother and his mother’s sister; Mary (the wife of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene.

 

[ThePilgrim]

OK the analyst in me sees the following:





Not that Mary has a sister mary- Notice that often a comma denotes a new idea in the sentance.

Sometimes it helps to put a semicolon or period, but with the existant rules of English in most translations of the time - what is said makes sense and would read better thusly:

Except that's not why the comma is put there in the English in that case. If you look at the Greek for this verse, it's clear that it does mean that her "sister" was named Mary.

So why does Mary have a sister Mary?

Grace and peace,
John

 

[PaulAckermann]

OK the analyst in me sees the following:





Not that Mary has a sister mary- Notice that often a comma denotes a new idea in the sentance.

Sometimes it helps to put a semicolon or period, but with the existant rules of English in most translations of the time - what is said makes sense and would read better thusly:

I totally disagree with this exegesis. You are trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

Here is your translation again.

Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother and his mother’s sister; Mary (the wife of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene.


If after your semi-colon (which is not even in the original text), you are saying that it is an entirely new idea, then what new idea is it? There is no verb in this new idea. So what is John saying about the wife of Clopas and Mar Magalene? Did they come along? Did they stay behind? What about them?

If a verb there, you could argue this.

Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother and his mother’s sister; Mary (the wife of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene stood behind.

Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother and his mother’s sister; Mary (the wife of Clopas), and Mary Magdalene came along.

But there is no "stood behind" or "come along". John would then just drop their names without saying anything about them.


True, someimes after the semi-colon, there is a new idea. But that is only when there is a subject and predicate. But after your semi-colon there is no verb. Your sentence would be poor English.

 

[Hadassah]

yet we are speaking of Ye Olde English with the translation which we are going back to from modern and even further back to Greek and/or Latin.

I don't have all of my material where I am right this minute, so it is difficult to get into all of it.

It isn't saying they aren't present or are an afterthought, but that Mary's sister is there (un-named) and the other two mary's (Mary wife of Cleopas & Mary Magdelene).

We're not looking at an "isolated" but four accounts that blend beautifully... It was not and still is not common in Jewish households to name two children the same name... In fact, depending which groupings you come from, you don't name your children after living relations...


Mat 27:55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
Mat 27:56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Mar 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Luk 23:48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
Luk 23:49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

John 19:25 Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.


The use of commas is no mystery to me if you take note of the way I talk (and where I've grown up).

A comma is a pause. So let's go at it that way rather than semicolon... It's like saying "Cindy, James, his sister, Peter and Jonas and the others were there"

That doesn't make his sister "peter". It's a pause.

I know i'm not the only one who is seeing it this way...

We have at the crucifixion scene:
Mary (mother of Y'shua)
Her sister
Mary Magdelene
Mary mother of James & Joses
Mary wife of Cleopas
The mother of Zebedee's children
Salome
I see two unnamed in the four accounts, The only places I've seen in the notes I do have placing "her sister" as a Mary is in primarily recent commentaries... not the older commentaries I have on hand..

 

[INRI2]

Mary the wife of cleopas is also the mother of Jesus' "brothers"

Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

55 Many women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and ministered to Him were there, looking on from a distance. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

I believe "sisters" and "brothers" was used as a term to denote close Clan/family relatives.

 

[ThePilgrim]

HadassahSukkot, the problem is the passage wasn't originally written in English (whether early modern or modern, and certainly not Old English). It was written in Greek.

In the Greek, it is clear that the Mary mentioned here is wife of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Why would Mary have a sister named Mary?

 

[Knowledge3]

No, the Word of God is inerrant and divinely inspired.

Mary the Virgin, is not the same character as Mary Magdalene.

 

[RicFlair]

kinda off topic but not really



doesnt josephus or some historian talking about james, calls him brother and cousin of jesus. leading me to believe that they used brother as more than just physical sibling.

similar to me, ill introduce my close friends as brother or refer to them as my brothers

 

[Fireinfolding]

It is my understanding that there was no word for "cousin" in ancient Aramaic, so "brother" or "sister" was used for any close relative.

Not sure really but the "word" cousin is used in the same version of scripture

Luke 1:36 And, behold, thy """cousin"" Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

So the "word" is used in the version itself, why it would be understood in one place and misunderstood in another I would not know.

HadassahSukkot shows it could be a "question" of punctuation. I don't know...

Though "strongs concordance" shows...

Cleophas = "my exchanges"


1) the father of James the less, the husband of Mary the ~sister~ of the Mother of Jesus.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[PETE_]

John 19:25
John alone mentions the mother of Jesus in the group. It is not clear whether the sister of the mother of Jesus is Salome the mother of the sons of Zebedee or the wife of Clopas. If so, two sisters have the name Mary and James and John are cousins of Jesus. The point cannot be settled with our present knowledge

 

[WarriorAngel]

Lets not add anything to the Bible that does not belong....not even one tittle.

