CATHOLICS ONLY: "You Can't Pray to Mary, shes dead," how do I respond to this statement from a pastor?

[joymercy]

I met a pastor on the street who was introducing himself and inviting me to his church. I explained I was Catholic and was outside praying the rosary. This led to a discussion about my Catholics beliefs, the rosary and Mary.

He simply said that you can't pray to Mary, shes dead.

I tried to respond, but could not as he suddenly had to leave and tend to his little kids playing outside.

So I came home and thought that I would ask you what you would say in such a circumstance, as a non denominational pastor inviting you to his new church, right there on the street?

Would you have been able to summon up a proper response, and say it in love?

Dead people apparently are in heaven where they cannot hear us.

This cant be true, but how to argue that they CAN hear us and that its not wrong to pray to Mary and the Saints?

 

[HTacianas]

I met a pastor on the street who was introducing himself and inviting me to his church. I explained I was Catholic and was outside praying the rosary. This led to a discussion about my Catholics beliefs, the rosary and Mary.

He simply said that you can't pray to Mary, shes dead.

I tried to respond, but could not as he suddenly had to leave and tend to his little kids playing outside.

So I came home and thought that I would ask you what you would say in such a circumstance, as a non denominational pastor inviting you to his new church, right there on the street?

Would you have been able to summon up a proper response, and say it in love?

The righteous dead are before the throne of God:

Rev 7:15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

 

[joymercy]

Yes, they can proclaim before Him as they are all together in heaven, but what of us here on Earth? How do the righteous dead hear us?

So many protestants have told me that "Mary is dead and in heaven and the dead are indeed in heaven, and that is a place where they are now gone and away from us and can't hear us."

I don't know how to convince them otherwise.

 

[AlexB23]

Yes, they can proclaim before Him as they are all together in heaven, but what of us here on Earth? How do the righteous dead hear us?

So many protestants have told me that Mary is dead and in heaven and the dead are indeed in heaven, and that is a place where they are now gone and away from us and cant hear us.

Well, Jesus is in heaven, so we can talk to Jesus. Shouldn't that be the same, if we wanted Mary to intercede for us?

Disclaimer: I do not pray the rosary cos of my ADHD (too repetitive), so I pray directly through Jesus instead as it is nicer that way for how I was created, but for those who can pray the Rosary, go right ahead.

 

[prodromos]

The Church is the body of Christ. Christ has only one body. Those who die in Christ are still as much in the body of Christ as those who are still living. There is no separation of the living and the dead in Christ, indeed all are alive in Christ for God is the God of the living, not the dead.
Many saints while still alive have been witness to visitations from Mary and many other Saints who, according to the pastor you met, are dead and cannot hear us. Protestants like the pastor you met are living "Christianity Lite" and have no idea of the fullness of the faith.
There are innumerable miracles which have occurred through the intercessions of the Mother of God throughout the history of the Church. They would not have occurred if Mary could not hear us.

 

[fide]

Well, Jesus is in heaven, so we can talk to Jesus. Shouldn't that be the same, if we wanted Mary to intercede for us?

Disclaimer: I do not pray the rosary cos of my ADHD (too repetitive), so I pray directly through Jesus instead as it is nicer that way for how I was created, but for those who can pray the Rosary, go right ahead.

concerning your disclaimer: If "too repetitive" is the problem - it's not a problem if the Rosary is prayed and not merely repeated. That is, if each word, phrase, sentence in each prayer in the Rosary (including the beginning Sign of the Cross and "In the Name of....") is prayed intentionally, conscious of every part of it as you are praying each word of it, and if you are consciously meaning every part of it as you are praying it, then 1) you are praying as St. Teresa of Avila taught prayer, and 2) each "repeated" prayer is each in itself prayed, meant, believed. This simple advice on how to pray before the Divine Majesty can radically change - for the better - one's life of prayer.

Some recite the Rosary as if the faster they can say the words, the better the Lord likes it. If you begin to really intentionally pray the precious formula prayers of the Church, sadly, you will begin to find it hard - painful - difficult - to pray along with groups of people who are all reciting at 60 mph.

Jesus said:
Mt 6:7 "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

St. Teresa said: (Interior Castle Ch 1, 9). As far as I can understand, the gate by which to enter this castle is prayer and meditation. I do not allude more to mental than to vocal prayer, for if it is prayer at all, the mind must take part in it. If a person neither considers to Whom he is addressing himself, what he asks, nor what he is who ventures to speak to God, although his lips may utter many words, I do not call it prayer. Sometimes, indeed, one may pray devoutly without making all these considerations through having practised them at other times. The custom of speaking to God Almighty as freely as with a slave--caring nothing whether the words are suitable or not, but simply saying the first thing that comes to mind from being learnt by rote by frequent repetition--cannot be called prayer: God grant that no Christian may address Him in this manner. I trust His Majesty will prevent any of you, sisters, from doing so. Our habit in this Order of conversing about spiritual matters is a good preservative against such evil ways.

