Catholic vs. Orthodox

[DJ B.K.]

What's the difference between the catholic and orthodox religions. They both seem similar. Why are you people on this board catholic but not orthodox?

 

[Metanoia02]

What's the difference between the catholic and orthodox religions. They both seem similar. Why are you people on this board catholic but not orthodox?

I will be interested in the response!
I know someone will do a better job then me explaining this in an unbiased manner.

Peace

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

One of the most tragic divisions within Christianity is the one between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches. Both have valid holy orders and apostolic succession through the episcopacy, both celebrate the same sacraments, both believe almost exactly the same theology, and both proclaim the same faith in Christ. So, why the division? What caused the division? And what can be done to bring about a reconciliation? Here's an article from Catholic Answers that might help.

Emperor vs. Patriarch

To understand the history of Eastern Orthodoxy, one must understand how its character was shaped by the ever-present conflict between church and state in the eastern part of the Roman Empire.

After the western Roman Empire collapsed in A.D. 476, the eastern half continued under the title of the Byzantine Empire and was headquartered in Constantinople. The patriarch of that city had jurisdiction over the patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, and served under the emperor, who ruled those lands with military might. In the East, the emperor wielded tremendous influence in church affairs. Some emperors even claimed to be equal in authority to the twelve apostles, and as such claimed to have the power to appoint the patriarch of Constantinople. Although the two offices were legally autonomous, in practice the patriarch served at the emperor’s pleasure. Many patriarchs of Constantinople were good and holy bishops who ruled well and resisted imperial encroachments on church matters, but it is difficult to withstand the designs of power-hungry or meddlesome emperors with armed soldiers at their disposal.

The patriarch often attempted to bolster his position in the universal Church to give himself more leverage in dealing with the emperor, and this usually brought him into conflict with Rome.

During the years of conflict between East and West, the Roman pontiff remained firm, defending the Catholic faith against heresies and unruly or immoral secular powers, especially the Byzantine emperor. The first conflict came when Emperor Constantius appointed an Arian heretic as patriarch. Pope Julian excommunicated the patriarch in 343, and Constantinople remained in schism until John Chrysostom assumed the patriarchate in 398.

Ironically, in the Church’s eighth-century struggle against the Iconoclastic heresy (which sought to eliminate all sacred images), it was the pope and the Western bishops mainly who fought for the Catholic practice of venerating icons, which is still very much a part of Orthodox liturgy and spirituality. The patriarch of Constantinople sided with the heretical, iconoclastic emperors.

1054 and All That

The Norman conquest of southern Italy helped touch off the Great Schism between Eastern and Western Christendom. When the Catholic Normans took over the Byzantine-Rite Greek colonies in southern Italy, they compelled the Greek communities there to adopt the Latin-Rite custom of using unleavened bread for the Eucharist. This caused great aggravation among the Greek Catholics because it went against their ancient custom of using leavened bread.

In response, Patriarch Cerularius ordered all of the Latin-Rite communities in Constantinople to conform to the Eastern practice of using leavened bread. You can imagine the uproar that ensued. The Latins refused, so the patriarch closed their churches and sent a hostile letter to Pope Leo IX.

What followed next was a tragedy of errors. In an attempt to quell the disturbance, the pope sent a three-man delegation, led by Cardinal Humbert, to visit Patriarch Cerularius, but matters worsened. The legates presented the patriarch with the pope’s reply to his charges. Both sides managed to infuriate each other over diplomatic courtesies, and when the smoke cleared, a serious rift had developed. This was not, however, the actual break between the two communions. It’s a popular myth that the schism dates to the year 1054 and that the pope and the patriarch excommunicated each other at that time, but they did not.

Orthodox bishop Kallistos Ware (formerly Timothy Ware) writes, "The choice of Cardinal Humbert was unfortunate, for both he and Cerularius were men of stiff and intransigent temper. . . . After [an initial, unfriendly encounter] the patriarch refused to have further dealings with the legates. Eventually Humbert lost patience, and laid a bull of excommunication against Cerularius on the altar of the Church of the Holy Wisdom. . . . Cerularius and his synod retaliated by anathematizing Humbert (but not the Roman Church as such)" (The Orthodox Church, 67).

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says, "The consummation of the schism is generally dated from the year 1054, when this unfortunate sequence of events took place. This conclusion, however, is not correct, because in the bull composed by Humbert, only Patriarch Cerularius was excommunicated. The validity of the bull is questioned because Pope Leo IX was already dead at that time. On the other side, the Byzantine synod excommunicated only the legates and abstained from any attack on the pope or the Latin Church."