And the sentence is clear as can be....the verse suggests Mary is Mary's sister.

WE all use the term brother and sister and to us it means in the spirit of the Lord...and this is what it means in the Bible as well..including when it is used to refer to Christ's brothers and sisters.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Brothers and sisters have a three fold meaning....

A literal sibling...

A cousin or very close to kin relative......

And a brethren in Christ...

 

[Hadassah]

HadassahSukkot, the problem is the passage wasn't originally written in English (whether early modern or modern, and certainly not Old English). It was written in Greek.

In the Greek, it is clear that the Mary mentioned here is wife of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Why would Mary have a sister named Mary?

Umm I didn't say it was english to begin with, I said:

yet we are speaking of Ye Olde English with the translation which we are going back to from modern and even further back to Greek and/or Latin.

In other words, we who speak Modern English are reading OLD English, which needs interpreting in and of itself I have been learning it since I was very small), and then with the English we know we are looking BACKWARDS into the original texts to prove the translations we have.

There are other texts that are looked on as original such as the Syriac, Persic and Ethiopic, though not-so-much so by the Western Christian groups..

Nevertheless, I persevere on hoping somehow what I just said wasn't lost..

and here is what I knew I had on file:

The Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions distinguish Mary the wife of Cleophas from his mother's sister, by placing the copulative and between them, and so make two persons.

The translations I have read as follows:

(ALT) Now [there] stood by the cross of Jesus His mother and His mother's sister, Mary [the wife] of Cleopas, and Mary the Magdalene [or, Mary, a woman from Magdala].

(BBE) Now by the side of the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister Mary, the wife of Cleopas, and Mary Magdalene.

(Bishops) There stoode by the crosse of Iesus his mother, and his mothers sister, Marie the wyfe of Cleophas, and Marie Magdalene.

(GB) Then stoode by the crosse of Iesus his mother, and his mothers sister, Marie the wife of Cleopas, and Marie Magdalene.

(HNV) But there were standing by the cross of Yeshua his mother, and his mother's sister, Miriam the wife of Klofah, and Miriam from Magdala.

(KJVA) Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

(LITV) And His mother, and His mother's sister Mary, the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene stood by the cross of Jesus.

(SRV) Y estaban junto á la cruz de Jesús su madre, y la hermana de su madre, María mujer de Cleofas, y María Magdalena.

(WNT) Now standing close to the cross of Jesus were His mother and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

Sister is

G79
ἀδελφή
ad-el-fay'
Feminine of G80; a sister (natural or ecclesiastical): - sister.

Whilst Cousin is

G4773
συγγενής
soong-ghen-ace'
From G4862 and G1085; a relative (by blood); by extension a fellow countryman: - cousin, kin (-sfolk, -sman).

 

[PaulAckermann]

HadassahSukkot,


Can you quote from one translation we have, whether it be the Old English King James or one of the modern translations that support your translation?

This is the problem I have with what you are saying. You are not merely interpreting the verse, you are re-translating this verse. You are saying that there should be a semi-colon in there, but not one of the translations we have put semi-colon in there.

How is it that all the translators of the Bible, who are experts in NT Greek and the English language, got it all wrong and you got it right?

 

[prodromos]

What word would describe Mary's relationship with one of Joseph's sisters or perhaps the wife of one of Joseph's brothers? Would not "sister" be appropriate?

John

 

[Hadassah]

HadassahSukkot,


Can you quote from one translation we have, whether it be the Old English King James or one of the modern translations that support your translation?

This is the problem I have with what you are saying. You are not merely interpreting the verse, you are re-translating this verse. You are saying that there should be a semi-colon in there, but not one of the translations we have put semi-colon in there.

How is it that all the translators of the Bible, who are experts in NT Greek and the English language, got it all wrong and you got it right?

I already did quote the translations I have, and exactly how I see it. These are old translations...

I've studied Shakespearean and Elizabethan English from a very young age... with that the the KJV, Geneva and Bishops' bible come easy.. The literal translations provided also come from the same type/thought pattern of English.

Our english now, is vastly different. I have quoted and let stand what I have. I read also the Psh'tta (aramaic in English) and am endeavoring to learn Aramaic and Hebrew. The Greek I have been obsorbing here and there from what I have been learning along the way in manner of studies and also whilst my brother and dad take seminary courses. (osmosis?)

I haven't 'in effect retranslated'...


I guess in other words, I've said my peice and my mind is made up, I see nothing to argue/debate over.

 

[Hadassah]

What word would describe Mary's relationship with one of Joseph's sisters or perhaps the wife of one of Joseph's brothers? Would not "sister" be appropriate?

John

Sure, it could definitely be that, It is in many languages especially Hebrew and the languages influenced by Hebrew (Like German for instance)

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

To the opening post....


Maybe yes, maybe no.
Who cares?
I can hardly think of an issue more moot...



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