Chuck Baldwin

[JM]

From Baldwin's FB profile.

A Facebook post is not the place to go into an in-depth theological discussion about prophecy. However, I have always been transparently honest with my viewers,... listeners, readers, followers, and supporters, and so I need to let folks know how my position has changed--and continues to change--on the subject of Eschatology.

I am not a novice on the subject. I have been in the Gospel ministry for over 40 years. And, until recently, my interpretation of Bible prophecy had been exclusively along the lines of dispensationalism and pre-tribulation rapturism. Until recently, I held the same Zionist positions as men such as John Hagee, Pat Robertson, and most preachers commonly associated with the "Religious Right." But no longer.

It's not easy to admit that something I had believed for a lifetime is not Biblically correct. It would have been easy to turn a blind eye to the illuminations that were appearing before my heart and mind, and search no further. Doing so would have saved me much additional study--not to mention a healthy dose of humble pie.

But study, I did. And pray, I did. And swallow my traditional thinking and personal pride, I did. As a result:

1) I no longer believe that Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy had any gap of time. I believe Daniel's Seventy Weeks (or 490 years) ran concurrently and were completely fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ, by the conversions of Saul of Tarsus and the Gentile Cornelius, and ultimately by the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD.

I am convinced there is no "gap theory" in Daniel 9 anymore than there is a "gap theory" in Genesis 1.

2) I no longer believe Ezekiel's prophecy of Gog and Magog has anything to do with modern Russia. I believe both Ezekiel and Daniel's prophecies in this regard were fulfilled by the invasion of Jerusalem and Judea by Antiochus Epiphanes.

3) I no longer believe Matthew 24 deals primarily with Christ's Second Coming but has more to do with the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

4) I no longer believe that the modern State of Israel has any connection to Biblical Israel--past or future. And, no, I do not believe in "Replacement Theology," at least not as most people talk about it.

Accordingly, I do not believe the people of the United States have any Biblical reason to support the modern State of Israel militarily, economically, or in any other way. Our relationship with foreign nations (including Israel) should only be for the benefit of the liberty and safety of the United States. Which leads to:


The United States, Israel, and Saudi Arabia created ISIS and have used the Sunni Muslim terror group to fight a proxy war against Syria's King Assad. This is a despicable and illegal war that can only be regarded as international criminality. Putin is wearing the white hat on this one. And the western globalists who are calling the shots in Washington, D.C. for these illegal wars should be identified, rounded up, and hung for crimes against humanity and for international crimes of aggression.

I know my positions stated above will not be popular with many of my Christian friends. But, at least, give me the benefit of the doubt that, being as seasoned and tenured as I am, I would not come to such diametrically opposite conclusions suddenly or without much heartfelt prayer and study.

 

[BABerean2]

Pastor Baldwin has done something that few pastors can do.

He said... "I was wrong."

Pride is one of the most powerful forces on earth. Only the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of a believer allows a man to overcome his own selfish pride and speak the truth.

Sadly, he will be condemned by many of his fellow pastors for speaking the truth in love.


Thank God for men like Pastor Chuck Baldwin.

 

[keras]

Believing that all, except the Return of Jesus, has been fulfilled leaves one unprepared physically and spiritually for all that is prophesied to happen before the glorious Day. Paul said that Day would not come until the man of sin was revealed. That man will enthrone himself in the Temple and claim to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
How can there be a new Temple?
How can 'that adversary' be raised up to power?
Who are the people in Jerusalem that say: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord. ?

No, preterism is a wrong belief, God has given us all the information about His plans for us in the last days. To ignore, abrogate, spiritualize, or throw into history about 1/3rd of our Bibles, cannot be right.

 

[JM]

Believing that all, except the Return of Jesus, has been fulfilled leaves one unprepared physically and spiritually for all that is prophesied to happen before the glorious Day. Paul said that Day would not come until the man of sin was revealed. That man will enthrone himself in the Temple and claim to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
How can there be a new Temple?
How can 'that adversary' be raised up to power?
Who are the people in Jerusalem that say: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord. ?

No, preterism is a wrong belief, God has given us all the information about His plans for us in the last days. To ignore, abrogate, spiritualize, or throw into history about 1/3rd of our Bibles, cannot be right.

Who said he was a Preterist? He could be a Historicist or an old Historical Premillennialist. You see, Futurism is not the standard. The older forms of eschatology have a lot on common only Futurism stands out as odd.