There was no single event that marked the schism, but rather a sliding into and out of schism during a period of several centuries, punctuated with temporary reconciliations. The East’s final break with Rome did not come until the 1450s.


Attempts at Reconciliation

"Even after 1054 friendly relations between East and West continued. The two parts of Christendom were not yet conscious of a great gulf of separation between them. . . . The dispute remained something of which ordinary Christians in East and West were largely unaware" (Ware, 67).

This changed when the Byzantine Empire collapsed suddenly in 1453. A soldier forgot to lock one of the gates of the fortified city of Constantinople, and the Turks sacked the city. With the Turks in control of the capital city, the rest of the empire crumbled quickly. Under pressure from Muslims, most of the Eastern churches repudiated their union with Rome, and this is the split that persists to this day. The current Eastern Orthodox communion dates from the 1450s, making it a mere six decades older than the Protestant Reformation.


Eastern Fragmentation

Two subsequent events, one external, the other internal, reduced the patriarch of Constantinople’s status to nearly that of a figurehead. The sword of Islam gave military protection to the center of the Eastern Orthodox world, but at a high price. The Muslim sultan sold the office of patriarch to the highest bidder and changed the occupants often to keep the money rolling in. From 1453 to 1923, the Turkish sultans deposed 105 out of the 159 patriarchs. Six were murdered, and only 21 died of natural causes while in office.

Another blow that weakened the patriarch’s authority came from Russia. Ivan the Great assumed the title of "Czar" (Russian for "Caesar"). Moscow was then called the "third Rome," and the Czar tried to assume the role of protector for Eastern Christianity.

With the collapse of the patriarchal system, the Eastern church lost its center and fragmented along national lines. Russia claimed independence from the patriarch of Constantinople in 1589, the first nation to do this. Other ethnic and regional splintering quickly followed, and today there are eleven independent Orthodox churches. The Russian Orthodox church dominates contemporary Eastern Orthodoxy, representing seven-eighths of the total number of Orthodox Christians.


The Filioque Problem

One theological disagreement has to do with the Latin compound word filioque ("and the Son") which was added to the Nicene Creed by Spanish Catholic bishops around the end of the sixth century. With this addition, the creed says that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son." Without the addition, it says the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

Eastern Orthodox have traditionally challenged this, either saying that the doctrine is inaccurate or, for those who believe that it is accurate, that the pope had no authority to insert this word into the creed (though it was later affirmed by an ecumenical council).

Many today, both Orthodox and Catholics, believe this controversy was a tempest in a teapot. The doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as the Father is intimated in Scripture and present in the earliest Church Fathers. Controversy over it only arose again after the Eastern churches repudiated their union with Rome under pressure from the Muslims.

Eastern Orthodox often refer to the Holy Spirit proceeding from "the Father through the Son," which can be equivalent to the Catholic formula "from the Father and the Son." Since everything the Son has is from the Father, if the Spirit proceeds from the Son, then the Son can only be spoken of as one through whom the Spirit received what he has from the Father, the ultimate principle of the Godhead. Because the formulas are equivalent, the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes: "This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed" (CCC 248).

Today there is every hope that the equivalence of the two formulas can be formally recognized by all parties and that the filioque controversy can be resolved.


The Councils

A more substantive disagreement between Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox concerns the role of the pope and the ecumenical councils in the Church. Both sides agree that ecumenical councils have the ability to infallibly define doctrines, but a question arises concerning which councils are ecumenical.

The Eastern Orthodox communion bases its teachings on Scripture and "the seven ecumenical councils"—I Nicaea (325), I Constantinople (381), Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), II Constantinople (553), III Constantinople (680), and II Nicaea (787). Catholics recognize these as the first seven ecumenical councils, but not the only seven.

While Catholics recognize an ensuing series of ecumenical councils, leading up to Vatican II, which closed in 1965, the Eastern Orthodox say there have been no ecumenical councils since 787, and no teaching after II Nicaea is accepted as of universal authority.

One of the reasons the Eastern Orthodox do not claim to have had any ecumenical councils since II Nicaea is that they have been unable to agree on which councils are ecumenical. In Orthodox circles, the test for whether a council is ecumenical is whether it is "accepted by the church" as such. But that test is unworkable: Any disputants who are unhappy with a council’s result can point to their own disagreement with it as evidence that the church has not accepted it as ecumenical, and it therefore has no authority.


The Pope’s Authority

Since the Eastern schism began, the Orthodox have generally claimed that the pope has only a primacy of honor among the bishops of the world, not a primacy of authority. But the concept of a primacy of honor without a corresponding authority cannot be derived from the Bible. At every juncture where Jesus speaks of Peter’s relation to the other apostles, he emphasizes Peter’s special mission to them and not simply his place of honor among them.

