Denying Jesus

[Icyspark]

Matthew 10:32-33
“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.​

What does it mean to deny Jesus? Is it simply not accepting Him as your Savior? Could it be something more like the example of Peter's experience in which he denied that he knew Jesus three times (see Matthew 26:34-35; 75)? I believe either of these would certainly qualify as a denial of Jesus. But what about our actions. Can we, by our very actions, be denying Jesus? Let's take a look at what Paul has to say:

​

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.​

The above is Paul speaking with regard to a "rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception" and who are "teaching things they ought not to teach." He says to "rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to . . . the merely human commands of those who reject the truth." This is a group of people apparently in the church otherwise there wouldn't be much point in rebuking them so they'd be "sound in the faith." These people "claim to know God," but their actions reveal a different story. Paul says, "by their actions they deny him." Just because a person claims to know God doesn't mean that person in fact has a relationship with Him. God has revealed that our love for Him is to be manifested in our obedience to Him. Jesus says, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. . . Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching." That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Likewise, the apostle John writes, "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." Do you know Jesus? Are you living as Jesus did?

Jude writes about people secretly slipping in among true believers. About these pretenders he says, "They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." In this case Jude concludes that a denying of Jesus Christ is tied to those who make God's grace into a license for immorality. This is ǝpısdn uʍop World thinking on display. Paul addresses this pretender's mindset asking, "Shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? He immediately answers his own question saying, "God forbid!"

In 2 Timothy 3, Paul describes what people will be like in the last days. He says they will be "lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." These same people, he says, will also have a "form of godliness" (2 Timothy 3:5) while at the same time they are "denying its power." The pretenders can be identified in how they reject the power of God to overcome what the flesh desires (Romans 8:5).

What do you suppose would be the opposite to denying Jesus? Jesus provides the answer: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." To deny self is a denial of our flesh and what our flesh desires. To deny self would mean obedience to Jesus. Taking up our cross means we crucify "the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24) If you are living according to the Spirit you will not be in a state of denying the Spirit's power to "put to death the misdeeds of the body" so that "you will live."

ALSO BY THIS AUTHOR

• Works Relation to Salvation​

• Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian​

• Another jesus. Another gospel.​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[BobRyan]

John 14:15 -- IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 15:14 those who Love Me - KEEP My Commandments
1 John 5:3 "THIS IS the LOVE of God , what we KEEP His Commandments"

Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Eph 6:1-2 where "Honor your father and mother is the FIRST commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN

Heb 8:6-12 it is CHRIST speaking His commandments at Sinai.
Deut 5:22 at Sinai God spoke the Ten "and added NO more"

The point is not that we should ignore all but the TEN - but the point is that the TEN are most certainly included in the Jer 31:31-34 "Law written on the heart" under the New Covenant.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Matthew 10:32-33​

“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.​

What does it mean to deny Jesus? Is it simply not accepting Him as your Savior? Could it be something more like the example of Peter's experience in which he denied that he knew Jesus three times (see Matthew 26:34-35; 75)? I believe either of these would certainly qualify as a denial of Jesus. But what about our actions. Can we, by our very actions, be denying Jesus? Let's take a look at what Paul has to say:

​

Titus 1:16​

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.​

The above is Paul speaking with regard to a "rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception" and who are "teaching things they ought not to teach." He says to "rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to . . . the merely human commands of those who reject the truth." This is a group of people apparently in the church otherwise there wouldn't be much point in rebuking them so they'd be "sound in the faith." These people "claim to know God," but their actions reveal a different story. Paul says, "by their actions they deny him." Just because a person claims to know God doesn't mean that person in fact has a relationship with Him. God has revealed that our love for Him is to be manifested in our obedience to Him. Jesus says, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. . . Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching." That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Likewise, the apostle John writes, "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." Do you know Jesus? Are you living as Jesus did?

Jude writes about people secretly slipping in among true believers. About these pretenders he says, "They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." In this case Jude concludes that a denying of Jesus Christ is tied to those who make God's grace into a license for immorality. This is ǝpısdn uʍop World thinking on display. Paul addresses this pretender's mindset asking, "Shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? He immediately answers his own question saying, "God forbid!"

In 2 Timothy 3, Paul describes what people will be like in the last days. He says they will be "lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." These same people, he says, will also have a "form of godliness" (2 Timothy 3:5) while at the same time they are "denying its power." The pretenders can be identified in how they reject the power of God to overcome what the flesh desires (Romans 8:5).

What do you suppose would be the opposite to denying Jesus? Jesus provides the answer: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." To deny self is a denial of our flesh and what our flesh desires. To deny self would mean obedience to Jesus. Taking up our cross means we crucify "the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24) If you are living according to the Spirit you will not be in a state of denying the Spirit's power to "put to death the misdeeds of the body" so that "you will live."

ALSO BY THIS AUTHOR

• Works Relation to Salvation​

• Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian​

• Another jesus. Another gospel.​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Matthew 15:3-14 also ties into this....

Keeping our own rules/traditions over obeying the commandments of God Jesus quoting directly from the Ten Commandments- our heart is far from Him because it is a denial of God obeying Him based on His Authority over obeying what man deems in place of God's law.

Paul touches on this to

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

 

[Bob S]

Okay, we all know this thread will turn into a discussion about how, unless we keep the Sabbath, we cannot be saved. First of all that reeks of salvation by works of the old covenant's command that Israel was to keep the Sabbath. God has never required Gentile nations to observe a day, so I presume the OP would exclude millions upon millions of believers. The SDA prophet wrote that those who lived "before" "present truth" were grandfathered as being under the "test". So much for the thought that the Sabbath command is written on our hearts making us accountable. If the Sabbath were indeed written on our hearts wouldn't everyone be guilty for not keeping Sabbath? Yet Mrs. White excuses all of them before the "present Truth".

