Calvinist Confusion

[OkieAllDay]

Calvinists oftentimes promote a view called compatibilism. Although they claim this ensures that our choices are free it is a nonsensical notion. I appreciate them not wanting to make God the author of sin or men into robots, but that is what it does. All things in Calvinism (including in the combatibilist view) are determined/ordained by God. Only a Calvinist would say that it is logically coherent that people are pre-programmed to act a certain way but still call their actions free. Free will and determinism are mutually exclusive terms.

 

[John Mullally]

Calvinists oftentimes promote a view called compatibilism. Although they claim this ensures that our choices are free it is a nonsensical notion. I appreciate them not wanting to make God the author of sin or men into robots, but that is what it does. All things in Calvinism (including in the combatibilist view) are determined/ordained by God. Only a Calvinist would say that it is logically coherent that people are pre-programmed to act a certain way but still call their actions free. Free will and determinism are mutually exclusive terms.

Compatibilism is a Calvinist doctrine which attempts to harmonize divine determinism and human free-will. Calvinists often use this term to claim that they, too, believe in free-will, that is, “compatibilistic free-will.” Unfortunately, though, it is a non-free, free-will and hence nothing more than camouflaged determinism.

Compatibilists teach that people will do what is “natural” for them, that is, whatever is consistent with their nature. However, what they often fail to disclose is that they also believe a person’s nature comes completely determined, meaning that it is subject to exhaustive, meticulous determinism. Hence, compatibilistic free-will is the antithesis of freedom. Genuine free-will must include autonomy of reason. Only then can a person’s choices be uniquely and independently their own.

Compatibilism is God being God, and then also God playing man by exhaustively decreeing every man’s nature, from which springs all thoughts and intentions. Even by the Compatibilist’s own admission, “Compatibilism is no less deterministic than hard determinism.” Within the compatibilist’s framework, there is no such thing as what the human really wants to do in a given situation, considered somehow apart from God’s desire in the matter (i.e., God’s desire as to what the human agent will desire). In the compatibilist scheme, human desire is wholly derived from and wholly bound to the divine desire. God’s decree encompasses everything, even the desires that underlie human choices.

This is a critical point because it undercuts the plausibility of the Compatibilist’s argument that desire can be considered the basis for human culpability. Ascribing culpability to humanity simply because they are ‘doing what they want to do,’ appears plausible only because it subtly evokes a sense of independence or ownership on the part of the human agent for his or her choices.

But once we recognize (as we must within the larger deterministic framework encompassing Compatibilism) that those very desires of the agent are equally part of the environment that God causally determines, then the line between environment and agent becomes blurred, if not completely lost. The human agent no longer can be seen as owning his own choices. For the desires determining those choices are in no significant sense independent of God’s decree.

For this reason, we feel human desire within the compatibilist framework forms an insufficient basis on which to establish the autonomy of human freedom and from this the legitimacy of human culpability for sin. Even John Calvin recognized this problem within the claims of his systematic:

John Calvin: “How it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author or approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance…. I daily so meditate on these mysteries of his judgments that curiosity to know anything more does not attract me.”​

As a disclaimer, philosophical Compatibilism should not be confused with the fact that Scripture shows God working compatibly with the intentions of others. For example, in Genesis 37:28 (as it relates to 50:20), God may have steered the Midianite traders nearby to Joseph’s brothers because He knew that utilizing them as an alternative to murdering their brother would be “compatible” with their intentions and interests, with which God would then facilitate Joseph’s rescue, apart from having to use more obvious, supernatural intervention. In other words, saying that two things are compatible is not to say that this makes philosophical Compatibilism true. That would be an equivocation fallacy. For instance, just because a husband and wife’s wills are compatible in accomplishing something doesn’t mean “Compatibilism” is true.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Compatibilism is a Calvinist doctrine which attempts to harmonize divine determinism and human free-will. Calvinists often use this term to claim that they, too, believe in free-will, that is, “compatibilistic free-will.” Unfortunately, though, it is a non-free, free-will and hence nothing more than camouflaged determinism.

