Christian Deism

[Vanguard PCD]

I have often been asked what my personal beliefs are, both here and abroad. I am fully aware that some of the things that I say are not orthodox. Perhaps the following will give some insight as to how I think and where I am coming from...

I am a Christian. I believe in God. I believe that Jesus was the Messiah and God's Son, and His sacrifice gave way for our salvation. I have been baptised. I believe that there is an afterlife in paradise, after the resurrections and judgment. I believe that miracles can happen, even though we don't really see them anymore.

I am a deist. I believe that God is the all powerful creator. He designed nature and the laws that govern it. He set everything in motion, and things happen per those laws. He takes a hands off approach and lets things happen naturally. He cares for us, but He does not interfere with us. I believe in free will, and that God does not interfere with free will. Our choices are our own.

I have no problems reconciling religion and science, especially theistic evolution. I believe in the ability to reason. If you combine the elements of all, you get what I refer to as Christian Deism.

To add some flavor, these are some of my personal beliefs, after years of study:

1. The Bible is not inerrant, as it was written by humans. Divinely inspired, yes, but that does not mean dictated verbatim. Most were interpretations of dreams/visions, and those were subject to cultural influences of the time.

2. If you are not fluent in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek, then you are not getting 100% accuracy from an English translation. In many cases, the translations are "best guess." Idioms and the time period culture are missing from your understanding. Translations are subject to revisions.

3. Some modern Christian "beliefs" have a tendency to be traditional (not necessarily biblical) and influenced by fictional works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost. Other cultures most definitely influenced early Judaism and Christianity, ancient Babylon and Egypt especially. People were nomadic and their stories traveled and grew over time. The Romans did the same thing.

4. God is omnipotent, the supreme being, and the creator of all. Satan is the title, not name, of a being created by God to serve as God's appointed adversary. His role is to test us to see if we will hold true to our faith, or succumb to temptation. He is subject to God's divine authority. Nothing happens without God's permission, outside of human free will.

5. I do not blame bad things on a devil, demons, curses, or anything of the sort. See #4 above. If Satan was this evil arch enemy of God, then God could simply uncreate him, if He so desired. Who are we to restrict what God can and can't do?

6. I do not take the entire Bible literally. It uses metaphors, allegory, parables, etc. In many cases, it was ancient man trying to explain something they did not understand.

7. Religious institutions probably agree with many of my points, but they refuse to change what they have preached for so long. Better to keep up appearances verses having to say "we were wrong," and risk losing tithe paying church members who found out they have been lied to, or at least misled.

The non-religious stuff...

8. I believe in life elsewhere in the universe. There are billions of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. It is one of billions of galaxies in the universe. The odds that we are alone are just astronomically small. Ancient man, who write the Bible, knew nothing of the cosmos, and had no way of peering into space (much less exploring it).

9. Humanity is inherently evil. Lying, cheating, stealing, bullying and killing are far easier than being righteous, honest, forgiving and compassionate.

10. Religions are a collection of beliefs based on theories and stories, that can't be proven one way or another. Some people take their religion to the extreme. Many people fail to follow the simplest of commandments, such as "judge not, least you be judged." I view world religions as being a part of one tree, that just sprouted several branches.

 

[single eye]

You say " use verses in context." and " be open minded". This is really good advice and I wa wondering if you actually believe it? I have found that the bible is not a single context, but three. The 39 books of the o.t. is a context of works. Paul and his followers is a context of being set free from the law of sin & death. Jesus and the saints taught the context of grace. I do not find these three contexts to be compatable.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

You say " use verses in context." and " be open minded". This is really good advice and I wa wondering if you actually believe it? I have found that the bible is not a single context, but three. The 39 books of the o.t. is a context of works. Paul and his followers is a context of being set free from the law of sin & death. Jesus and the saints taught the context of grace. I do not find these three contexts to be compatable.

I do believe in using versus in context and being open minded. That is why I am no longer Southern Baptist.

 

[CherubRam]

I would say that sums it up very well. Something to remember is that, if it was not a belief in Orthodox Judaism, then there is a problem.

 

[timewerx]

The non-religious stuff...

8. I believe in life elsewhere in the universe. There are billions of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. It is one of billions of galaxies in the universe. The odds that we are alone are just astronomically small. Ancient man, who write the Bible, knew nothing of the cosmos, and had no way of peering into space (much less exploring it).

That is actually the correct context in the Bible. I made a couple of threads in the past about it.

The "Earth" is actually the collective term for all the "coalesced dust" throughout our galaxy - ie separation of dust (Earth) from the interstellar gases/plasma (sky).

"Nations" also include other habitable planets.

"utter darkness" is the space beyond a galaxy or between galaxies. Stars can exist in this space called "rogue stars".

There's many more I have pointed out in my previous threads that match Biblical literature like nothing else and clearly does not as closely match planetary interpretations.