In Matthew 16:19, Jesus gives Peter "the keys to the kingdom" and the power to bind and loose. While the latter is later given to the other apostles (Matt. 18:18), the former is not. In Luke 22:28–32, Jesus assures the apostles that they all have authority, but then he singles out Peter, conferring upon him a special pastoral authority over the other disciples which he is to exercise by strengthening their faith (22:31–32).

In John 21:15–17, with only the other disciples present (cf. John 21:2), Jesus asks Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?"—in other words, is Peter more devoted to him than the other disciples? When Peter responds that he is, Jesus instructs him: "Feed my lambs" (22:15). Thus we see Jesus describing the other disciples, the only other people who are present, the ones whom Jesus refers to as "these," as part of the lambs that he instructs Peter to feed, giving him the role of pastor (shepherd) over them. Again, a reference to Peter having more than merely a primacy of honor with respect to the other apostles, but a primacy of pastoral discipline as well.


Ecumenical Prospects

While Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are separate for the moment, what unites us is still far greater than what divides us, and there are abundant reasons for optimism regarding reconciliation in the future. Over the last several decades, there has been a marked lessening of tensions and overcoming of long-standing hostilities.

In 1965, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople lifted mutual excommunications dating from the eleventh century, and in 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople concelebrated the Eucharist together. John Paul II, the first Slavic pope, has made the reconciliation of Eastern and Western Christendom a special theme of his pontificate, and he has released a large number of documents and addresses honoring the contributions of Eastern Christendom and seeking to promote unity between Catholics and Orthodox.

It is again becoming possible to envision a time when the two communions will be united and, by the power of the Holy Spirit, fulfill their duty in bringing about Christ’s solemn desire and command "that they may be one" (John 17:11).

 

[MariaRegina]

Thank goodness for the dialogues which are on-going between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church. Lately we see a lot of changes. The most profound is the increasing use of the Holy Icons in the Catholic Churches.

Re: Icon of the Theotokos

Whereas in the past, the Theotokos was depicted from models of beautiful women in Catholic art, Roman Catholics are now drawn to the beauty of Eastern Orthodox Icons of the Theotokos.

The Theotokos, the Blessed Mother of God, was depicted in three images done by St. Luke the Evangelist. One was written on her kitchen table. These venerable icons of The Virgin Mary are patterns for all the icons of her. No human model can compare with her beauty.

Mary, the Mother of God, is very much like her Son in appearance. When you see her, she has a family resemblance to her Son. She is truly created in His Image, as she gave birth to the Life.

Holy, Holy, Holy. Now I'm excited about going to Heaven.

This is why Catholics are venerating the Blessed Virgin in her Icons.

Incidentally, the west was given an icon of her -- Our Lady of Guadalupe.

 

[Spotty]

Very interesting, Jeff. Wonderful article - where did you get the information? I also thought that it was in 1054 that the E and W officially split....very interesting.

Anyway, you've kept me from going to work...shame on you. I have to go now.

-Spotty

 

[Philip]

Overall, I would say that Jeffrey did a good job. I would like to add a few comments.

After the western Roman Empire collapsed in A.D. 476, the eastern half continued under the title of the Byzantine Empire and was headquartered in Constantinople. The patriarch of that city had jurisdiction over the patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem,

The Patriarch held a position of honor over the other jurisdictions.

Ironically, in the Church’s eighth-century struggle against the Iconoclastic heresy (which sought to eliminate all sacred images), it was the pope and the Western bishops mainly who fought for the Catholic practice of venerating icons, which is still very much a part of Orthodox liturgy and spirituality. The patriarch of Constantinople sided with the heretical, iconoclastic emperors.

This is rather slanted. In particular, it was St John of Damascus who led the defense of icons.

This changed when the Byzantine Empire collapsed suddenly in 1453. A soldier forgot to lock one of the gates of the fortified city of Constantinople, and the Turks sacked the city. With the Turks in control of the capital city, the rest of the empire crumbled quickly. Under pressure from Muslims, most of the Eastern churches repudiated their union with Rome, and this is the split that persists to this day. The current Eastern Orthodox communion dates from the 1450s, making it a mere six decades older than the Protestant Reformation.