Special truths have been adapted to the conditions of the generations as they have existed. The present truth, which is a test to the people of this generation, was not a test to the people of generations far back. If the light which now shines upon us in regard to the Sabbath of the fourth commandment had been given to the generations in the past, God would have held them accountable for that light.
2T 693.1

Those who died before the light was given upon the law of God and the claims of the fourth commandment were not guilty of the sin of violating the seventh-day Sabbath. The wisdom and mercy of God in dispensing light and knowledge at the proper time, as the people need it, is unsearchable. Previous to His coming to judge the world in righteousness, He sends forth a warning to arouse the people and call their attention to their neglect of the fourth commandment, that they may be enlightened, and may repent of their transgression of His law, and prove their allegiance to the great Lawgiver. He has made provision that all may be holy and happy if they choose. Sufficient light has been given to this generation, that we may learn what our duties and privileges are, and enjoy the precious and solemn truths in their simplicity and power.
2T 693.3

 

[Icyspark]

Okay, we all know this thread will turn into a discussion about how, unless we keep the Sabbath, we cannot be saved. First of all that reeks of salvation by works of the old covenant's command that Israel was to keep the Sabbath. God has never required Gentile nations to observe a day, so I presume the OP would exclude millions upon millions of believers. The SDA prophet wrote that those who lived "before" "present truth" were grandfathered as being under the "test". So much for the thought that the Sabbath command is written on our hearts making us accountable. If the Sabbath were indeed written on our hearts wouldn't everyone be guilty for not keeping Sabbath? Yet Mrs. White excuses all of them before the "present Truth".

Special truths have been adapted to the conditions of the generations as they have existed. The present truth, which is a test to the people of this generation, was not a test to the people of generations far back. If the light which now shines upon us in regard to the Sabbath of the fourth commandment had been given to the generations in the past, God would have held them accountable for that light.
2T 693.1

Those who died before the light was given upon the law of God and the claims of the fourth commandment were not guilty of the sin of violating the seventh-day Sabbath. The wisdom and mercy of God in dispensing light and knowledge at the proper time, as the people need it, is unsearchable. Previous to His coming to judge the world in righteousness, He sends forth a warning to arouse the people and call their attention to their neglect of the fourth commandment, that they may be enlightened, and may repent of their transgression of His law, and prove their allegiance to the great Lawgiver. He has made provision that all may be holy and happy if they choose. Sufficient light has been given to this generation, that we may learn what our duties and privileges are, and enjoy the precious and solemn truths in their simplicity and power.
2T 693.3

Hi Bob S,

Not that the opening post said anything about the Sabbath. Neither did either of the other two posts prior to yours. Ironically, it's you who wants to turn the topic of this thread into a discussion about the Sabbath.

Not that your tactics of changing the subject are surprising to me, but for the sake of lurkers I say this to note the fact that you didn't respond to a single Bible text or the conclusions drawn based on those texts. You did as you usually do and ignored what the Bible says and instead advocated for the elevation of your finite opinion.

WARNING BEACON DEPLOYED
To those who may be new or unfamiliar with your methodology, let me just share a few of your more glaring false teachings.

FALSE TEACHING #1: Adding and subtracting
In Deuteronomy 4:2 God says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it." But you reject God's directive and do exactly what He says not to do. You're constantly attempting to either subtract at least one of the commands from the Ten Commandment covenant, or you're attempting to add the Ten into the 603.

By whose authority are you rejecting what God says?

FALSE TEACHING #2: Elevating an unbiblical number (613) and attempting to marginalize one that is biblical (Ten)
There are currently 15 pages (x20 items/page) of you bandying about this unbiblical number in your apparent attempt to disparage the one set of laws which in FACT has a numeral attached to it and which is also defined as a covenant. I'd say this is not only a fixation but an attempt to do what you used to loudly, constantly and at length insist that Adventists were trying to brainwash people. But as I pointed out, it was actually you who was employing brainwashing techniques and it's apparent that you are continuing to do so.

Please show us anywhere in the Bible where this 613 number is so we can see why it is so important that you feel the need to blast this forum with it over 300 times! If you cannot supply any biblical reference for this number—and you can't—then this is the definition of attempted brainwashing.

FALSE TEACHING #3: Sabbath of the Jews

• Bob S says the Sabbath is for the Jews!
• Jesus says the Sabbath is made for human beings (Mark 2:27)

You're constantly asking Sabbatarians to supply a text which indicates the Sabbath was for anyone other than the Jews. We supply all sorts of biblical evidence to validate this premise. However, the one text which "absolutely" contradicts your private interpretation is this one where Jesus indicates very plainly that He "MADE" the Sabbath for human beings. Are you a human being? Then JESUS SAYS HE MADE THE SABBATH FOR YOU. This is inclusive language. By not believing and receiving Jesus's words, you reveal that you are rejecting Jesus! What does Jesus say about those who reject Him?

FALSE TEACHING #4: Employing Postmodern thinking to reject what the Bible plainly teaches
In this post you asserted, "satin [sic] will still tempt us in every way, but Jesus can and will keep us from falling. Jn 3:16." To which I replied, "John 3:16 doesn't say anything about keeping us from falling." To which you responded, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." This exchange illustrates the mind-numbing elevation of your own finite opinion above the Word of God and why your words should be condemned as false teaching.

FALSE TEACHING #5: You insist that the Sabbath is "absolutely" ritual
You said, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality. Throughout the Old Testament people were excused when breaking the Sabbath which was a ritual law."