Compatibilists teach that people will do what is “natural” for them, that is, whatever is consistent with their nature. However, what they often fail to disclose is that they also believe a person’s nature comes completely determined, meaning that it is subject to exhaustive, meticulous determinism. Hence, compatibilistic free-will is the antithesis of freedom. Genuine free-will must include autonomy of reason. Only then can a person’s choices be uniquely and independently their own.

Compatibilism is God being God, and then also God playing man by exhaustively decreeing every man’s nature, from which springs all thoughts and intentions. Even by the Compatibilist’s own admission, “Compatibilism is no less deterministic than hard determinism.” Within the compatibilist’s framework, there is no such thing as what the human really wants to do in a given situation, considered somehow apart from God’s desire in the matter (i.e., God’s desire as to what the human agent will desire). In the compatibilist scheme, human desire is wholly derived from and wholly bound to the divine desire. God’s decree encompasses everything, even the desires that underlie human choices.

This is a critical point because it undercuts the plausibility of the Compatibilist’s argument that desire can be considered the basis for human culpability. Ascribing culpability to humanity simply because they are ‘doing what they want to do,’ appears plausible only because it subtly evokes a sense of independence or ownership on the part of the human agent for his or her choices.

But once we recognize (as we must within the larger deterministic framework encompassing Compatibilism) that those very desires of the agent are equally part of the environment that God causally determines, then the line between environment and agent becomes blurred, if not completely lost. The human agent no longer can be seen as owning his own choices. For the desires determining those choices are in no significant sense independent of God’s decree.

For this reason, we feel human desire within the compatibilist framework forms an insufficient basis on which to establish the autonomy of human freedom and from this the legitimacy of human culpability for sin. Even John Calvin recognized this problem within the claims of his systematic:

John Calvin: “How it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author or approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance…. I daily so meditate on these mysteries of his judgments that curiosity to know anything more does not attract me.”​

As a disclaimer, philosophical Compatibilism should not be confused with the fact that Scripture shows God working compatibly with the intentions of others. For example, in Genesis 37:28 (as it relates to 50:20), God may have steered the Midianite traders nearby to Joseph’s brothers because He knew that utilizing them as an alternative to murdering their brother would be “compatible” with their intentions and interests, with which God would then facilitate Joseph’s rescue, apart from having to use more obvious, supernatural intervention. In other words, saying that two things are compatible is not to say that this makes philosophical Compatibilism true. That would be an equivocation fallacy. For instance, just because a husband and wife’s wills are compatible in accomplishing something doesn’t mean “Compatibilism” is true.

I prefer the term "real choice" to free will. Because when speaking with Calvinists sometimes they will make the correct point that our will is not free, though they unfortunately do so in order to make the point for determinism. Using "real choice" kind of removes the baggage of the external forces on our will or the situations we find ourselves in which limit our decision making to various extents.

Thank you for your write up, it condensed a lot of useful information. God bless

 

[Lost Witness]

In the end scripture does say God's elect.
Does imply he chose them.
Just as the LORD Jesus chose his original disciples to go and bare much fruit that endures.
just as he chose Saul to go to the gentiles.

 

[John Mullally]

In the end scripture does say God's elect.
Does imply he chose them.
Just as the LORD Jesus chose his original disciples to go and bare much fruit that endures.
just as he chose Saul to go to the gentiles.

Today, we are living in the Son’s post-Calvary drawing of “all men” (John 12:32). Remember that God had good plans for all Israel per Jeremiah 29:11, and yet few saw that benefit. What was the disconnect? The disconnect is that many did not receive God's promise due to unbelief (Hebrews 4:1-3). Yet faith has always been available as it comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), and we all choose what we listen to. The downfall of the generation that exited Egypt and did not enter the promised land is that they listened to the majority opinion (the 10 unbelieving spies), instead of God which was expressed by the 2 believing spies (Joshua and Caleb).