9. Humanity is inherently evil. Lying, cheating, stealing, bullying and killing are far easier than being righteous, honest, forgiving and compassionate.

That is partially true but there are also some who are *born* with good nature and not inherently evil who maybe later on corrupted by the world but generally predisposed towards doing good by nature. I'm NOT talking of certain races. You'll find such people in all races but they are few!

10. Religions are a collection of beliefs based on theories and stories, that can't be proven one way or another. Some people take their religion to the extreme. Many people fail to follow the simplest of commandments, such as "judge not, least you be judged..."

The stories are difficult to prove. But the moral logic can be proven using scientific methods. And it is interesting to point out that the moral logic of Jesus alone (excluding other teachers like Solomon, Moses, Paul, David, etc) are scientifically sound!

But Solomon's, Paul's, Moses, David are not, and contained many errors and often contradicted the teachings of Jesus.


It's hard to see these errors if you have blind faith... True Christianity is done with eyes opened!

 

[single eye]

"the bible is not inerrant" true, but scripture is. The problem was not with the human authors, it was with the people who selected the books of the bible. They combined some scripture with a lot of non-scripture.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

"the bible is not inerrant" true, but scripture is. The problem was not with the human authors, it was with the people who selected the books of the bible. They combined some scripture with a lot of non-scripture.

This still happens today. Protestants reject the Apocrypha, yet the 1611 KJV contained it. I prefer to read all of the material surrounding Abrahamic religions. Why limit yourself to a one sided view?

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Incidentally, for those living in the USA, do you realize that several of the Founding Fathers were deists, either by proclamation or their views on religion? That list would include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and Thomas Paine.

Other famous deists would include Leonardo da Vinci, Mark Twain, Neil Armstrong, Thomas Edison, and Wernher von Braun.

Deism as a whole grew at a rate of 717% in the US, from 1990 to 2001. It still grows to this day. People are starting to open their eyes and think for themselves.

 

[Der Alte]

Incidentally, for those living in the USA, do you realize that several of the Founding Fathers were deists, either by proclamation or their views on religion? That list would include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and Thomas Paine.

Other famous deists would include Leonardo da Vinci, Mark Twain, Neil Armstrong, Thomas Edison, and Wernher von Braun.

Deism as a whole grew at a rate of 717% in the US, from 1990 to 2001. It still grows to this day. People are starting to open their eyes and think for themselves.

Which implies that anyone who doesn't roll belly up like a dead guppy and follow deism like a Lemming does not think for themself.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Which implies that anyone who doesn't roll belly up like a dead guppy and follow deism like a Lemming does not think for themself.

Nah.

Nothing wrong with people thinking for themselves instead of blindly following the crowd without really understanding what it is they are following. God gave us the ability to reason.

 

[Der Alte]

Nah.

Nothing wrong with people thinking for themselves instead of blindly following the crowd without really understanding what it is they are following. God gave us the ability to reason.

And I have been doing just that, thinking for myself and not blindly following anything or anybody, for about twice as long as you have been alive. I read both Biblical languages and have for more than 3 decades and I am pretty sure I fully understand what, rather who, I follow and I don't care how many presidents, scientists, etc. did otherwise.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

I read both Biblical languages and have for more than 3 decades...

Both? There are 3...Aramaic was used as well.

 

[Der Alte]

Both? There are 3...Aramaic was used as well.

So sue me.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I
1. The Bible is not inerrant, as it was written by humans. Divinely inspired, yes, but that does not mean dictated verbatim. Most were interpretations of dreams/visions, and those were subject to cultural influences of the time.


3. Some modern Christian "beliefs" have a tendency to be traditional (not necessarily biblical) and influenced by fictional works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost. Other cultures most definitely influenced early Judaism and Christianity, ancient Babylon and Egypt especially. People were nomadic and their stories traveled and grew over time. The Romans did the same thing.


6. I do not take the entire Bible literally. It uses metaphors, allegory, parables, etc. In many cases, it was ancient man trying to explain something they did not understand.

Um...why does #3 and #6 matter if you believe #1?

 

[Soma Seer]

Hi, Primi Agminis.

Based on your OP, I could call myself a Deist, or Christian Deist, as well. I prefer Christian Mystic but know that it's just a label like any other that people use to define--and often confine--their beliefs.

I agree with nearly all of your points; the few things that I disagree with don't upset me one whit, as I've no corner on the Truth. I'm open to the idea that I may be wrong and, so, am content to find out one way or the other after I leave this mortal coil.


All the best,

SS

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Um...why does #3 and #6 matter if you believe #1?

#1 talks about humans writing the Bible and where some of their ideas came from, and the concept of divine inspiration. Every single author of the autographs was always alone when he was divinely inspired.

#3 talks about history and how it helped shape the stories found in the Bible. Not everything was a dream/vision. Much of it was oral tradition. This separates itself from #1.