 

[BABerean2]

Believing that all, except the Return of Jesus, has been fulfilled leaves one unprepared physically and spiritually for all that is prophesied to happen before the glorious Day. Paul said that Day would not come until the man of sin was revealed. That man will enthrone himself in the Temple and claim to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
How can there be a new Temple?
How can 'that adversary' be raised up to power?
Who are the people in Jerusalem that say: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord. ?

No, preterism is a wrong belief, God has given us all the information about His plans for us in the last days. To ignore, abrogate, spiritualize, or throw into history about 1/3rd of our Bibles, cannot be right.

In Matthew chapter 24 the disciples asked Jesus two questions...

When will the temple be destroyed?

What will be the sign of thy "parousia" coming?

Jesus answered the first question in the first half of Matthew chapter 24 and He answered the second question about his future Second Coming in the last half of Matthew chapter 24.

If any of the text speaks of the destruction of the temple, it would make Christ a Partial-Preterist.

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[keras]

Futurism, or better stated as the belief in the literal [where possible] fulfilment of Bible prophecy, has gained credence in these days because we ARE in the last days. Daniel 12:8 says understanding will only be possible close to the time of their fulfilment.

I note no one has attempted to answer my questions of #3.

 

[BABerean2]

Who are the people in Jerusalem that say: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord. ?

One of the times it had to occur was on the day of Pentecost.



Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Also, during the present time thousands of the descendants of Jacob are coming to faith in Christ.

.

 

[keras]

One of the times it had to occur was on the day of Pentecost.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Also, during the present time thousands of the descendants of Jacob are coming to faith in Christ.

There is no mention of those in the upper room saying; Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
This must happen at the physical Return of Jesus, not the spiritual coming of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, millions of the descendants of Jacob are Christians and at least 24,000 are Jewish. They will make up the 12,000 of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as per Revelation 7:5-8 The other 10 tribes remain scattered among the nations, awaiting the Day of the Lord's wrath to prepare for their return to their heritage. Jeremiah 50:4-5

 

[BABerean2]

There is no mention of those in the upper room saying; Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord.
This must happen at the physical Return of Jesus, not the spiritual coming of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, millions of the descendants of Jacob are Christians and at least 24,000 are Jewish. They will make up the 12,000 of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as per Revelation 7:5-8 The other 10 tribes remain scattered among the nations, awaiting the Day of the Lord's wrath to prepare for their return to their heritage. Jeremiah 50:4-5

You are interpreting the scripture to make it fit your doctrine.

That everlasting covenant in Jeremiah chapter 50 is the same New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13.

It was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, with Israelites like the Apostle Paul, almost 2,000 years ago.

It is also found at the end of Romans chapter 11.

It is not awaiting some future fulfillment. It is in effect now.

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[keras]

The still to happen re-joining of the House of Judah with the House of Israel, is easily provable by reading Ezekiel 37 and seeing how the promises of God to them are not apparent in the current State of Israel.
Israel is prophesied to 'be as numerous as the sands of the sea'. About 8 million Jews live in Israel and another 8 million are identifiable elsewhere.
The new Covenant will be made with all the Lord's righteous people when He gathers them into all of the Holy Land. He will 'set His Laws into their hearts and all will know Him'. Jeremiah 31:30-34 Thinking that this has happened is plain wrong.

 

[BABerean2]

The new Covenant will be made with all the Lord's righteous people when He gathers them into all of the Holy Land. He will 'set His Laws into their hearts and all will know Him'. Jeremiah 31:30-34 Thinking that this has happened is plain wrong.

Tell it to the writer of Hebrews...


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (KJV)


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (ESV)


The tense of the passage clearly shows that it is now in effect.

It happened with the Apostle Paul and those of his time who accepted the New Covenant of Christ.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(NKJV)



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (KJV)

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[keras]

So, reading on: Hebrews 8:7-12.....The time is coming when I shall make a new Covenant with Judah and Israel......For this is the Covenant I will make after those days, I shall set My Laws into their hearts, pardon them and they all will know Me......
Not happened yet and we continue to take the Communion of His blood in the promise of it's future fulfillment.

Note that prophecy is often written in past or present tense, because that confirms the surety of it's fulfilment.