John 12: 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”​

No one should operate under the assumption that God may not desire them to be saved (as 1 Timothy 2:4 contradicts this), nor that they are barred from coming to Christ when Jesus says He will not turn any away (John 6:37). Peter promises salvation to those who choose to repent and be baptized (Acts 2:36-41). Jesus promises the same in Mark 16:15-16. 1 Timothy 4:10 affirms that God is the Savior of all people, even those who by choice do not receive His offer of eternal life through their unbelief - the fact that God is the savior of even those who remain unbelievers shows that any who go to hell do so of their own volition. Don't get wrapped around the axle pondering whether or not God sincerely offers you or anyone else salvation by stumbling over the Calvinists understanding of the term "elect" - study what is written in the Bible beyond swallowing particular interpretations of the Calvinist "proof texts". For example, just the plain understanding of 1 Timothy 2:4 should have been sufficient to prevent Calvinism from ever getting a foot-hold. Examine all the other scriptures that likewise plainly contradict Calvinism.

 

[1SimpleMan]

In my 40+ years I have yet to hear "calvinists" attempt to truly synthesize this in the way that is categorized on this thread. True that quite a few virulent young people get carried away in such matters and love the argument, as do the theologians, but reformed folks generally just simply accept that scriptures speak to both sides - and yes as Calvin did - accept the mystery without trying to force them together.
Only some people feel the need to have to land on one side or the other of this equation and likewise feel the need to philosophy passages of scripture away, either so that don't seem offensive to their free will or so as to defend God's sovereignty.

Reformed folks just accept by faith that we don't understand it and we are called both to faithfulness and full dependence.

Disclaimer, I'm not intending to responding to any one post or any one of the arguments submitted, only to the general theme that there is an attempt to harmonize these two ideas at-large among "calvinists". We can't harmonize how many galaxies exist and their relationship in the universe to each other but we accept it. We can't understand the pleasure that God takes in his creation when he looks down to see blind shrimp feeding in the deepest parts of the ocean, but we know he does and we accept it. That is what most lay people and faithful reformed leaders believe.

[Anymore] "I'm not young enough to know everything." Oscar Wilde

 

[Mark Quayle]

In my 40+ years I have yet to hear "calvinists" attempt to truly synthesize this in the way that is categorized on this thread. True that quite a few virulent young people get carried away in such matters and love the argument, as do the theologians, but reformed folks generally just simply accept that scriptures speak to both sides - and yes as Calvin did - accept the mystery without trying to force them together.
Only some people feel the need to have to land on one side or the other of this equation and likewise feel the need to philosophy passages of scripture away, either so that don't seem offensive to their free will or so as to defend God's sovereignty.

Reformed folks just accept by faith that we don't understand it and we are called both to faithfulness and full dependence.

Disclaimer, I'm not intending to responding to any one post or any one of the arguments submitted, only to the general theme that there is an attempt to harmonize these two ideas at-large among "calvinists". We can't harmonize how many galaxies exist and their relationship in the universe to each other but we accept it. We can't understand the pleasure that God takes in his creation when he looks down to see blind shrimp feeding in the deepest parts of the ocean, but we know he does and we accept it. That is what most lay people and faithful reformed leaders believe.

[Anymore] "I'm not young enough to know everything." Oscar Wilde

Maybe that's because what Calvinists / the Reformed see as compatible, and, in fact necessary, is too hard to explain to a self-deterministic mindset. To me both facts are obvious, that First Cause caused all subsequent things, and that we do actually choose. The difference in mode of being, and basis of existence, are so big that even the word 'existence' as applies to us, is a different thing from the word applied to God. Our very existence depends on his, and our every motion of will depends on his. This is not robotics, but the subsuming of one fact to another.

As the CWF puts it, not only is the will (and other things) not violated by God's decree, but rather, "established".

And, as any Calvinistic, Reformed, or Monergistic website bears out, it is not only entirely logical, but Scriptural.

To my thinking, it is astounding that people that have lived in their own skin for any reasonable number of years should think that they are the masters of their own heart and mind, nevermind over their own futures. Do we decide? —yes. Are our choices real? —of course! But only God establishes the facts, by use of many things, including our choices.