To which I replied:

Again, this is a rejection of knowledge. I'm sure you're familiar with the story of the man caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath? Was he "excused when breaking the Sabbath"? Um, no.

Numbers 15:32-36​

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.​

Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

According to your rationale, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality," you'd have to conclude that your premise affirms rather than denies the Sabbath as "dealing with morality." You don't just get to arbitrarily exclude something which doesn't align with your predetermined beliefs.

To which you wrote:

Hi spark, It seems like there is an exception to any rule and of course, you would find one.​

So, while you elevate your own words and finite opinion above the Bible in general and the specific words of Jesus in particular, you also are not consistent or coherent within the framework of your own words. I just counteracted your self-contrived concept that the Sabbath is a ritual command using your own stated, absolute belief system against you. But as we saw in FALSE TEACHING #4 where your false claim was rebutted showing that your contention didn't align with Scripture you just moved the goalposts. Your response was, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." The goal posts are constantly in a state of motion with you.

FALSE TEACHING #6: Not an inkling of the Sabbath
In the not so distant past your contention was that Earth's population had "not an inkling of the knowledge of Saturday being special." This had the special bizarre quality of being posted on a thread which, if read, shoulda, coulda, woulda prevented you from posting something so patently false. That said, you actually acknowledged that you were aware of the truth, but you chose to proceed with your own feeble attempt at brainwashing.

I responded to your false teaching by showing how there are numerous languages all over the world which identify the seventh day of the week as Sabbath.

And what did you do with your "not an inkling" false teaching? You immediately jettisoned it and threw down this gem: "Is there any evidence of any of those nations observing Sabbath?"

It's just one false teaching goose-stepping in lock step behind another with you. Your misuse of the word "inkling" ranks right up there with your misuse of the word "absolutely." If you weren't so brazen in your responses I might think you were simply ignorant of the meaning of these words. But your rejection of knowledge indicates what appears to be a premeditated (or possibly, premedicated ), intentional use of words intended to mislead the uninformed. In this case there was an ABSOLUTE INKLING of the Sabbath—all over the world! How did that happen? It just throws a huge wrench in your monkey-works.

People aren't fooled. Especially those who have been given the gift of discernment.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S,

Not that the opening post said anything about the Sabbath. Neither did either of the other two posts prior to yours. Ironically, it's you who want to turn the topic of this thread into a discussion about the Sabbath

I must have gotten the following out of thin air. Ironically, you indeed mentioned the Sabbath. I do know from your previous posts that because most Christians do not believe we are under the old covenant requirements of Sabbath observance you believe we serve "another jesus".

• Works Relation to Salvation​

• Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian​

• Another jesus. Another gospel.​

Not that your tactics of changing the subject are surprising to me, but for the sake of lurkers I say to note the fact that you didn't respond to a single Bible text or the conclusions drawn based on those texts. You did as you usually do and ignored what the Bible says and instead advocated for the elevation of your finite opinion.

WARNING BEACON DEPLOYED
To those who may be new or unfamiliar with your methodology, let me just share a few of your more glaring false teachings.

FALSE TEACHING #1: Adding and subtracting
In Deuteronomy 4:2 God says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it." But you reject God's directive and do exactly what He says not to do. You're constantly attempting to either subtract at least one of the commands from the Ten Commandment covenant, or you're attempting to add the Ten into the 603.

You totally misrepresented what I believe. I don't subtract one or more from the ten commandments, I subtract them all. We are not under the commands of the old covenant. Paul made that perfectly clear in his writings. See Eph2:10-15, 2Cor3:6-11, Gal 31:9 for few.

By whose authority are you rejecting what God says?

FALSE TEACHING #2: Elevating an unbiblical number (613) and attempting to marginalize one that is biblical (Ten)
There are currently 15 pages (x20 items/page) of you bandying about this unbiblical number in your apparent attempt to disparage the one set of laws which in FACT has a numeral attached to it and which is also defined as a covenant. I'd say this is not only a fixation but an attempt to do what you used to loudly, constantly and at length insist that Adventists were trying to brainwash people. But as I pointed out, it was actually you who was employing brainwashing techniques and it's apparent that you are continuing to do so.

I have asked you several times to set me straight on just how many commands God gave to Israel. Have you ever answered my question?

Years ago I did use the term "brainwashing" and was called out for doing so. Since then I have never used the term. I see you do not have the capacity to forgive. Even worse you do what you accuse me of doing and what I have been convinced not to do.

Please show us anywhere in the Bible where this 613 number is so we can see why it is so important that you feel the need to blast this forum with it over 300 times! If you cannot supply any biblical reference for this number—and you can't—then this is the definition of attempted brainwashing.

Tell that to all of the other posters that use 613. Why are you so fixated on my using 613? Is it because you enjoy trying to put me down> It sure seems like it spark.

FALSE TEACHING #3: Sabbath of the Jews

• Bob S says the Sabbath is for the Jews!

Wrong again spark. Sabbath WAS for the Jews. Now everyone is under the new and better covenant of Grace and not the Law.

• Jesus says the Sabbath is made for human beings (Mark 2:27)

You're constantly asking Sabbatarians to supply a text which indicates the Sabbath was for anyone other than the Jews. We supply all sorts of biblical evidence to validate this premise. However, the one text which "absolutely" contradicts your private interpretation is this one where Jesus indicates very plainly that He "MADE" the Sabbath for human beings. Are you a human being? Then JESUS SAYS HE MADE THE SABBATH FOR YOU. This is inclusive language. By not believing and receiving Jesus's words, you reveal that you are rejecting Jesus! What does Jesus say about those who reject Him?

