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Daniel, Chapters 13 & 14

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Why were they removed from the Bible?


Daniel 13

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition


13 Now there was a man that dwelt in Babylon, and his name was Joakim:

2 And he took a wife whose name was Susanna, the daughter of Helcias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared God.

3 For her parents being just, had instructed their daughter according to the law of Moses.

4 Now Joakim was very rich, and had an orchard near his house: and the Jews resorted to him, because he was the most honourable of them all.

5 And there were two of the ancients of the people appointed judges that year, of whom the Lord said: Iniquity came out from Babylon from the ancient judges, that seemed to govern the people.

6 These men frequented the house of Joakim, and all that had any matters of judgment came to them.

7 And when the people departed away at noon, Susanna went in, and walked in her husband's orchard.

8 And the old men saw her going in every day, and walking: and they were inflamed with lust towards her:

9 And they perverted their own mind and turned away their eyes that they might not look unto heaven, nor remember just judgments.

10 So they were both wounded with the love of her, yet they did not make known their grief one to the other:

11 For they were ashamed to declare to one another their lust, being desirous to have to do with her.

12 And they watched carefully every day to see her. And one said to the other:

13 Let us now go home, for it is dinner time. So going out they departed one from another.

14 And turning back again, they came both to the same place: and asking one another the cause, they acknowledged their lust; and then they agreed upon a time, when they might find her alone.

15 And it fell out, as they watched a fit day, she went in on a time, as yesterday and the day before, with two maids only, and was desirous to wash herself in the orchard: for it was hot weather.

16 And there was nobody there, but the two old men that had hid themselves and were beholding her.

17 So she said to the maids: Bring me oil, and washing balls, and shut the doors of the orchard, that I may wash me.

18 And they did as she bade them: and they shut the doors of the orchard, and went out by a back door to fetch what she had commanded them, and they knew not that the elders were hid within.

19 Now when the maids were gone forth, the two elders arose, and ran to her, and said:

20 Behold the doors of the orchard are shut, and nobody seeth us, and we are in love with thee: wherefore consent to us, and lie with us.

21 But if thou wilt not, we will bear witness against thee, that a young man was with thee, and therefore thou didst send away thy maids from thee.

22 Susanna sighed, and said: I am straitened on every side: for if I do this thing, it is death to me: and if I do it not, I shall not escape your hands.

23 But it is better for me to fall into your hands without doing it, than to sin in the sight of the Lord.

24 With that Susanna cried out with a loud voice: and the elders also cried out against her.

25 And one of them ran to the door of the orchard, and opened it.

26 So when the servants of the house heard the cry in the orchard, they rushed in by the back door to see what was the matter.

27 But after the old men had spoken, the servants were greatly ashamed: for never had there been any such word said of Susanna. And on the next day,

28 When the people were come to Joakim her husband, the two elders also came full of wicked device against Susanna, to put her to death.

29 And they said before the people: Send to Susanna daughter of Helcias the wife of Joakim. And presently they sent.

30 And she came with her parents, and children, and all her kindred.

31 Now Susanna was exceeding delicate, and beautiful to behold.

32 But those wicked men commanded that her face should be uncovered, (for she was covered,) that so at least they might be satisfied with her beauty.

33 Therefore her friends and all her acquaintance wept.

34 But the two elders rising up in the midst of the people, laid their hands upon her head.

35 And she weeping looked up to heaven, for her heart had confidence in the Lord.

36 And the elders said: As we walked in the orchard alone, this woman came in with two maids, and shut the doors of the orchard, and sent away the maids from her.

37 Then a young man that was there hid came to her, and lay with her.

38 But we that were in a corner of the orchard, seeing this wickedness, ran up to them, and we saw them lie together.

39 And him indeed we could not take, because he was stronger than us, and opening the doors he leaped out:

40 But having taken this woman, we asked who the young man was, but she would not tell us: of this thing we are witnesses.