 

[1SimpleMan]

Maybe that's because ...

Thank you for the response...I get your overall point, which is not in disagreement with me, however, the context is somewhat missing. You begin with "maybe that's because" and then you proceed to quote my entire post. It would be helpful with a little more precision to elaborate on what "thats" is predicated on.

To dare simplify what I have already said, faith is all that is required and not intellectual assent. Most reformed folks, but not all, in my life have understood that and the others have lived by the security of their well thought out theology. Thank the Lord that faith as a mustard seed is enough, or else 2 of my 8 children with mental challenges could never hope to be so valuable to the kingdom. But their weakness is the strength of the Lord and their simple ability to read God's word, despite its seeming contradictions at times, and to believe it without the aid of all the theology to make it reasonable is a more beautiful thing.

 

[John Mullally]

Calvinists oftentimes promote a view called compatibilism. Although they claim this ensures that our choices are free it is a nonsensical notion. I appreciate them not wanting to make God the author of sin or men into robots, but that is what it does. All things in Calvinism (including in the combatibilist view) are determined/ordained by God. Only a Calvinist would say that it is logically coherent that people are pre-programmed to act a certain way but still call their actions free. Free will and determinism are mutually exclusive terms.

Another argument (this time simpler): Compatibilism is a variant of Calvinism that strains to move away from Calvin's own presentation of God as our puppet-master (see below) while holding man accountable. Per Compatibilism, God has us duped into believing our every pre-determined thought and action are our own idea and thus we are now fully accountable for each of those thoughts and actions. No, if man's actions are externally scripted (i.e. he can make no changes), no matter the method employed, man is not accountable!

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, if man's actions are externally scripted (i.e. he can make no changes), no matter the method employed, man is not accountable!

Your own reasoning betrays you. If man "can make no changes", I could even extrapolate that to say that man determines all his outcomes, and not God.

The thinking of the Calvinist runs more along the lines that what man chooses, God has already determined —THUS, man's ability to choose is established. Do you understand the essence of EXISTENCE? There's nothing automatic about it. It is ALL by God's design and power.

You paint Calvinism against a backdrop of "brute fact" (default fact, "the Omni", reality) that includes all principles, God and creatures, among other things like math and beauty. Calvinism paints God as the backdrop, beyond "the Omni". Reality is God's 'invention'. Absolute arrangement of fact is God's doing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The reason why it is difficult to synthesize predestination with free choice is the view that both are existent in our space-time dimension. The fact is that our free choice is within our space-time dimension, and God's decree of predestination is outside of it, because God dwells outside of space and time. We live in a four dimensional universe - length, width, height and time. Therefore we have just one of four dimensions to play around with. God, being outside of our finite universe, has an infinite number of dimensions to use, and He can match predestination from any of His dimensions to our finite ones. What this means is that no matter what free choice decision we make, God can predestine it. This makes sense of the Scripture, "Man may plan his way [free choice] but God directs his steps [predestination].

Of course, Calvin and subsequent ultra-Calvinists had no idea of the different laws of physics that exist in our universe and outside of it where God dwells. This is what enabled the risen Jesus to walk on water, instantly transport the disciples' boat from the middle of the sea to their destination, feed five thousand people with 5 small loaves and three fish, and walk through walls. Because He operated under a different law of physics, our laws of physics didn't apply to Him. The problem arises when we try to fit God's predestination and our free choice within the same four dimensional universe. It doesn't work, because the one conflicts with the other. In the same way, if Jesus was limited to our laws of physics, He would not have been able to walk though the wall, but would have had to use the door like everyone else. But Jesus, being God as well as man, could step outside our laws of physics and walk through the wall into the locked upper room where the disciples were.

