Deut 32:30 Your take on understanding this verse please.

[Carl Emerson]

New American Standard Bible
30 "How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the LORD had given them up?

 

[Mark Quayle]

New American Standard Bible
30 "How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the LORD had given them up?

Reading it in context, a beautiful assessment. Only by the mercy of God do we remain, and his mercy is the safest place to be. We cannot save ourselves —on the contrary, that attempt is why we are need of his mercy!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Reading it in context, a beautiful assessment. Only by the mercy of God do we remain, and his mercy is the safest place to be. We cannot save ourselves —on the contrary, that attempt is why we are need of his mercy!

Can you explain in detail how your interpretation relates to the actual text please.

 

[3 Resurrections]

New American Standard Bible
30 "How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the LORD had given them up?

It is important not to separate this single verse from its larger context. This whole chapter Deuteronomy 32 is the "Song of Moses". This "Song of Moses" was taught to the children of Israel to memorize. It was a warning for all the Israelite generations to come which predicted what God was going to do to their nation in "the latter days" and in their "latter end" (Deut. 31:29 and Deut. 32:29) for their idolatry and unfaithfulness in breaking the covenant.

The fulfillment of all those disasters which would befall the nation of Israel in their "latter end" is found in Revelation 15:3, where the "Song of Moses" is being sung. There is rejoicing that the seven plagues are going to finally be poured out on the earth, and that God's judgments are being made manifest.

As in Deuteronomy 32:36, The Lord would "judge His people" when He saw that their power was gone. It is the same judgment as found In the words of Daniel 12:7 when the power of the holy people was going to be shattered, and it would only take a time, times and half a time to accomplish this (3-1/2 years from late AD 66 until AD 70).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Jesus put a legion of devils to flight within one man, in case we missed the obvious, but unseen that transpires beyond the pale

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to, Satan

Just as Satan entered into Judas

Same principle in all cases, showing our mutual condition of being sinners no better than anyone else, Romans 3:9 and sin being "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, via our adversary, the tempter.

How is it then that this subtlety escapes our reading?

Mark 4:15 must be applied as a follow on to every Word of God, because it does happen and is a present reality. Shown throughout the scriptures, but isolated clearly by Paul in Acts 26:18, Romans 7, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor 4:4, 2 Cor 12:7, Gal 4:14, Eph 2:2, etc etc

The missing parties make reading scriptures much more interesting when "they" are factored in.

If you've read this and still don't know who "they" are, read Mark 4:15 multiple times until it sinks in, personally applied. That it happens to YOU too.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Reading it in context, a beautiful assessment. Only by the mercy of God do we remain, and his mercy is the safest place to be. We cannot save ourselves —on the contrary, that attempt is why we are need of his mercy!

Can you explain in detail how your interpretation relates to the actual text please.

Deut 32:30
"How could one man chase a thousand,
or two put ten thousand to flight,
unless their Rock had sold them,
unless the Lord had given them up?"

The context is displaying the huge difference between the two: 1. Israel depending on God their Rock —vs— 2. God giving them up to their own way.

If they abandon God, and he turns against them, one opponent could chase a thousand of them, or two put ten thousand to flight. Poetic hyperbole or not (and I don't consider it silly, seeing what Jonathan and his armor bearer accomplished), the principle is obvious, that on their own, the people of God are powerless.

But the context not only implies that God abandons them, in some form, or abandons his ways of protecting them (vss 19, 20: "The Lord...rejected them" “I will hide my face from them,”), but says that HE uses the enemy to afflict them thus. (vss 21-27) "I will heap calamities on them and spend my arrows against them" and, "...[lest] the enemy say, ...‘Our hand has triumphed; the Lord has not done all this.’”

Notice that it doesn't say that his children deserve his mercy, but that he can't allow the enemy to think that God was not the cause of their success against his children. I'd say that was his truth and justice at work. They are powerless in and of themselves. Now, whether vss 28 ("they are a nation without sense") to 30 refer to Israel being put to flight, or to their enemies that are going to be put to flight (the NIV shows it as the children of Israel who are put to flight, and that makes sense to me), the fact is simply shown that this is talking about obedience vs disobedience, and about the power of God, and about his mercy on his people for his own sake.