We do know for sure God made the Sabbath for those who came out of bondage. If God intended for people of say Asian descent why isn't there any evidence that they observed the Sabbath? This also goes for most of the World's population.

FALSE TEACHING #4: Employing Postmodern thinking to reject what the Bible plainly teaches
In this post you asserted, "satin [sic] will still tempt us in every way, but Jesus can and will keep us from falling. Jn 3:16." To which I replied, "John 3:16 doesn't say anything about keeping us from falling." To which you responded, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." This exchange illustrates the mind-numbing elevation of your own finite opinion above the Word of God and why your words should be condemned as false teaching.

So spark, are you contending that Jesus cannot keep us from falling? Oh! I guess only if we agree with you and your church that we have to be Sabbath observant.

FALSE TEACHING #5: You insist that the Sabbath is "absolutely" ritual
You said, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality. Throughout the Old Testament people were excused when breaking the Sabbath which was a ritual law."

To which I replied:

Again, this is a rejection of knowledge. I'm sure you're familiar with the story of the man caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath? Was he "excused when breaking the Sabbath"? Um, no.

I replied that it was probably not so much picking up the sticks as it was his defiance. If it was just his picking up the sticks that got him stoned how about when you and other Sabbath observers turn up the thermostat or when on Pathfinder outings sticks are picked up to feed the fires on Sabbath?

Numbers 15:32-36​

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.​

Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

According to your rationale, "There were absolutely no absolution for breaking a law dealing with morality," you'd have to conclude that your premise affirms rather than denies the Sabbath as "dealing with morality." You don't just get to arbitrarily exclude something which doesn't align with your predetermined beliefs.

To which you wrote:

Hi spark, It seems like there is an exception to any rule and of course, you would find one.​

Seems reasonable to me. Once again, you seem to be trying to belittle me. Thankfully, I try not to remember the posts I disagree with. I ask you, is it worth regurgitating all the posts about what I wrote that you disagree with? Wouldn't it be much better to debate your opinions or disagreements on my recent post rather than trying to belittle me in past posts? Do you really believe lurkers will fall for your guise?

So, while you elevate your own words and finite opinion above the Bible in general and the specific words of Jesus in particular, you also are not consistent or coherent within the framework of your own words. I just counteracted your self-contrived concept that the Sabbath is a ritual command using your own stated, absolute belief system against you. But as we saw in FALSE TEACHING #4 where your false claim was rebutted showing that your contention didn't align with Scripture you just moved the goalposts. Your response was, "Sorry spark, it doesn't have to." The goal posts are constantly in a state of motion with you.

That is just a bunch of hot air to avoid the real issues I present from the Word of God.

FALSE TEACHING #6: Not an inkling of the Sabbath
In the not so distant past your contention was that Earth's population had "not an inkling of the knowledge of Saturday being special." This had the special bizarre quality of being posted on a thread which, if read, shoulda, coulda, woulda prevented you from posting something so patently false. That said, you actually acknowledged that you were aware of the truth, but you chose to proceed with your own feeble attempt at brainwashing.

Another patent untruth. I tell it just like it is. which I see wrinkles you. Then when you are backed into a corner you start to get nasty with all your accusations instead of replying to the issues.

I responded to your false teaching by showing how there are numerous languages all over the world which identify the seventh day of the week as Sabbath.

So, since all those languages had to have meant they were also keepers of the Sabbath? What a lame debate. Prove any other nation, besides Israel, kept the Sabbath

And what did you do with your "not an inkling" false teaching? You immediately jettisoned it and threw down this gem: "Is there any evidence of any of those nations observing Sabbath?"

And your answer was?

It's just one false teaching goose-stepping in lock step behind another with you. Your misuse of the word "inkling" ranks right up there with your misuse of the word "absolutely." If you weren't so brazen in your responses I might think you were simply ignorant of the meaning of these words. But your rejection of knowledge indicates what appears to be a premeditated (or possibly, premedicated ), intentional use of words intended to mislead the uninformed. In this case there was an ABSOLUTE INKLING of the Sabbath—all over the world! How did that happen? It just throws a huge wrench in your monkey-works.

People aren't fooled. Especially those who have been given the gift of discernment.

Boy, I bet you are popping buttons on your shirt. It seems like any discernment you possess has turned into a critical attitude.

Spark, I sincerely do not want to continue having to defend what you deem me as serving a "false jesus". Why can't you just answer my posts with the best answers you have instead of digging up the past? Let's try to be kind, after all, we are brothers in Christ. I know you do not share that we are. Remember all the posts that were deleted recently. If I remember correctly it all started with personal attacks. We all could use more self-control.

I really hope this helps. In Christ, Bob

 

[Bob S]

This thread was almost completely destroyed because, in place of debating my post, the OP author tried to destroy my character. In place of continuing the debate, I was forced into defending all the accusations made against me. I can only believe the author lashed out at me personally because I posted the truth and the author could not defend the real thought behind what was posted in the OP.

The author stated: Likewise, the apostle John writes, "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." Do you know Jesus? Are you living as Jesus did?

If one studies the beliefs of the SDA church it will become clear that they believe all other non-Sabbatrh observing Christians who say we know Jesus as our Savior are really liars. How do SDAs come to that conclusion? Why, because we do not teach the Sabbath is a binding commandment on Christians. That one belief of theirs stands out above every other reason. The author tried to deny that The Sabbath was the reason for creating the OP. The author didn't mention Sabbath , but we all know the underlying reason.