 

[AlexB23]

concerning your disclaimer: If "too repetitive" is the problem - it's not a problem if the Rosary is prayed and not merely repeated. That is, if each word, phrase, sentence in each prayer in the Rosary (including the beginning Sign of the Cross and "In the Name of....") is prayed intentionally, conscious of every part of it as you are praying each word of it, and if you are consciously meaning every part of it as you are praying it, then 1) you are praying as St. Teresa of Avila taught prayer, and 2) each "repeated" prayer is each in itself prayed, meant, believed. This simple advice on how to pray before the Divine Majesty can radically change - for the better - one's life of prayer.

Some recite the Rosary as if the faster they can say the words, the better the Lord likes it. If you begin to really intentionally pray the precious formula prayers of the Church, sadly, you will begin to find it hard - painful - difficult - to pray along with groups of people who are all reciting at 60 mph.

Jesus said:
Mt 6:7 "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

St. Teresa said: (Interior Castle Ch 1, 9). As far as I can understand, the gate by which to enter this castle is prayer and meditation. I do not allude more to mental than to vocal prayer, for if it is prayer at all, the mind must take part in it. If a person neither considers to Whom he is addressing himself, what he asks, nor what he is who ventures to speak to God, although his lips may utter many words, I do not call it prayer. Sometimes, indeed, one may pray devoutly without making all these considerations through having practised them at other times. The custom of speaking to God Almighty as freely as with a slave--caring nothing whether the words are suitable or not, but simply saying the first thing that comes to mind from being learnt by rote by frequent repetition--cannot be called prayer: God grant that no Christian may address Him in this manner. I trust His Majesty will prevent any of you, sisters, from doing so. Our habit in this Order of conversing about spiritual matters is a good preservative against such evil ways.

Ok. Thanks for the tip, even though I probably will not do this.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Personally ?

I'd suggest self procreation and stop acknowledging this guy's existence.

He doesn't get it.

He doesn't want to get it

Any attempt to explain it to him is doomed to failure and a waste of what little time I have left on this spinning rock.

I don't have to prove to him whether my faith is correct or not.

 

[RileyG]

Personally ?

I'd suggest self procreation and stop acknowledging this guy's existence.

He doesn't get it.

He doesn't want to get it

Any attempt to explain it to him is doomed to failure and a waste of what little time I have left on this spinning rock.

I don't have to prove to him whether my faith is correct or not.

Amen.

 

[RileyG]

Mary is not dead, she is alive in heaven and can pray for us. Just like how you ask another Christian to pray for you. There’s nothing heretical about it.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

concerning your disclaimer: If "too repetitive" is the problem - it's not a problem if the Rosary is prayed and not merely repeated. That is, if each word, phrase, sentence in each prayer in the Rosary (including the beginning Sign of the Cross and "In the Name of....") is prayed intentionally, conscious of every part of it as you are praying each word of it, and if you are consciously meaning every part of it as you are praying it, then 1) you are praying as St. Teresa of Avila taught prayer, and 2) each "repeated" prayer is each in itself prayed, meant, believed. This simple advice on how to pray before the Divine Majesty can radically change - for the better - one's life of prayer.

Some recite the Rosary as if the faster they can say the words, the better the Lord likes it. If you begin to really intentionally pray the precious formula prayers of the Church, sadly, you will begin to find it hard - painful - difficult - to pray along with groups of people who are all reciting at 60 mph.

Jesus said:
Mt 6:7 "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

St. Teresa said: (Interior Castle Ch 1, 9). As far as I can understand, the gate by which to enter this castle is prayer and meditation. I do not allude more to mental than to vocal prayer, for if it is prayer at all, the mind must take part in it. If a person neither considers to Whom he is addressing himself, what he asks, nor what he is who ventures to speak to God, although his lips may utter many words, I do not call it prayer. Sometimes, indeed, one may pray devoutly without making all these considerations through having practised them at other times. The custom of speaking to God Almighty as freely as with a slave--caring nothing whether the words are suitable or not, but simply saying the first thing that comes to mind from being learnt by rote by frequent repetition--cannot be called prayer: God grant that no Christian may address Him in this manner. I trust His Majesty will prevent any of you, sisters, from doing so. Our habit in this Order of conversing about spiritual matters is a good preservative against such evil ways.

See Fide is cool and stuff but here I disagree a little bit:

If you get into a rhythm, it's like riding a wave, almost like Eastern religious chanting. Repeated poetic prose has a way of taking you out of yourself and putting you in a mystical state. It's an altered state. It's kind of cool.

Like a runner high (I wouldn't know about it, my body wasn't built for running - but I've heard tell)

PS: I know, I know, I know, Eastern mysticism is frowned on in Western Christianity. Well, tuff nuggies. It's a thing and it has religious foundation.