41 The multitude believed them as being the elders and the judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.

42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said: O eternal God, who knowest hidden things, who knowest all things before they come to pass,

43 Thou knowest that they have borne false witness against me: and behold I must die, whereas I have done none of these things, which these men have maliciously forged against me.

44 And the Lord heard her voice.

45 And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel.

46 And he cried out with a loud voice I am clear from the blood of this woman.

47 Then all the people turning themselves towards him, said: What meaneth this word that thou hast spoken?

48 But he standing in the midst of them, said: Are ye so foolish, ye children of Israel, that without examination or knowledge of the truth, you have condemned a daughter of Israel?

49 Return to judgment, for they have borne false witness against her.

50 So all the people turned again in haste, and the old men said to him: Come, and sit thou down among us, and shew it us: seeing God hath given thee the honour of old age.

51 And Daniel said to the people: Separate these two far from one another, and I will examine them.

52 So when they were put asunder one from the other, he called one of them, and said to him: O thou that art grown old in evil days, now are thy sins come out, which thou hast committed before:

53 In judging unjust judgments, oppressing the innocent, and letting the guilty to go free, whereas the Lord saith: The innocent and the just thou shalt not kill.

54 Now then, if thou sawest her, tell me under what tree thou sawest them conversing together. He said: Under a mastic tree.

55 And Daniel said: Well hast thou lied against thy own head: for behold the angel of God having received the sentence of him, shall cut thee in two.

56 And having put him aside, he commanded that the other should come, and he said to him: O thou seed of Chanaan, and not of Juda, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust hath perverted thy heart:

57 Thus did you do to the daughters of Israel, and they for fear conversed with you: but a daughter of Juda would not abide your wickedness.

58 Now therefore tell me, under what tree didst thou take them conversing together. And he answered: Under a holm tree.

59 And Daniel said to him: Well hast thou also lied against thy own head: for the angel of the Lord waiteth with a sword to cut thee in two, and to destroy you.

60 With that all the assembly cried out with a loud voice, and they blessed God, who saveth them that trust in him.

61 And they rose up against the two elders, (for Daniel had convicted them of false witness by their own mouth,) and they did to them as they had maliciously dealt against their neighbour,

62 To fulfill the law of Moses: and they put them to death, and innocent blood was saved in that day.

63 But Helcias and his wife praised God, for their daughter Susanna, with Joakim her husband, and all her kindred, because there was no dishonesty found in her.

64 And Daniel became great in the sight of the people from that day, and thenceforward.

65 And king Astyages was gathered to his fathers, and Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 13 - Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
 
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Daniel 14

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition


14 And Daniel was the king's guest, and was honoured above all his friends.

2 Now the Babylonians had an idol called Bel: and there were spent upon him every day twelve great measures of fine flour, and forty sheep, and sixty vessels of wine.

3 The king also worshipped him, and went every day to adore him: but Daniel adored his God. And the king said to him: Why dost thou not adore Bel?

4 And he answered, and said to him: Because I do not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, that created heaven and earth, and hath power over all flesh.

5 And the king said to him: Doth not Bel seem to thee to be a living god? Seest thou not how much he eateth and drinketh every day?

6 Then Daniel smiled and said: O king, be not deceived: for this is but clay within, and brass without, neither hath he eaten at any time.

7 And the king being angry called for his priests, and said to them: If you tell me not, who it is that eateth up these expenses, you shall die.

8 But if you can shew that Bel eateth these things, Daniel shall die, because he hath blasphemed against Bel. And Daniel said to the king: Be it done according to thy word.

9 Now the priests of Bel were seventy, besides their wives, and little ones, and children. And the king went with Daniel into the temple of Bel.

10 And the priests of Bel said: Behold we go out: and do thou, O king, set on the meats, and make ready the wine, and shut the door fast, and seal it with thy own ring:

11 And when thou comest in the morning, if thou findest not that Bel hath eaten up all, we will suffer death, or else Daniel that hath lied against us.