 

[Leaf473]

This passage came to my mind

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:1-2 - New International Reader's Version

Peace and Hope - We have been made right with God because of our faith. Now we have peace with him because of our Lord Jesus Christ. Through faith in Jesus we have received God’s grace. In that grace we stand. We are full of joy because we expect to share in God’s glory.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Matthew 10:32-33​

“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.​

What does it mean to deny Jesus? Is it simply not accepting Him as your Savior? Could it be something more like the example of Peter's experience in which he denied that he knew Jesus three times (see Matthew 26:34-35; 75)? I believe either of these would certainly qualify as a denial of Jesus. But what about our actions. Can we, by our very actions, be denying Jesus? Let's take a look at what Paul has to say:

​

Titus 1:16​

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.​

The above is Paul speaking with regard to a "rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception" and who are "teaching things they ought not to teach." He says to "rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to . . . the merely human commands of those who reject the truth." This is a group of people apparently in the church otherwise there wouldn't be much point in rebuking them so they'd be "sound in the faith." These people "claim to know God," but their actions reveal a different story. Paul says, "by their actions they deny him." Just because a person claims to know God doesn't mean that person in fact has a relationship with Him. God has revealed that our love for Him is to be manifested in our obedience to Him. Jesus says, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. . . Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching." That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Likewise, the apostle John writes, "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." Do you know Jesus? Are you living as Jesus did?

Jude writes about people secretly slipping in among true believers. About these pretenders he says, "They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." In this case Jude concludes that a denying of Jesus Christ is tied to those who make God's grace into a license for immorality. This is ǝpısdn uʍop World thinking on display. Paul addresses this pretender's mindset asking, "Shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? He immediately answers his own question saying, "God forbid!"

In 2 Timothy 3, Paul describes what people will be like in the last days. He says they will be "lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." These same people, he says, will also have a "form of godliness" (2 Timothy 3:5) while at the same time they are "denying its power." The pretenders can be identified in how they reject the power of God to overcome what the flesh desires (Romans 8:5).

What do you suppose would be the opposite to denying Jesus? Jesus provides the answer: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." To deny self is a denial of our flesh and what our flesh desires. To deny self would mean obedience to Jesus. Taking up our cross means we crucify "the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24) If you are living according to the Spirit you will not be in a state of denying the Spirit's power to "put to death the misdeeds of the body" so that "you will live."

ALSO BY THIS AUTHOR

• Works Relation to Salvation​

• Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian​

• Another jesus. Another gospel.​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Here is an instruction from Jesus

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:2-3 - New American Standard Bible

saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Therefore, whatever they tell you, do and comply with it all, but do not do as they do; for they say things and do not do them.

www.biblegateway.com

If a person believes all of the instructions of Jesus are for today, they will want to follow the teachings of the scribes and the Pharisees.

That could be the scribes and the Pharisees back then, or the Jewish rabbis today

Peace be with you!!

 

[daq]

Here is an instruction from Jesus

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:2-3 - New American Standard Bible

saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Therefore, whatever they tell you, do and comply with it all, but do not do as they do; for they say things and do not do them.

www.biblegateway.com

If a person believes all of the instructions of Jesus are for today, they will want to follow the teachings of the scribes and the Pharisees.

That could be the scribes and the Pharisees back then, or the Jewish rabbis today

Peace be with you!!

Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic and the Greek texts are unfortunately mistaken in this case based on a single misinterpreted letter, (a waw suffix that is not in the Hebrew Shem Tob version). The context in the passage and even the whole account of Matthew, (and even the other Gospel accounts), tells us that this statement in Matthew 23:3 cannot be correct in the Greek versions. The statement is even a blatant contradiction to what follows in the same chapter-passage.

The Shem Tob Matthew version reads correctly, and this version was compiled and copied from an older version by someone, (the "Baal Shem Tov" ("Master of the Good Name")), who was using it in an anti-Christian polemic. In other words, he surely did not change the text for obvious reasons: for if his exemplar had said what the Greek texts now say, it would have been much more to his advantage to have such a statement in Matthew. Imagine an anti-messianic Rabbi reading such a statement: he would surely use it in a polemic against Christianity.

The following is essentially what is at play in the Hebrew. Even if you do not read Hebrew it is not difficult to see or understand, I will place the key word in red, (amar, to speak, to say, etc., etc.).

This is 1 Samuel 14:9 which begins with "If thus they say"

אִם־כֹּה יֹֽאמְרוּ אֵלֵינוּ דֹּמּוּ עַד־הַגִּיעֵנוּ אֲלֵיכֶם וְעָמַדְנוּ תַחְתֵּינוּ וְלֹא נַעֲלֶה אֲלֵיהֶֽם׃

Without the pointing, this is "they say" highlighted above in red: יאמרו
The final letter is the waw which tells you it means they say.

From Matthew 23:3, this is "he says" in the Shem Tob version: יאמר
There is no waw suffix: it reads, he says.

The difference is a mere single letter at the end of the word, the waw/vav. Moreover if you follow the pronouns the Shem Tob Hebrew version makes even more sense because "he says" refers directly back to Mosheh who was just mentioned.

Follow the pronouns:

The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh: therefore whatsoever he says to you, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

The entire argument changes on this seemingly insignificant little issue: for what the Master is actually telling his disciples is that because the Scribes and Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh, they themselves affirm that Mosheh is of a greater authority than they themselves, (for by sitting in the seat of Mosheh they by default claim him as their authority and the authority of the Torah over themselves), therefore whatsoever Mosheh says to you in the Torah, that do, but do not do as the Scribes and Pharisees do, (according to their works), because they say and do not do.

 

[Leaf473]

If you want to do everything Moses says, that's fine

Peace be with you!