 

[Chrystal-J]

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32

 

[Solo81]

I met a pastor on the street who was introducing himself and inviting me to his church. I explained I was Catholic and was outside praying the rosary. This led to a discussion about my Catholics beliefs, the rosary and Mary.

He simply said that you can't pray to Mary, shes dead.

I tried to respond, but could not as he suddenly had to leave and tend to his little kids playing outside.

So I came home and thought that I would ask you what you would say in such a circumstance, as a non denominational pastor inviting you to his new church, right there on the street?

Would you have been able to summon up a proper response, and say it in love?

Dead people apparently are in heaven where they cannot hear us.

This cant be true, but how to argue that they CAN hear us and that its not wrong to pray to Mary and the Saints?

Hi Joymercy,
In Matthew 22:31 it says “...have you never reflected on what God said to you: I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.”

In John 14:2 Jesus says "...I go to prepare a place for you.After I have gone and prepared a place for you, I shall come again and take you to me, so that where I am, you also may be."

On the Mountain, at the Transfiguration, 3 of the Apostles witnessed Moses and Elijah appearing and talking with Jesus. Mt 17: 1-8

On the cross, Jesus said to the man that asked to be remembered:
Lk 23:43 Jesus replied "Truly, you will be with me today in Paradise".

So, in the Scriptures, God says all people are alive to him.
Jesus says he's preparing a place for us and he'll come for us so that we will be with him.
Jesus told the thief that he'd be with Jesus in Paradise.
Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus. The Apostles audibly heard them conversing; the long 'dead' Moses + Elijah talking with Jesus on top of a mountain, witnessed by 3 people. Peter even joined in the conversation.

There's loads of examples in the NT. How people who devour scripture don't see these things is beyond me.

Another one is from 1Jn 3:2
"Beloved, we are God's children and what we shall be has not yet been shown. Yet when he appears in his glory, we know that we shall be like him, for then we shall see him as he is."
All those in Heaven are now like Him.

Hope i made sense.

 

[fide]

See Fide is cool and stuff but here I disagree a little bit:

If you get into a rhythm, it's like riding a wave, almost like Eastern religious chanting. Repeated poetic prose has a way of taking you out of yourself and putting you in a mystical state. It's an altered state. It's kind of cool.

Like a runner high (I wouldn't know about it, my body wasn't built for running - but I've heard tell)

PS: I know, I know, I know, Eastern mysticism is frowned on in Western Christianity. Well, tuff nuggies. It's a thing and it has religious foundation.

Non-Christian Eastern prayer is about mind-emptying, and has some similarity to self-hypnosis; Christian prayer is entered by mind-filling with God and the things of God. Mind-emptying can be spiritually very dangerous, indeed an open-door invitation to the demonic:

Mt 12:43 "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none.
Mt 12:44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
Mt 12:45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation."

Christian mystical prayer is not in search of an altered state, but communion with God, most often the Holy Spirit. To be "altered" in itself in not a worthy ambition; to find communion with God is in fact our vocation, our purpose, the purpose for which God made us.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I met a pastor on the street who was introducing himself and inviting me to his church. I explained I was Catholic and was outside praying the rosary. This led to a discussion about my Catholics beliefs, the rosary and Mary.

He simply said that you can't pray to Mary, shes dead.

I tried to respond, but could not as he suddenly had to leave and tend to his little kids playing outside.

So I came home and thought that I would ask you what you would say in such a circumstance, as a non denominational pastor inviting you to his new church, right there on the street?

Would you have been able to summon up a proper response, and say it in love?

Dead people apparently are in heaven where they cannot hear us.

This cant be true, but how to argue that they CAN hear us and that its not wrong to pray to Mary and the Saints?

Well, I wonder what he thinks of Simon's prophecy that her heart will be pierced with a sword and she shall read the hearts of many.

No where does scripture state she did that.
I know a prophecy is fast forward to come.

She is well able to read our hearts.
She was prophesied to do so and nobody in Heaven is dead.

The cloud of witnesses shall judge the world. [nations]

This pastor cherry picks.
I used to enjoy debates, but they are useless unless you know scriptures backwards and forwards that counter their ignorance.
So it is often fruitless. On that note; even knowing them they need time alone to ponder.
I've had some wild reactions and stunned looks.

 

[fide]

I met a pastor on the street who was introducing himself and inviting me to his church. I explained I was Catholic and was outside praying the rosary. This led to a discussion about my Catholics beliefs, the rosary and Mary.

He simply said that you can't pray to Mary, shes dead.

I tried to respond, but could not as he suddenly had to leave and tend to his little kids playing outside.

So I came home and thought that I would ask you what you would say in such a circumstance, as a non denominational pastor inviting you to his new church, right there on the street?