12 And they little regarded it, because they had made under the table a secret entrance, and they always came in by it, and consumed those things.

13 So it came to pass after they were gone out, the king set the meats before Bel: and Daniel commanded his servants, and they brought ashes, and he sifted them all over the temple before the king: and going forth they shut the door, and having sealed it with the king's ring, they departed.

14 But the priests went in by night, according to their custom, with their wives and their children: and they ate and drank up all.

15 And the king arose early in the morning, and Daniel with him.

16 And the king said: Are the seals whole, Daniel? And he answered: They are whole, O king.

17 And as soon as he had opened the door, the king looked upon the table, and cried out with a loud voice: Great art thou, O Bel, and there is not any deceit with thee.

18 And Daniel laughed: and he held the king that he should not go in: and he said: Behold the pavement, mark whose footsteps these are.

19 And the king said: I see the footsteps of men, and women, and children. And the king was angry.

20 Then he took the priests, and their wives, and their children: and they shewed him the private doors by which they came in, and consumed the things that were on the table.

21 The king therefore put them to death, and delivered Bel into the power of Daniel: who destroyed him, and his temple.

22 And there was a great dragon in that place, and the Babylonians worshipped him.

23 And the king said to Daniel: Behold thou canst not say now, that this is not a living god: adore him therefore.

24 And Daniel said: I adore the Lord my God: for he is the living God: but that is no living god.

25 But give me leave, O king, and I will kill this dragon without sword or club. And the king said: I give thee leave.

26 Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and boiled them together: and he made lumps, and put them into the dragon's mouth, and the dragon burst asunder. And he said: Behold him whom you worshipped.

27 And when the Babylonians had heard this, they took great indignation: and being gathered together against the king, they said: The king is become a Jew. He hath destroyed Bel, he hath killed the dragon, and he hath put the priests to death.

28 And they came to the king, and said: Deliver us Daniel, or else we will destroy thee and thy house.

29 And the king saw that they pressed upon him violently: and being constrained by necessity he delivered Daniel to them.

30 And they cast him into the den of lions, and he was there six days.

31 And in the den there were seven lions, and they had given to them two carcasses every day, and two sheep: but then they were not given unto them, that they might devour Daniel.

32 Now there was in Judea a prophet called Habacuc, and he had boiled pottage, and had broken bread in a bowl: and was going into the field, to carry it to the reapers.

33 And the angel of the Lord said to Habacuc: Carry the dinner which thou hast into Babylon to Daniel, who is in the lions' den.

34 And Habacuc said: Lord, I never saw Babylon, nor do I know the den.

35 And the angel of the Lord took him by the top of his head, and carried him by the hair of his head, and set him in Babylon over the den in the force of his spirit.

36 And Habacuc cried, saying: O Daniel, thou servant of God, take the dinner that God hath sent thee.

37 And Daniel said: Thou hast remembered me, O God, and thou hast not forsaken them that love thee.

38 And Daniel arose and ate. And the angel of the Lord presently set Habacuc again in his own place.

39 And upon the seventh day the king came to bewail Daniel: and he came to the den, and looked in, and behold Daniel was sitting in the midst of the lions.

40 And the king cried out with a loud voice, saying: Great art thou, O Lord the God of Daniel. And he drew him out of the lions' den.

41 But those that had been the cause of his destruction, he cast into the den, and they were devoured in a moment before him.

42 Then the king said: Let all the inhabitants of the whole earth fear the God of Daniel: for he is the Saviour, working signs, and wonders in the earth: who hath delivered Daniel out of the lions' den.


Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 14 - Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
 
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Because the church fathers deemed them to be uninspired.

Precisely which church fathers would they be?

From what I can tell, those chapters are included in the Catholic Bible; and from what I can tell, they were originally included in the Geneva Bible of 1599, and the KJV of 1611.

Do you have a link to a source for your claim?
 
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According to Google Search, the works were removed because although existing in Greek Manuscripts, the chapters were not written in Hebrew Manuscripts. The chapters were included in Christian Canon until the Protestants removed them based on the question of authenticity.
.
 