I said, "Only by the mercy of God do we remain, and his mercy is the safest place to be. We cannot save ourselves —on the contrary, that attempt is why we are need of his mercy", and to me this passage amply shows all of that. But particularly, notice the last parts of Deut 32's quote of the Lord speaking —that is, all of vss 26-43, that without diminishing his power he relents concerning his people —HE shows mercy for his own sake and not because anyone deserves it. Implied there is the fact that when his own people do on their own, apart from him, they earn nothing, but that their safety, welfare and happiness is dependent on his mercy alone.

(And no, I'm not implying in the least that obedience is not necessary. On the contrary, their rebellion (disobedience) is the very cause of God turning against his own people for a time)


I love Scripture passages that relate to this way of God working:

One of my favorites is Isaiah 8:12-14 "...do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread. And he will be a sanctuary."

Another is where King David, after being given a choice as to punishment for taking the census, says, "...let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great."

This is Grace, and in Deuteronomy 32, it is specifically prophetically, Gospel. (eg, vs. 43— HE will make atonement for his people.)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Mark Quayle said:
Reading it in context, a beautiful assessment. Only by the mercy of God do we remain, and his mercy is the safest place to be. We cannot save ourselves —on the contrary, that attempt is why we are need of his mercy!

Deut 32:30
"How could one man chase a thousand,
or two put ten thousand to flight,
unless their Rock had sold them,
unless the Lord had given them up?"

The context is displaying the huge difference between the two: 1. Israel depending on God their Rock —vs— 2. God giving them up to their own way.

If they abandon God, and he turns against them, one opponent could chase a thousand of them, or two put ten thousand to flight. Poetic hyperbole or not (and I don't consider it silly, seeing what Jonathan and his armor bearer accomplished), the principle is obvious, that on their own, the people of God are powerless.

But the context not only implies that God abandons them, in some form, or abandons his ways of protecting them (vss 19, 20: "The Lord...rejected them" “I will hide my face from them,”), but says that HE uses the enemy to afflict them thus. (vss 21-27) "I will heap calamities on them and spend my arrows against them" and, "...[lest] the enemy say, ...‘Our hand has triumphed; the Lord has not done all this.’”

Notice that it doesn't say that his children deserve his mercy, but that he can't allow the enemy to think that God was not the cause of their success against his children. I'd say that was his truth and justice at work. They are powerless in and of themselves. Now, whether vss 28 ("they are a nation without sense") to 30 refer to Israel being put to flight, or to their enemies that are going to be put to flight (the NIV shows it as the children of Israel who are put to flight, and that makes sense to me), the fact is simply shown that this is talking about obedience vs disobedience, and about the power of God, and about his mercy on his people for his own sake.

I said, "Only by the mercy of God do we remain, and his mercy is the safest place to be. We cannot save ourselves —on the contrary, that attempt is why we are need of his mercy", and to me this passage amply shows all of that. But particularly, notice the last parts of Deut 32's quote of the Lord speaking —that is, all of vss 26-43, that without diminishing his power he relents concerning his people —HE shows mercy for his own sake and not because anyone deserves it. Implied there is the fact that when his own people do on their own, apart from him, they earn nothing, but that their safety, welfare and happiness is dependent on his mercy alone.

(And no, I'm not implying in the least that obedience is not necessary. On the contrary, their rebellion (disobedience) is the very cause of God turning against his own people for a time)


I love Scripture passages that relate to this way of God working:

One of my favorites is Isaiah 8:12-14 "...do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread. And he will be a sanctuary."

Another is where King David, after being given a choice as to punishment for taking the census, says, "...let us fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is great."

This is Grace, and in Deuteronomy 32, it is specifically prophetically, Gospel. (eg, vs. 43— HE will make atonement for his people.)

OK thanks Mark - this make perfect sense and confirms what I thought - the Meaning of 'sold' was the key for me.

I came across this verse when trying to find the commonly quoted verse that claims the increased potency of many people praying putting the enemy to flight. Maybe there is another passage that confirms this principle but this is not the one !

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus put a legion of devils to flight within one man, in case we missed the obvious, but unseen that transpires beyond the pale

Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to, Satan

Just as Satan entered into Judas

Same principle in all cases, showing our mutual condition of being sinners no better than anyone else, Romans 3:9 and sin being "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, via our adversary, the tempter.

How is it then that this subtlety escapes our reading?