Would you have been able to summon up a proper response, and say it in love?

Dead people apparently are in heaven where they cannot hear us.

This cant be true, but how to argue that they CAN hear us and that its not wrong to pray to Mary and the Saints?

Hello joymercy,
I've responded to several members on this thread, but not yet to your OP! That's because it took me this long to decide how to respond. The question is a good one, a very important one. God wants witnesses! But knowing how best to witness, in particular situations, that is "complicated." Since this situation for you involved a pastor, I assume protestant, I would most likely have said very little, maybe only smiling and saying, "Oh but Mary is not dead; she's alive in Christ." Protestant pastors would probably be sola-scriptura, and I would not recommend trying to go verse-against-verse debating with him. Most, it seems, are so invested in "Bible-alone!" that they cannot and will not hear anything else (that S.S. doctrine has produced its own hermeneutic which is firmly self-defensive). If they ever hear otherwise, it will be because God is telling them in their hearts. Pray for them.

Our Catholic Faith is a supernatural gift , conveyed in grace, which is supernatural and divine: "Grace is a participation in the life of God." (CCC 1997). Hence, all we can do is try to help prepare the way in the heart of an unbeliever, for something he does not have but can receive, if he will, from God.

CCC 1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature. [Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9]

Scripture also confirms this absolute dependence on God - not on any work of man - to impart into another, or into oneself, salvation and life in Christ:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What are the "good works" that we can and ought to and indeed must do? That, we need to hear, and from God.

 

[WarriorAngel]

In keeping with the above I spoke on, consider every gift, says Paul, is for the entire Body of Christ. [His people]

What we see in scriptures, which St John said if they wrote everything it would fill the world... is that her gift would have been mentioned no doubt, alongside her Son.
No where does it state Mary doing anything. She could, a gift given to her, but she was written to have 'kept it to herself.'

Simon said: [Luke 2]
34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.


Simon is revealing POST Resurrection. His prophecy was not about earthly living. This was about the AFTER LIFE in Heaven and the opening of Heaven to humanity.
By His fall, the Resurrection of many - [humans] would now be possible.

By His death, all may rise.

He did not state Mary reading people's thoughts willy nilly on earth for she too would be with her Son, again, bringing the world to her Son.
Just as she brought her Son to the world by cooperating with her LIFE long Graces.

ALSO - we take for granted that GRACE was not a concept in those times, a gift reserved for the Ascension of Jesus Who would send His Advocate.
MARY already had the Advocate.

I could literally go on and on but
www.newadvent.org/fathers would be a great place to read the historical writings on MARY.

Also, too, the Catacombs [first centuries of Christendom applied prayer petitions over tombs to Our Lady.
So we know the earliest Church indeed prayed to her.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Second thing - When speaking to Elizabeth she said 'I shall be called BLESSED in every generation.'

People use the wrong application of this.
For Blessed means to be venerated, venerable.

She was filled with grace. A grace that existed and would always exist.
CONSIDER St Gabriel's greeting to HER.
Kecharitomene [Koine Greek]

In this regard, biblical scholars conclude that Mary, addressed as Kecharitomene, signifies that she was not simply blessed with grace, but she was filled with grace, that is, blessed with a permanent state incompatible with sin; and would remain free from all sin by God’s prevenient grace (saved from sin before the fact cf Eph 1:3-6).

Go back to Genesis...
SHE will have enmity with the serpent.
Enmity is complete opposition.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Jesus speaks of having NO LIFE IN YOU UNLESS you EAT OF HIS FLESH.

1) Besides Grace [which is life we are given to have eternal LIFE]
2) Life again refers to eternal LIFE.

Earth is not a destination for any, it is the journey to LIFE EVERLASTING.

LIFE EVERLASTING.
Mary is NOT dead, that is a reserved judgment for those without life everlasting in Heaven but eternal reproach.
The second death is hell.

1 100%	For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting. [Tobias (Tobit) 12:9]
2 100%	They that explain me shall have life everlasting. [Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 24:31]
3 100%	And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always. [Daniel 12:2]
4 100%	And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [Matthew 19:16]
5 100%	And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. [Matthew 19:29]
6 100%	And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. [Matthew 25:46]
7 100%	And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire: [Mark 9:44]
8 100%	And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man running up and kneeling before him, asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting? [Mark 10:17]
9 100%	Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting. [Mark 10:30]
10 100%	Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. [Luke 18:30]

 

[WarriorAngel]

Without being quarrelsome, avoid confrontation, but use prayer instead.

And if you are called upon, remember what you have learned in the forum. Will you be heard?
Pray you are heard.
If you are not, do not be discouraged.

How I debate is ask what the verses mean.
What Kecharitomene means.

This ought to make them wonder.

What I know is small doses at irregular intervals is all one may do.
Adding prayer.