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According to Google Search, the works were removed because although existing in Greek Manuscripts, the chapters were not written in Hebrew Manuscripts. The chapters were included in Christian Canon until the Protestants removed them based on the question of authenticity.

Can you provide a link to that source? I'd like to review it. I'm having trouble finding much information on this subject. As of yet, I've found nothing from any reliable academic source.
 
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The Dead Sea Scrolls contain Daniel but not those inserts.

This is valuable information. This edit was made after I made my last post. I would be extremely interested in your source for this claim.
 
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Sextus Julius Africanus did not regard the story as canonical. Jerome (347–420), while translating the Vulgate, treated this section as a non-canonical fable. In his introduction, he indicated that Susanna was an apocryphal addition because it was not present in the Hebrew text of Daniel.
Susanna (Book of Daniel) - Wikipedia.

This is the best I can do. It appears those parts of Daniel have been controversial for a long time. I even found a reference to the story appearing in the earliest KJV (??) It has been removed from some Protestant bibles. It doesn't appear in the Hebrew text.
I found a person who claimed it was not in the Dead Sea Scrolls but I found other sources that seem to indicate it was. So I withdraw that. I can't find a definitive link although what is in the Scrolls is well known, just not widely available.
 
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I just found some more information on this subject here:

Aramaic Memories of Daniel Recovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls

"The Qumran Aramaic collection, however, revealed a yet unknown and broader profile of the figure of Daniel in several works. While we were familiar with other Daniel traditions from the so-called “Additions” in the Septuagint, Cave Four included at least two new works that cast a Daniel in new settings and associate him with fresh revelations.

These so-called Pseudo-Daniel fragments help us see that Daniel’s persona in ancient Judaism extended well beyond the twelve-chapter book received in the Hebrew Bible and Old Testament."

 
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Sextus Julius Africanus did not regard the story as canonical. Jerome (347–420), while translating the Vulgate, treated this section as a non-canonical fable. In his introduction, he indicated that Susanna was an apocryphal addition because it was not present in the Hebrew text of Daniel.
Susanna (Book of Daniel) - Wikipedia.

The Hebrew Bible had already been canonized by then; but that happened after the fall of the Temple.
 
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Not a scholar on Bible. I will wager the Bible Scholars on this issue will be along shortly. There are many people on the forum who probably know a bit more than I can find on Google.
I did say that there are two different, seemingly authoritarian sources who contradict each other about the Dead Sea Scrolls
Interesting question. I am glad you posted it. Sorry I couldn't add anymore than an arrow in the right direction.
What I haven't seen is Who Exactly and When it was removed and from which translations of the Bible. "Generic" Protestants, very vague.
 
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Not a scholar on Bible. I will wager the Bible Scholars on this issue will be along shortly. There are many people on the forum that probably know a bit more than I can find on Google.
I did say that there are two different, seemingly authoritarian sources who contradict each other about the Dead Sea Scrolls
Interesting question. I am glad you posted it. Sorry I couldn't add anymore than an arrow in the right direction.

Thank you for your help. You've actually been very helpful. You inspired to look into the Qumran scrolls on this subject. I should have thought about that sooner; as a love to study those scrolls.

This bunny hole goes deeper than I had expected.

Thanks again
 
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Genuine Bunny Hole indeed. It may be that Africanus and Jerome recognized that as a fable from another tradition. It may have come from another cultures stories. It would be like finding the story of Cinderella in an Oxford History of England. I agree it is suspect.
 
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Genuine Bunny Hole indeed. It may be that Africanus and Jerome recognized that as a fable from another tradition. It may have come from another cultures stories. It would be like finding the story of Cinderella in an Oxford History of England. I agree it is suspect.

Because of the conflicting information surrounding this subject; it's all suspect. I'll wait until I've exhausted the evidence before I form an opinion. I'll wait until I find something definitive before I draw a conclusion.
 