Mark 4:15 must be applied as a follow on to every Word of God, because it does happen and is a present reality. Shown throughout the scriptures, but isolated clearly by Paul in Acts 26:18, Romans 7, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor 4:4, 2 Cor 12:7, Gal 4:14, Eph 2:2, etc etc

The missing parties make reading scriptures much more interesting when "they" are factored in.

If you've read this and still don't know who "they" are, read Mark 4:15 multiple times until it sinks in, personally applied. That it happens to YOU too.

This is all good and perfectly understandable, thank you, but didn't answer the question I had.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It is important not to separate this single verse from its larger context. This whole chapter Deuteronomy 32 is the "Song of Moses". This "Song of Moses" was taught to the children of Israel to memorize. It was a warning for all the Israelite generations to come which predicted what God was going to do to their nation in "the latter days" and in their "latter end" (Deut. 31:29 and Deut. 32:29) for their idolatry and unfaithfulness in breaking the covenant.

The fulfillment of all those disasters which would befall the nation of Israel in their "latter end" is found in Revelation 15:3, where the "Song of Moses" is being sung. There is rejoicing that the seven plagues are going to finally be poured out on the earth, and that God's judgments are being made manifest.

As in Deuteronomy 32:36, The Lord would "judge His people" when He saw that their power was gone. It is the same judgment as found In the words of Daniel 12:7 when the power of the holy people was going to be shattered, and it would only take a time, times and half a time to accomplish this (3-1/2 years from late AD 66 until AD 70).

Thanks for your response - all sorted.

I am not and 'end times' buff so the eschatology doesn't interest me so much - each to his own I guess.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

This is all good and perfectly understandable, thank you, but didn't answer the question I had.

That's because you're trying to see physical beings. Scriptures contain entities unseen, per the prior citing. One of many such

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's because you're trying to see physical beings. Scriptures contain entities unseen, per the prior citing. One of many such

I am well aware of entities unseen.

 

[Mark Quayle]

OK thanks Mark - this make perfect sense and confirms what I thought - the Meaning of 'sold' was the key for me.

I came across this verse when trying to find the commonly quoted verse that claims the increased potency of many people praying putting the enemy to flight. Maybe there is another passage that confirms this principle but this is not the one !

Well, it does mention that he hears their cries, (or words to that effect). But yeah, that is not the thrust of this passage.

 

[Mark Quayle]

OK thanks Mark - this make perfect sense and confirms what I thought - the Meaning of 'sold' was the key for me.

I came across this verse when trying to find the commonly quoted verse that claims the increased potency of many people praying putting the enemy to flight. Maybe there is another passage that confirms this principle but this is not the one !

I'm thinking you may find such references in Psalms, where many times he subjects Israel to punishment and then hears their cries. —Unless you are looking for an historical example, though I suppose some of those Psalms are historically applicable (to certain events or situations). I feel like I know what you are thinking of, but.... haha. Sure will be good to discuss the power of his absolute purity, the mercy and goodness and depth of the love of God with total recall, in Heaven!

 

[Mark Quayle]

OK thanks Mark - this make perfect sense and confirms what I thought - the Meaning of 'sold' was the key for me.

I came across this verse when trying to find the commonly quoted verse that claims the increased potency of many people praying putting the enemy to flight. Maybe there is another passage that confirms this principle but this is not the one !

That word, "sold", there, is scary, isn't it!! I think it is related to notions of buying back, later, and, if I remember right, in several other passages more explicitly, as the Gospel claims. Some of these thoughts are so deep, and go so far beyond me that I can't even let myself think too long or hard about them. I know there is a lot there to be found, but "it is too good for me"! Redemption!

One such thought is the way God is continually running his plans along the edge of utter disaster, (so to speak), so great is his power that there is no danger of his failing to accomplish all he set out to do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

@Carl Emerson

Exodus, of course, has several occasions where the people go back and forth with God, abandoning and returning, beginning with the account of their affliction in Egypt where they cry out to him. The prophets also give several such scenarios. But for some reason I'm thinking what you're looking for is instructional, in the New Testament. My brain is seething, haha. "Where two or three are gathered in my name.." might imply quite a bit. The Bride has Christ's heart, the Children of God the heart of the Father.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I am well aware of entities unseen.

So Jesus, as an example, puts 12,000 to flight
but you don't get it?

Oh well

 

[Carl Emerson]

So Jesus, as an example, puts 12,000 to flight
but you don't get it?

Oh well

I am not confident that you know what I get.