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 21:20 - Tree of Life Version

And when they heard, they began glorifying God. They said, “You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believed—and they are all zealous for the Torah.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[daq]

It is no wonder to me that Mat 23:3 has been allowed to stand the way it is in the Greek texts.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Matthew 10:32-33​

“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.​

What does it mean to deny Jesus? Is it simply not accepting Him as your Savior? Could it be something more like the example of Peter's experience in which he denied that he knew Jesus three times (see Matthew 26:34-35; 75)? I believe either of these would certainly qualify as a denial of Jesus. But what about our actions. Can we, by our very actions, be denying Jesus? Let's take a look at what Paul has to say:

​

Titus 1:16​

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.​

The above is Paul speaking with regard to a "rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception" and who are "teaching things they ought not to teach." He says to "rebuke them sharply so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to . . . the merely human commands of those who reject the truth." This is a group of people apparently in the church otherwise there wouldn't be much point in rebuking them so they'd be "sound in the faith." These people "claim to know God," but their actions reveal a different story. Paul says, "by their actions they deny him." Just because a person claims to know God doesn't mean that person in fact has a relationship with Him. God has revealed that our love for Him is to be manifested in our obedience to Him. Jesus says, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. . . Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching." That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Likewise, the apostle John writes, "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." Do you know Jesus? Are you living as Jesus did?

Jude writes about people secretly slipping in among true believers. About these pretenders he says, "They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." In this case Jude concludes that a denying of Jesus Christ is tied to those who make God's grace into a license for immorality. This is ǝpısdn uʍop World thinking on display. Paul addresses this pretender's mindset asking, "Shall we continue to sin, that grace may abound? He immediately answers his own question saying, "God forbid!"

In 2 Timothy 3, Paul describes what people will be like in the last days. He says they will be "lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." These same people, he says, will also have a "form of godliness" (2 Timothy 3:5) while at the same time they are "denying its power." The pretenders can be identified in how they reject the power of God to overcome what the flesh desires (Romans 8:5).

What do you suppose would be the opposite to denying Jesus? Jesus provides the answer: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." To deny self is a denial of our flesh and what our flesh desires. To deny self would mean obedience to Jesus. Taking up our cross means we crucify "the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24) If you are living according to the Spirit you will not be in a state of denying the Spirit's power to "put to death the misdeeds of the body" so that "you will live."

ALSO BY THIS AUTHOR

• Works Relation to Salvation​

• Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian​

• Another jesus. Another gospel.​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Most of the issues over these subjects arise when we try to play these various terms only one way. Usually the "good" term for "me" and the "bad/evil/wrath/damnation" terms for some other person.

The fact of the matter is much easier to come to grips with. We are all comprised of both good and evil. There is simply no honest way to get around this fact by spinning ourselves as only good because, you see, that is just a common LIE. But since the heart is deceptive above all things, Jer. 17:9, what do we really expect but lies and deceptions?

WHO wants to raise their hand and admit they have an evil conscience? Hebrews 10:22. Yeah, let's hear it for the truth of an evil conscience. Any takers? Should we come before God in Christ as a liar and say it's not there?

WHO wants to say that they think evil thoughts that defile them? Mark 7:21-23, Romans 7:7-13. Yeah, let's hear it for the truth. Any takers? No, not one?

WHO wants to claim their own sorry hides are in conflict with the Holy Spirit? Gal. 5:17. Yeah, let's hear it for the truth. Any takers? No?

Now for the really earth shattering one. WHO wants to claim that the tempter, our adversary and enemy tempts us internally, in our own minds and hearts, and that our own sin is actually "of the devil"? Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8. Yeah, that one will leave a mark on you if you admit it, but alas, tis true.

It's not easy being a truthful believer. In fact I'd dare say the evil present within exactly none of us cooperates with God in Christ one little bit, even when we are speaking the truth.

But we can walk away from the table with honesty, which I consider to be a gift from Above

When we read about the good tree and the bad tree, are we only the good tree? Uh, no. We're all actually BOTH.

When we read about building our houses on rock or sand do we always and only do the rock side? Uh, no. That never happens. We all have things that need to sink in the storm.

When we read about goats and sheep in Matt. 25, why is it we never realize that when we're not doing sheep works we're doing goat works?

See the problem?

Jesus said man shall LIVE by every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

You might find that you've been missing out on half the Bible. Read the bad stuff and be thankful that God is against EVIL, even if it hurts you. Be thankful He's that way, even if you're not.

 

[Studyman]

Here is an instruction from Jesus

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 23:2-3 - New American Standard Bible

saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Therefore, whatever they tell you, do and comply with it all, but do not do as they do; for they say things and do not do them.

www.biblegateway.com

If a person believes all of the instructions of Jesus are for today, they will want to follow the teachings of the scribes and the Pharisees.

That could be the scribes and the Pharisees back then, or the Jewish rabbis today

Peace be with you!!

No, you are misrepresenting the point Jesus is making. The Jews were given the Oracles of God which contain Gods instruction in righteousness that HE created for the wellbeing of the Homeborn (Jew) and the Stranger that joins with them on their journey. (Gentile)

At this time in history, the Pharisees and Scribes read from the Law and Prophets every Sabbath day. You can read where the Gentiles learned about God though these priests in the temple who had exclusive access to the Bible, or as it is called by the Jesus "of the Bible", the Law and Prophets.

I would ask you, "who has access to the Moses and the Prophets now?" If you were honest, you would have to say that "You do". So now, in the same context, you "sit in Moses Seat", as you have clear access to and can read for yourself what God instructed the Jew and Non-Jew the "Way of the Lord" to walk in is. This would be the "good works" God before ordained that His People should walk in them, spoken of by Paul in Eph. 2, Yes? Do you not have access to the same Scriptures?

But what else did Jesus say?

"but do not ye after "their works": for they say, and "do not"."

So they "said" Gods "instruction in righteousness" that HE gave men through Moses, but they didn't "Do" what they said.