Therefore, within His own infinite number of dimensions. God knows every free choice alternative we can make, and no matter how we freely choose, He can continue to guide our steps, because no choice we make is a surprise to Him. He can plan our whole lives down to the finest detail, and yet allow us to freely choose where and how we want to go. This is consistent with the Scripture, "He sticks to us closer than a brother." and it doesn't matter where we go. God is there with us. It is not that God compensates for the choices we make, He knows the choices we will make and includes them in His plan for our lives. It is when we look back over the past events in our lives we see evidence of that planning, and yet, we had made free choices all along the way.

This shows that we don't have to worry about whether we are making the right life choices or not. We can have confidence that we are being led by the Spirit, although we are rarely aware of it.

 

[John Mullally]

No, if man's actions are externally scripted (i.e. he can make no changes), no matter the method employed, man is not accountable!

Your own reasoning betrays you. If man "can make no changes", I could even extrapolate that to say that man determines all his outcomes, and not God.

This might be better - but I don't expect you will agree: Where man is not at liberty to choose to act in an acceptable way he cannot be accountable for that action. Under Calvinism/Compatibilism all man's thoughts and actions are decreed - so there are no options.

Non-Calvinists do not believe that God has made everyone’s choices for them, but rather has determined that everyone will be free to make their own choices, within the scope of autonomy and independence that God has granted mankind, that is, either to follow God or to walk away from God. God intervenes how and when He deems fit, according to His own plans and purposes, and ultimately judges all unforgiven sin on Judgment Day.

The thinking of the Calvinist runs more along the lines that what man chooses, God has already determined —THUS, man's ability to choose is established. Do you understand the essence of EXISTENCE? There's nothing automatic about it. It is ALL by God's design and power.

If God predetermined all our thoughts and choices, then we don't really have any choices. Its like the old-style communist elections where the populace is incentivized to vote but there is only one name for each position on the ballot. And they call that a free election.

 

[John Mullally]

The reason why it is difficult to synthesize predestination with free choice is the view that both are existent in our space-time dimension. The fact is that our free choice is within our space-time dimension, and God's decree of predestination is outside of it, because God dwells outside of space and time. We live in a four dimensional universe - length, width, height and time. Therefore we have just one of four dimensions to play around with. God, being outside of our finite universe, has an infinite number of dimensions to use, and He can match predestination from any of His dimensions to our finite ones. What this means is that no matter what free choice decision we make, God can predestine it. This makes sense of the Scripture, "Man may plan his way [free choice] but God directs his steps [predestination].

Of course, Calvin and subsequent ultra-Calvinists had no idea of the different laws of physics that exist in our universe and outside of it where God dwells. This is what enabled the risen Jesus to walk on water, instantly transport the disciples' boat from the middle of the sea to their destination, feed five thousand people with 5 small loaves and three fish, and walk through walls. Because He operated under a different law of physics, our laws of physics didn't apply to Him. The problem arises when we try to fit God's predestination and our free choice within the same four dimensional universe. It doesn't work, because the one conflicts with the other. In the same way, if Jesus was limited to our laws of physics, He would not have been able to walk though the wall, but would have had to use the door like everyone else. But Jesus, being God as well as man, could step outside our laws of physics and walk through the wall into the locked upper room where the disciples were.

Therefore, within His own infinite number of dimensions. God knows every free choice alternative we can make, and no matter how we freely choose, He can continue to guide our steps, because no choice we make is a surprise to Him. He can plan our whole lives down to the finest detail, and yet allow us to freely choose where and how we want to go. This is consistent with the Scripture, "He sticks to us closer than a brother." and it doesn't matter where we go. God is there with us. It is not that God compensates for the choices we make, He knows the choices we will make and includes them in His plan for our lives. It is when we look back over the past events in our lives we see evidence of that planning, and yet, we had made free choices all along the way.

This shows that we don't have to worry about whether we are making the right life choices or not. We can have confidence that we are being led by the Spirit, although we are rarely aware of it.