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Because of the conflicting information surrounding this subject; it's all suspect. I'll wait until I've exhausted the evidence before I form an opinion. I'll wait until I find something definitive before I draw a conclusion.

Will the content add to or modify your theology?
 
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Will the content add to or modify your theology?

The more appropriate question would be:

"Would the content add to or modify your theology?"

Again, I haven't drawn a conclusion on this subject. I'm early in the stages of forming an opinion, of which hasn't been formed.

If this is inspired by Elohim; I don't believe that he wastes words; that all of his word should be applied to our lives.

If I don't understand what that application should be; then I believe that I'm called to seek out that understanding.
 
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Why were they removed from the Bible?


Daniel 13

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition


13 Now there was a man that dwelt in Babylon, and his name was Joakim:

2 And he took a wife whose name was Susanna, the daughter of Helcias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared God.

3 For her parents being just, had instructed their daughter according to the law of Moses.

4 Now Joakim was very rich, and had an orchard near his house: and the Jews resorted to him, because he was the most honourable of them all.

5 And there were two of the ancients of the people appointed judges that year, of whom the Lord said: Iniquity came out from Babylon from the ancient judges, that seemed to govern the people.

6 These men frequented the house of Joakim, and all that had any matters of judgment came to them.

7 And when the people departed away at noon, Susanna went in, and walked in her husband's orchard.

8 And the old men saw her going in every day, and walking: and they were inflamed with lust towards her:

9 And they perverted their own mind and turned away their eyes that they might not look unto heaven, nor remember just judgments.

10 So they were both wounded with the love of her, yet they did not make known their grief one to the other:

11 For they were ashamed to declare to one another their lust, being desirous to have to do with her.

12 And they watched carefully every day to see her. And one said to the other:

13 Let us now go home, for it is dinner time. So going out they departed one from another.

14 And turning back again, they came both to the same place: and asking one another the cause, they acknowledged their lust; and then they agreed upon a time, when they might find her alone.

15 And it fell out, as they watched a fit day, she went in on a time, as yesterday and the day before, with two maids only, and was desirous to wash herself in the orchard: for it was hot weather.

16 And there was nobody there, but the two old men that had hid themselves and were beholding her.

17 So she said to the maids: Bring me oil, and washing balls, and shut the doors of the orchard, that I may wash me.

18 And they did as she bade them: and they shut the doors of the orchard, and went out by a back door to fetch what she had commanded them, and they knew not that the elders were hid within.

19 Now when the maids were gone forth, the two elders arose, and ran to her, and said:

20 Behold the doors of the orchard are shut, and nobody seeth us, and we are in love with thee: wherefore consent to us, and lie with us.

21 But if thou wilt not, we will bear witness against thee, that a young man was with thee, and therefore thou didst send away thy maids from thee.

22 Susanna sighed, and said: I am straitened on every side: for if I do this thing, it is death to me: and if I do it not, I shall not escape your hands.

23 But it is better for me to fall into your hands without doing it, than to sin in the sight of the Lord.

24 With that Susanna cried out with a loud voice: and the elders also cried out against her.

25 And one of them ran to the door of the orchard, and opened it.

26 So when the servants of the house heard the cry in the orchard, they rushed in by the back door to see what was the matter.

27 But after the old men had spoken, the servants were greatly ashamed: for never had there been any such word said of Susanna. And on the next day,

28 When the people were come to Joakim her husband, the two elders also came full of wicked device against Susanna, to put her to death.

29 And they said before the people: Send to Susanna daughter of Helcias the wife of Joakim. And presently they sent.

30 And she came with her parents, and children, and all her kindred.

31 Now Susanna was exceeding delicate, and beautiful to behold.

32 But those wicked men commanded that her face should be uncovered, (for she was covered,) that so at least they might be satisfied with her beauty.