Jesus continues, "For they (Not God) "bind heavy burdens" and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is confirmed again in Acts 15:10.

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

So I'll ask you another question concerning your post, and we will see if you will answer.

"Why would I go to a Rabbi, or the Pope, or some random preacher promoting one of literally hundreds of different religious sects and businesses of this world that God placed me in, to learn about God, if I have His Oracles, AKA, Moses and the Prophets, in my own home?"

 

[Studyman]

Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic and the Greek texts are unfortunately mistaken in this case based on a single misinterpreted letter, (a waw suffix that is not in the Hebrew Shem Tob version). The context in the passage and even the whole account of Matthew, (and even the other Gospel accounts), tells us that this statement in Matthew 23:3 cannot be correct in the Greek versions. The statement is even a blatant contradiction to what follows in the same chapter-passage.

The Shem Tob Matthew version reads correctly, and this version was compiled and copied from an older version by someone, (the "Baal Shem Tov" ("Master of the Good Name")), who was using it in an anti-Christian polemic. In other words, he surely did not change the text for obvious reasons: for if his exemplar had said what the Greek texts now say, it would have been much more to his advantage to have such a statement in Matthew. Imagine an anti-messianic Rabbi reading such a statement: he would surely use it in a polemic against Christianity.

The following is essentially what is at play in the Hebrew. Even if you do not read Hebrew it is not difficult to see or understand, I will place the key word in red, (amar, to speak, to say, etc., etc.).

This is 1 Samuel 14:9 which begins with "If thus they say"

אִם־כֹּה יֹֽאמְרוּ אֵלֵינוּ דֹּמּוּ עַד־הַגִּיעֵנוּ אֲלֵיכֶם וְעָמַדְנוּ תַחְתֵּינוּ וְלֹא נַעֲלֶה אֲלֵיהֶֽם׃

Without the pointing, this is "they say" highlighted above in red: יאמרו
The final letter is the waw which tells you it means they say.

From Matthew 23:3, this is "he says" in the Shem Tob version: יאמר
There is no waw suffix: it reads, he says.

The difference is a mere single letter at the end of the word, the waw/vav. Moreover if you follow the pronouns the Shem Tob Hebrew version makes even more sense because "he says" refers directly back to Mosheh who was just mentioned.

Follow the pronouns:

The Scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh: therefore whatsoever he says to you, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

The entire argument changes on this seemingly insignificant little issue: for what the Master is actually telling his disciples is that because the Scribes and Pharisees sit in the seat of Mosheh, they themselves affirm that Mosheh is of a greater authority than they themselves, (for by sitting in the seat of Mosheh they by default claim him as their authority and the authority of the Torah over themselves), therefore whatsoever Mosheh says to you in the Torah, that do, but do not do as the Scribes and Pharisees do, (according to their works), because they say and do not do.

I do find it fascinating that you and I can come to the exact same conclusion sometimes, using completely different methods. I knew Messiah was speaking about those who has exclusive access to God's written instruction to Moses, or at least what God had preserved for people to hear, and the Pharisees and Scribes read from these Words every Sabbath day.

Acts 15: 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them (Pharisees and Scribes) that preach him, (Moses) being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I also understood the Prophets who spoke of this Priesthood, and how they (Pharisees and scribes) had, as Malachi teaches, "corrupted the Priesthood Covenant".

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye "have not kept my ways", but have been partial in the law.

You are right to declare, "Even if you do not read Hebrew it is not difficult to see or understand".

 

[Leaf473]

No, you are misrepresenting the point Jesus is making. The Jews were given the Oracles of God which contain Gods instruction in righteousness that HE created for the wellbeing of the Homeborn (Jew) and the Stranger that joins with them on their journey. (Gentile)

At this time in history, the Pharisees and Scribes read from the Law and Prophets every Sabbath day. You can read where the Gentiles learned about God though these priests in the temple who had exclusive access to the Bible, or as it is called by the Jesus "of the Bible", the Law and Prophets.

I would ask you, "who has access to the Moses and the Prophets now?"

People who can read and have internet access, or maybe listen to audio Bibles on YouTube

If you were honest, you would have to say that "You do".

So now, in the same context, you "sit in Moses Seat", as you have clear access to and can read for yourself what God instructed the Jew and Non-Jew the "Way of the Lord" to walk in is.

That's a possible, but not necessary, conclusion.

This would be the "good works" God before ordained that His People should walk in them, spoken of by Paul in Eph. 2, Yes? Do you not have access to the same Scriptures?

But what else did Jesus say?

"but do not ye after "their works": for they say, and "do not"."

So they "said" Gods "instruction in righteousness" that HE gave men through Moses, but they didn't "Do" what they said.

Jesus continues, "For they (Not God) "bind heavy burdens" and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; (Necks) but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is confirmed again in Acts 15:10.

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

So I'll ask you another question concerning your post, and we will see if you will answer.

"Why would I go to a Rabbi, or the Pope, or some random preacher promoting one of literally hundreds of different religious sects and businesses of this world that God placed me in, to learn about God, if I have His Oracles, AKA, Moses and the Prophets, in my own home?"

It would make sense to do that if God has placed them in authority.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 13:17 - New American Standard Bible

Obey your leaders and submit to them—for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account—so that they may do this with joy, not groaning; for this would be unhelpful for you.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Studyman]

People who can read and have internet access, or maybe listen to audio Bibles on YouTube



That's a possible, but not necessary, conclusion.



It would make sense to do that if God has placed them in authority.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 13:17 - New American Standard Bible

Obey your leaders and submit to them—for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account—so that they may do this with joy, not groaning; for this would be unhelpful for you.

www.biblegateway.com

I replied to your post "If a person believes all of the instructions of Jesus are for today, "they will want to follow the teachings of the scribes and the Pharisees."