This is historically wrong on many points. The Byzantine Empire did not collapse suddenly. When the Turks sacked Constantinople, most of the Empire’s lands were already under Turkish control. The statement that the Orthodox communion dates from the 1450’s and the comparison of Orthodoxy to the Protestant Reformation is dishonest.

sequent events, one external, the other internal, reduced the patriarch of Constantinople’s status to nearly that of a figurehead. The sword of Islam gave military protection to the center of the Eastern Orthodox world, but at a high price. The Muslim sultan sold the office of patriarch to the highest bidder and changed the occupants often to keep the money rolling in. From 1453 to 1923, the Turkish sultans deposed 105 out of the 159 patriarchs. Six were murdered, and only 21 died of natural causes while in office.

This description is hardly fair without mentioning that exactly the same happened in Catholic North Africa. In Europe, similar events also occurred, even without Muslim influence.

Another blow that weakened the patriarch’s authority came from Russia. Ivan the Great assumed the title of "Czar" (Russian for "Caesar"). Moscow was then called the "third Rome," and the Czar tried to assume the role of protector for Eastern Christianity.

This statement clearly shows an ignorance of Orthodoxy. The EP’s position is one of honor, not authority. The success of the Church in Russia in no way weakens the EP.

With the collapse of the patriarchal system, the Eastern church lost its center and fragmented along national lines. Russia claimed independence from the patriarch of Constantinople in 1589, the first nation to do this. Other ethnic and regional splintering quickly followed, and today there are eleven independent Orthodox churches. The Russian Orthodox church dominates contemporary Eastern Orthodoxy, representing seven-eighths of the total number of Orthodox Christians.

Wow. This is just horrible. The “patriarchal system” did not “collapse”. It is still strong and thriving today. The autocephalous Churches are not splintered or separated. They are separate Patriarchal jurisdictions. They represent different cultural groups, just as the Patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem do. There is no difference in theology, only minor cultural differences.

Eastern Orthodox have traditionally challenged this, either saying that the doctrine is inaccurate or, for those who believe that it is accurate, that the pope had no authority to insert this word into the creed (though it was later affirmed by an ecumenical council).

Affirmed by an Ecumenical Council? Which one? For that matter, how did the earlier council get it wrong?

Many today, both Orthodox and Catholics, believe this controversy was a tempest in a teapot. The doctrine that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as the Father is intimated in Scripture and present in the earliest Church Fathers. Controversy over it only arose again after the Eastern churches repudiated their union with Rome under pressure from the Muslims.

I disagree.

A more substantive disagreement between Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox concerns the role of the pope and the ecumenical councils in the Church. Both sides agree that ecumenical councils have the ability to infallibly define doctrines, but a question arises concerning which councils are ecumenical.

Not exactly. A council does not define doctrines. It confirms the doctrines that have been taught.

One of the reasons the Eastern Orthodox do not claim to have had any ecumenical councils since II Nicaea is that they have been unable to agree on which councils are ecumenical. In Orthodox circles, the test for whether a council is ecumenical is whether it is "accepted by the church" as such. But that test is unworkable: Any disputants who are unhappy with a council’s result can point to their own disagreement with it as evidence that the church has not accepted it as ecumenical, and it therefore has no authority.

Nope. We have had no Ecumenical Councils since then because we have not had the need for them. There has been no dispute to necessitate one.

Since the Eastern schism began, the Orthodox have generally claimed that the pope has only a primacy of honor among the bishops of the world, not a primacy of authority.

Um, this was the opinion of the East long before 1054.

But the concept of a primacy of honor without a corresponding authority cannot be derived from the Bible. At every juncture where Jesus speaks of Peter’s relation to the other apostles, he emphasizes Peter’s special mission to them and not simply his place of honor among them.

I disagree, but will not dispute it in OBOB.

 

[MariaRegina]

Jeffrey Lloyd!

Shame on you for posting such a biased account of history. Catholic Answers is a lay-run evangelical group that is hampering the union of the two Churches by their animosity and misinformation.

Maybe this whole thread should be stopped before it turns into more lies.

 

[mtown]

Let's add the Orthodox perspective between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Church

Please read:

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/milton1_index.html
(read all the links)

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/roman_church.htm

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7053.asp

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8523.asp

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8131.asp

If people would like to discuss more dogmatic issues between Orthodox and the Church or Roman...

well.....

more to come!

 

[geocajun]

That Catholic Answers article was well written and accurate.
Thanks for posting it Jeffery!

for more historitcal data, I suggest reading the book Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church: A 2,000-Year History

 

[geocajun]

Jeffrey Lloyd!

Shame on you for posting such a biased account of history. Catholic Answers is a lay-run evangelical group that is hampering the union of the two Churches by their animosity and misinformation.

right and your church websites are helping right? by calling the Pope a unnecessary stumbling block to jesus?
www.oca.org makes very bad statements about the Catholic church many times over. My feelings about the EOC are much worse after having read EOC opinion of Catholics from you and that site.