#6 is simply a statement dealing with the lessons to be learned in the stories that come from #1 and #3. Many Orthodox Jews do not take all of the OT stories literally. They recognize that they are told as a way to teach a lesson.

 

[Defensor Christi]

#1 talks about humans writing the Bible and where some of their ideas came from, and the concept of divine inspiration. Every single author of the autographs was always alone when he was divinely inspired.

#3 talks about history and how it helped shape the stories found in the Bible. Not everything was a dream/vision. Much of it was oral tradition. This separates itself from #1.

#6 is simply a statement dealing with the lessons to be learned in the stories that come from #1 and #3. Many Orthodox Jews do not take all of the OT stories literally. They recognize that they are told as a way to teach a lesson.

My point is, if you believe the bible is flawed...why does it matter if people use it as a sole source of authority or if people take it literally or not...its flawed...see my point?

 

[Targaryen]

1. The Bible is not inerrant, as it was written by humans. Divinely inspired, yes, but that does not mean dictated verbatim. Most were interpretations of dreams/visions, and those were subject to cultural influences of the time.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean inerrancy.

2. If you are not fluent in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek, then you are not getting 100% accuracy from an English translation. In many cases, the translations are "best guess." Idioms and the time period culture are missing from your understanding. Translations are subject to revisions.

Kind of established in point number one, don't see why it requires 2 points.

3. Some modern Christian "beliefs" have a tendency to be traditional (not necessarily biblical) and influenced by fictional works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost. Other cultures most definitely influenced early Judaism and Christianity, ancient Babylon and Egypt especially. People were nomadic and their stories traveled and grew over time. The Romans did the same thing.

And we view the Scriptures now through our own cultural lenses, which has been in part molded from past cultures. Irrelevant argument in Deism.

4. God is omnipotent, the supreme being, and the creator of all. Satan is the title, not name, of a being created by God to serve as God's appointed adversary. His role is to test us to see if we will hold true to our faith, or succumb to temptation. He is subject to God's divine authority. Nothing happens without God's permission, outside of human free will.

Generally held view in orthodox Christianity. How is this Deist exactly?

5. I do not blame bad things on a devil, demons, curses, or anything of the sort. See #4 above. If Satan was this evil arch enemy of God, then God could simply uncreate him, if He so desired. Who are we to restrict what God can and can't do?

Again, repeating of points.

6. I do not take the entire Bible literally. It uses metaphors, allegory, parables, etc. In many cases, it was ancient man trying to explain something they did not understand.

Literalism is more of a product of radical evangelical protestantism then it is a mainstream orthodox view. Again, how is this explictly Deist?

7. Religious institutions probably agree with many of my points, but they refuse to change what they have preached for so long. Better to keep up appearances verses having to say "we were wrong," and risk losing tithe paying church members who found out they have been lied to, or at least misled.

Which institutions are these exactly?

The non-religious stuff...

8. I believe in life elsewhere in the universe. There are billions of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. It is one of billions of galaxies in the universe. The odds that we are alone are just astronomically small. Ancient man, who write the Bible, knew nothing of the cosmos, and had no way of peering into space (much less exploring it).

Theistic evolution and the theory of the Big Bang is not ruled out by orthodox christianity, it's only literalist radical evangelical protestants that hold to the views of YEC and thus negate scientific realities.

9. Humanity is inherently evil. Lying, cheating, stealing, bullying and killing are far easier than being righteous, honest, forgiving and compassionate.

How is this Deist? This is an orthodox Christian view for millenia. The concept of Original Sin is entirely about that.

10. Religions are a collection of beliefs based on theories and stories, that can't be proven one way or another. Some people take their religion to the extreme. Many people fail to follow the simplest of commandments, such as "judge not, least you be judged." I view world religions as being a part of one tree, that just sprouted several branches.

Probably the most Deist statement of them all, but not really a view seperate from christianity these days. Liberal Christians tend to have a "universalist" approach to other faiths.



So these 10 points leads me to say you aren't a Deist but a more confused Christian or trying to be Christian that has yet to find a home somewhere where you can find solace with your beliefs.

Deism and Christianity are really incompatible concepts to link together.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Deism and Christianity are really incompatible concepts to link together.

I have already explained how I am a Christian Deist. You can't wiki it to find out what it means. Deism is an umbrella term, and is not a specific religion or denomination. It is a philosophy.

However, in an effort to appease the masses, to be a Christian means what? That you believe in Jesus Christ as the messiah, accept Him as your savior and follow His teachings. Everything else is just denomination specific dogma.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

My point is, if you believe the bible is flawed...why does it matter if people use it as a sole source of authority or if people take it literally or not...its flawed...see my point?

To me it does not matter.

I respect other people's choices and religions/denominations. If they choose to believe the Bible is inerrant and 100% literal, so be it. I have issues with that line of thought and I will talk about that subject, but it is not up to me to dictate what is true or not.

We all read the "same" Bible (minus translation and copyright changes) yet there are 100s of denominations. Hmmm...