The point being, that Jesus didn't want them to listen to the Pharisees or follow their religion, rather, He wanted them to listen to Moses.

Jesus instructed His Disciples to listen to Moses, being read every Sabbath Day in the Synagogues by the Pharisees and Scribes. The same way the Disciples turned the Gentiles away from the "Jews Religion" and towards Moses in Acts 15. He didn't instruct His Disciples to listen to the Pharisees doctrines, because as HE said, they were "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men", not God. They "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". And the Jesus "of the Bible" also said "they (Not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders". And HE said to them "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law".

So you were misinterpreting the Words of the Jesus "of the bible" with your statement, and therefore, as instructed, I am posting the Holy scriptures, and the Words of the very Christ, to show you where you were mistaken, that you might be corrected.

I also hope you might consider, that your error wasn't taught to you by the "Teachers" God chose and sent for us in the Oracles of God. You learned this false understanding by the "many" Jesus told you to "Take Heed" of.

I am persuaded that God's sent the Jesus, "of the Bible", along with Moses and the Prophets, and the Disciples God chose and gave to Jesus, to promote His Gospel of Salvation. The Gospel Paul taught where the Righteousness of God, and the Wrath of God against unrighteousness and ungodliness of men is revealed to anyone seeking it. Where from within it is written "The Just shall live by Faith". A Gospel where the Holy Scriptures are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

I know and am persuaded that God placed on these men the authority to teach me, "in the way that I should go", and promised to give me His Spirit of truth which was on them, "if I obey Him".

I am warned by all of these Holy Men to beware of religious men of this world who "transformed themselves" into apostles of Christ. In fact, the Jesus "of the Bible" told me to "Take Heed" of the "many" who come in His Name, and those who call Him Lord, Lord, but transgress Gods commandments by their own traditions, AKA "Work iniquity".

I understand that "many" who profess to know God", like the religious sect of the Pharisees, will not be persuaded to listen and take the warnings of the Jesus "of the Bible" seriously because HE told me so in a parable about the judgment day, and I believe Him.

Luke 16: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

For these reasons and more, I advocate that men live by "Every Word" of God, not just be hearers of them.

 

[Leaf473]

I replied to your post "If a person believes all of the instructions of Jesus are for today, "they will want to follow the teachings of the scribes and the Pharisees."

The point being, that Jesus didn't want them to listen to the Pharisees or follow their religion, rather, He wanted them to listen to Moses.

That is a possible, but not a necessary, conclusion

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 78:2 - New American Standard Bible

I will open my mouth in a parable; I will tell riddles of old,

www.biblegateway.com

Jesus instructed His Disciples to listen to Moses, being read every Sabbath Day in the Synagogues by the Pharisees and Scribes. The same way the Disciples turned the Gentiles away from the "Jews Religion" and towards Moses in Acts 15. He didn't instruct His Disciples to listen to the Pharisees doctrines, because as HE said, they were "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men", not God. They "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". And the Jesus "of the Bible" also said "they (Not God or Moses) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders". And HE said to them "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law".

So you were misinterpreting the Words of the Jesus "of the bible" with your statement, and therefore, as instructed, I am posting the Holy scriptures, and the Words of the very Christ, to show you where you were mistaken, that you might be corrected.

I also hope you might consider, that your error wasn't taught to you by the "Teachers" God chose and sent for us in the Oracles of God. You learned this false understanding by the "many" Jesus told you to "Take Heed" of.

I am persuaded that God's sent the Jesus, "of the Bible", along with Moses and the Prophets, and the Disciples God chose and gave to Jesus, to promote His Gospel of Salvation. The Gospel Paul taught where the Righteousness of God, and the Wrath of God against unrighteousness and ungodliness of men is revealed to anyone seeking it. Where from within it is written "The Just shall live by Faith". A Gospel where the Holy Scriptures are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

I know and am persuaded that God placed on these men the authority to teach me, "in the way that I should go", and promised to give me His Spirit of truth which was on them, "if I obey Him".

I am warned by all of these Holy Men to beware of religious men of this world who "transformed themselves" into apostles of Christ. In fact, the Jesus "of the Bible" told me to "Take Heed" of the "many" who come in His Name, and those who call Him Lord, Lord, but transgress Gods commandments by their own traditions, AKA "Work iniquity".

I understand that "many" who profess to know God", like the religious sect of the Pharisees, will not be persuaded to listen and take the warnings of the Jesus "of the Bible" seriously because HE told me so in a parable about the judgment day, and I believe Him.

Luke 16: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

For these reasons and more, I advocate that men live by "Every Word" of God, not just be hearers of them.

 

[Studyman]

That is a possible, but not a necessary, conclusion

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 78:2 - New American Standard Bible

I will open my mouth in a parable; I will tell riddles of old,

www.biblegateway.com

At some point, it seems a man who professes to know the Christ "of the Bible" should consider what is actually said by Him in the Holy Scriptures.

But like you say, this is a possible, but for "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, not a necessary conclusion.

 

[Leaf473]

At some point, it seems a man who professes to know the Christ "of the Bible" should consider what is actually said by Him in the Holy Scriptures.

Amen

Bible Gateway passage: John 17:3-4 - Good News Translation

And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I have shown your glory on earth; I have finished the work you gave me to do.

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But like you say, this is a possible, but for "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, not a necessary conclusion.

No, that's not what I was saying

A proverb which may or may not apply

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 13:23 - Good News Translation

Unused fields could yield plenty of food for the poor, but unjust people keep them from being farmed.

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