 

[geocajun]

Let's add the Orthodox perspective between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Church

I dont remember anyone asking for the eastern orthodox perspective on Catholic doctrine.
you are prostelizing.

 

[Axion]

Everyone seems to be getting hyper-touchy here!

One can see now how schisms develop. I personally feel it is chiefly the remembrance of old quarrels that keeps the Catholic and Orthodox Churches apart. Deep doctrinal differences are few.

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Geocajun

Before you make any hasty generalizations, please copy specific passages where you feel the OCA is making untrue statements about the Roman Catholic Church. Also cite your references so that they can be verified. So far, I haven't seen anything offensive yet. The statements made by the OCA are true and very civil compared with the misinformation present in the Catholic Answers article, which Jeffrey recently posted.

BTW: Did Jeffrey get permission to publish their copyrighted material? Is he properly citing his references? I noticed no author listed, nor publication date.

I'll make a deal with you. If you find anything that is untrue, I will personally send an email to Father John, and knowing how he is truthful, he will change it. He's a honest Orthodox Catholic Priest. (However, I've got to have the specific site as to where those references are located.)

Needless to say, I have communicated with Catholic Answers previously and pointed out their mistakes, but they would not retract any of their errors. I called them on the phone, but could not get past their receptionist. I therefore give them little credence.

Prayerfully in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[CopticOrthodox]

This is the Catholic forum... if they say something wrong about us maybe we shoud correct them charitably rather than just making insults and broad comments, and other than that leave them to their discussion.

 

[geocajun]

This is the Catholic forum... if they say something wrong about us maybe we shoud correct them charitably rather than just making insults and broad comments, and other than that leave them to their discussion.

Thank you CopticOrthodox.

 

[geocajun]

Dear Geocajun

Before you make any hasty generalizations, please copy specific passages where you feel the OCA is making untrue statements about the Roman Catholic Church. Also cite your references so that they can be verified. So far, I haven't seen anything offensive yet. The statements made by the OCA are true and very civil compared with the misinformation present in the Catholic Answers article, which Jeffrey recently posted.

ok, here are a few which are hardly civil - and the Catholic Answers article is correct.
Also, the "Roman Catholic Church" is a misnomer. its the "Catholic Church" - I see you make this mistake alot, and so does the OCA website.

and Fr. John is not a "Catholic" Priest, and likely wouldn't appriciate your telling him he is. he is an Orthodox Christian Priest.

below are some quotes from your Church's website...

The papal claims to supremacy are of much later origin, and there are many who would argue that such claims have done far more damage to the unity of Christendom than anything else. [If one looks at the hundreds upon hundreds of Protestant groups that grew out of Roman Catholicism -- there is little parallel here within Orthodox Christianity -- one might also question the papacy as a point of unity.

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/q-and-a_old/pope-and-christian-unity.html

Concerning the Eucharist: Many Orthodox Christians do view the Roman Catholic Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ; others today would not subscribe to this. The answer is linked to whether one believes that Roman Catholicism is "with grace" or "devoid of grace."

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/q-and-a_old/validity-of-rc-orders.html
Can you imagine the Catholic Church ever publishing any doctrinal statement based on the opinion of what "one beleives" ? its like your Church states that if one beleives the Eucharist is valid, it is, and if not, its not. what a joke - and an insult.

there are more, but I have to get to work so these will have to do for now.

 

[Photini]

Hm.....sadly this is convincing me more and more that real reunion between Orthodox and Catholic churches is probably not going to happen. If anything, I think if a union is attempted, then there will come about more schisms on both sides.
It is this sort of thing that probably scandalizes those lost souls honestly searching for Truth, and keeps them from looking into either Catholic or Orthodox.

 

[Maximus]

I personally do not think it wise for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Catholics to engage in debates on this web site.

We have far too much in common and have suffered too much from our mutual schism over the years.

Besides, many of the people who visit this web site are confused and involved in religious sects that have preserved precious little of the Apostolic Faith. They need our help. They do not need to behold the spectacle of the oldest Christian churches straining at gnats while swallowing the camels of all that we together hold dear.

Lord have mercy.

Let's draw up a chair here for the Blessed Virgin. Will her children quarrel and fight with their Mom seated among them?

 

[Oblio]

What Maximus said !

While we argue amongst ourselves, there are heretics around these boards that attack those things we hold dear and in common.

 

[Reader Nilus]

deleted.
I had second thoughts about the post
Jeff the Finn