33 Therefore her friends and all her acquaintance wept.

34 But the two elders rising up in the midst of the people, laid their hands upon her head.

35 And she weeping looked up to heaven, for her heart had confidence in the Lord.

36 And the elders said: As we walked in the orchard alone, this woman came in with two maids, and shut the doors of the orchard, and sent away the maids from her.

37 Then a young man that was there hid came to her, and lay with her.

38 But we that were in a corner of the orchard, seeing this wickedness, ran up to them, and we saw them lie together.

39 And him indeed we could not take, because he was stronger than us, and opening the doors he leaped out:

40 But having taken this woman, we asked who the young man was, but she would not tell us: of this thing we are witnesses.

41 The multitude believed them as being the elders and the judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.

42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said: O eternal God, who knowest hidden things, who knowest all things before they come to pass,

43 Thou knowest that they have borne false witness against me: and behold I must die, whereas I have done none of these things, which these men have maliciously forged against me.

44 And the Lord heard her voice.

45 And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel.

46 And he cried out with a loud voice I am clear from the blood of this woman.

47 Then all the people turning themselves towards him, said: What meaneth this word that thou hast spoken?

48 But he standing in the midst of them, said: Are ye so foolish, ye children of Israel, that without examination or knowledge of the truth, you have condemned a daughter of Israel?

49 Return to judgment, for they have borne false witness against her.

50 So all the people turned again in haste, and the old men said to him: Come, and sit thou down among us, and shew it us: seeing God hath given thee the honour of old age.

51 And Daniel said to the people: Separate these two far from one another, and I will examine them.

52 So when they were put asunder one from the other, he called one of them, and said to him: O thou that art grown old in evil days, now are thy sins come out, which thou hast committed before:

53 In judging unjust judgments, oppressing the innocent, and letting the guilty to go free, whereas the Lord saith: The innocent and the just thou shalt not kill.

54 Now then, if thou sawest her, tell me under what tree thou sawest them conversing together. He said: Under a mastic tree.

55 And Daniel said: Well hast thou lied against thy own head: for behold the angel of God having received the sentence of him, shall cut thee in two.

56 And having put him aside, he commanded that the other should come, and he said to him: O thou seed of Chanaan, and not of Juda, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust hath perverted thy heart:

57 Thus did you do to the daughters of Israel, and they for fear conversed with you: but a daughter of Juda would not abide your wickedness.

58 Now therefore tell me, under what tree didst thou take them conversing together. And he answered: Under a holm tree.

59 And Daniel said to him: Well hast thou also lied against thy own head: for the angel of the Lord waiteth with a sword to cut thee in two, and to destroy you.

60 With that all the assembly cried out with a loud voice, and they blessed God, who saveth them that trust in him.

61 And they rose up against the two elders, (for Daniel had convicted them of false witness by their own mouth,) and they did to them as they had maliciously dealt against their neighbour,

62 To fulfill the law of Moses: and they put them to death, and innocent blood was saved in that day.

63 But Helcias and his wife praised God, for their daughter Susanna, with Joakim her husband, and all her kindred, because there was no dishonesty found in her.

64 And Daniel became great in the sight of the people from that day, and thenceforward.

65 And king Astyages was gathered to his fathers, and Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 13 - Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

Josephus makes the statement in the first century that the Hebrew Bible was unchanged for over 300 years and was kept in the temple - preserved already canonized - so the issue is not why these chapter were removed - but why they were later added.
 
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Josephus makes the statement in the first century that the Hebrew Bible was unchanged for over 300 years and was kept in the temple - preserved already canonized - so the issue is not why these chapter were removed - but why they were later added.

The Zadok Priesthood was ousted from the temple at around 175 BC.

Rachel Elior makes a link between that event and the scrolls found at Qumran:




There were variants found in the scrolls at Qumran. By that I mean that there were variants among the various copies of the books of the Bible found a Qumran.

If you look at post 11 you will see that 4Q551 Daniel Susanna was found at Qumran.

This wouldn't be the first time that Josephus gave us false testimony.

The Hebrew Bible wasn't canonized until after the fall of the Temple.
 
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