The writer of Hebrews also said there is coming a fierce fire that will consume God's enemies. Hebrews 3:27
This will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will enable the Lord's righteous people to gather and live in all of the Holy Land, when the new Covenant will finally be implemented. Hosea 2:8-23, Jeremiah 32:37-44

 

[BABerean2]

So, reading on: Hebrews 8:7-12.....The time is coming when I shall make a new Covenant with Judah and Israel......For this is the Covenant I will make after those days, I shall set My Laws into their hearts, pardon them and they all will know Me......
Not happened yet and we continue to take the Communion of His blood in the promise of it's future fulfillment.

You should know that this is a direct quote from Jeremiah chapter 31, which is the reason for the change in tense.

The New King James version uses capital letters to show the parts of the text which come from the Book of Jeremiah.

Verse 8:6 shows it to now be in effect.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

..............................................................


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—


Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.


Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

[keras]

Yes, am quite familiar with both Hebrews and Jeremiah.
Therefore, its plain to me that that this promise is NOT yet been fulfilled. How can you think the Laws are written onto our hearts, when the established church is in such disarray? When did the Lord forgive all our sins?
Reading of Jeremiah 30/31 makes it obvious that it is only when all of the Lord's people are settled into all of the Holy Land, will the New Covenant come into effect.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, am quite familiar with both Hebrews and Jeremiah.
Therefore, its plain to me that that this promise is NOT yet been fulfilled. How can you think the Laws are written onto our hearts, when the established church is in such disarray? When did the Lord forgive all our sins?
Reading of Jeremiah 30/31 makes it obvious that it is only when all of the Lord's people are settled into all of the Holy Land, will the New Covenant come into effect.

Do you just ignore the verse that disagrees with your viewpoint?


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


The Holy Spirit writes the Laws on our heart when we are indwelled upon faith.

The Lord forgave our sins on the day Jesus was crucified. He paid our sin debt at the Cross.

The whole New Testament is about the New Covenant.

Ignorance of the New Covenant is one of the greatest errors of the modern Church.

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[keras]

Do you just ignore the verse that disagrees with your viewpoint?

No, I don't ignore any scripture.
But if you insist on Hebrews 8:6 being a past fulfilment, then you are making the Bible contradict itself.
The fact of prophecy being written as though it has already been fulfilled, is known by all good Bible scholars, Isaiah 53 is a good example.
Christ HAS achieved all of the new Covenant promise's, but they await full implementation on earth.

 

[BABerean2]

No, I don't ignore any scripture.
But if you insist on Hebrews 8:6 being a past fulfilment, then you are making the Bible contradict itself.

(JM, I apologize for getting off track from your original post. However, our discussion is somewhat related.)

Now Keras I want to get this straight. Hebrews 8:6 was written in the present tense almost 2,000 years ago and you are telling me it has not been fulfilled...


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.




Have the following verses been fulfilled?


Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Anyone who has to ignore a verse or change the tense of that verse to make their doctrine work, is the one making the Bible contradict itself.

If the New Covenant is not in effect, then what covenant are we under?
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[keras]

Now Keras I want to get this straight. Hebrews 8:6 was written in the present tense almost 2,000 years ago and you are telling me it has not been fulfilled...

Yes, they have not yet been completely fulfilled. This is perfectly evident from the fact that: His Laws are not yet written into our hearts, all, high and low, do not yet know the Lord and He hasn't yet pardoned all our wicked deeds. Hebrews 8:6-13
You also choose to ignore the context of Jeremiah 30/31, that clearly prophesying a time when the Lord's righteous people will be living in all of the Holy Land.
The new Covenant will be instituted with His people soon after the Sixth Seal, as per Revelation 7

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, they have not yet been completely fulfilled. This is perfectly evident from the fact that: His Laws are not yet written into our hearts

His Holy Spirit now dwells inside of those in-Christ. He writes the Laws upon our hearts.
We are the temple of the Holy Spirit.


Mar_12:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: thisisthe first commandment.



Luk_10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Luk_24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Act_4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Act_8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[keras]

None of your quotes prove that the Laws are 'written into Christians hearts'. In fact, judging by the pastors that commit adultery, church treasurers that embezzle funds and the general fallen nature of most everyone, you are dreaming if you think that prophecy is fulfilled.
I am certainly not exempt from the possibility of sin, are you?
Great will be the Day, when we will all truly know the Lord and He forgives us our sins.
Micah 7:18-20.....You forgive the sins of the remnant of Your people....
This will happen AFTER the Day of punishment for the godless. Micah 7:4