I don't like to get into spinning on synthesis, physics and multiple dimensions. God is operating far beyond anything the brightest of us can begin to comprehend as evidenced by the complexity of DNA and its replication. The Bible proclaims God given practical wisdom which when fully employed were demonstrated through Jesus's mighty works - and which Jesus said those works are to continue by His followers after Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't like to get into spinning on synthesis, physics and multiple dimensions. God is operating far beyond anything the brightest of us can begin to comprehend as evidenced by the complexity of DNA and its replication. The Bible proclaims God given practical wisdom which when fully employed were demonstrated through Jesus's mighty works - and which Jesus said those works are to continue by His followers after Him.

Predestination is an act of God and He dwells outside of our space time dimension. He created time and space, therefore He must dwell beyond it. Therefore predestination is not of the creation, but of God who is outside of creation. But free choice is within the creation. The confusion arises when theologians try to fit God into our finite time space dimension. If He did, He would be visible to us. The fact that He is not, shows that He does not fit into our finite laws of physics. God did come to Judea in human form for 33 years to show us His true nature and character, but then He went back to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit, who being God, does not comply with our laws of physics and is therefore invisible to us.

 

[John Mullally]

Predestination is an act of God and He dwells outside of our space time dimension. He created time and space, therefore He must dwell beyond it. Therefore predestination is not of the creation, but of God who is outside of creation. But free choice is within the creation. The confusion arises when theologians try to fit God into our finite time space dimension. If He did, He would be visible to us. The fact that He is not, shows that He does not fit into our finite laws of physics. God did come to Judea in human form for 33 years to show us His true nature and character, but then He went back to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit, who being God, does not comply with our laws of physics and is therefore invisible to us.

That is a speculative way to reconcile your understanding of predestination with free-will. Another view is that predestination in the Bible has nothing to do with God pre-determing our every thought and action or even predetermining who will be saved.

In the Bible, predestination refers to anything that God has purposed and planned to do in advance. Here are some examples:

1. Romans 8:29: “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.”
2. Ephesians 1:5-6: “In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”
3. Ephesians 1:11: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
4. Luke 22:22: “‘For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!’”
5. Acts 2:23: “‘This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.’”
6. Acts 4:27-28: “‘For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.’”
7. 1 Corinthians 2:7: “But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”

I view the first three examples of "predestination" as dealing with God’s eternal plans for the destiny of saved Christians. While the other instances deal with God's plans involving specific events, such as Calvary, in which His plans include His omniscient foreknowledge, evident from Acts 2:23. After all, why wouldn’t God use His omniscience in all of His activities? Certainly, God does have this ability. Jesus knew the future free choice of Peter that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crows. (John 13:38) It would only seem reasonable that God would use His limitless knowledge of all things actual and potential, as a basis for His own interactions to steer all things forward toward His predetermined objective.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is a speculative way to reconcile your understanding of predestination with free-will. Another view is that predestination in the Bible has nothing to do with God pre-determing our every thought and action or even predetermining who will be saved.

In the Bible, predestination refers to anything that God has purposed and planned to do in advance. Here are some examples:

1. Romans 8:29: “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.”
2. Ephesians 1:5-6: “In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”
3. Ephesians 1:11: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
4. Luke 22:22: “‘For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!’”
5. Acts 2:23: “‘This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.’”
6. Acts 4:27-28: “‘For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.’”
7. 1 Corinthians 2:7: “But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”

I view the first three examples of "predestination" as dealing with God’s eternal plans for the destiny of saved Christians. While the other instances deal with God's plans involving specific events, such as Calvary, in which His plans include His omniscient foreknowledge, evident from Acts 2:23. After all, why wouldn’t God use His omniscience in all of His activities? Certainly, God does have this ability. Jesus knew the future free choice of Peter that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crows. (John 13:38) It would only seem reasonable that God would use His limitless knowledge of all things actual and potential, as a basis for His own interactions to steer all things forward toward His predetermined objective.

The problem is that you are putting God into the same space-time material dimension as we are. God can work with as many dimensions He likes and no matter what free choice decisions we make, He can predetermine our progress through life. He knew from before the foundation of the world who was and is going to turn to Christ, and He wrote their names in His book of life. That book of life is complete, because He knows who is going to be saved and who is going to perish. It is all on the basis of free will choice. If it were not so, He would not be able to exercise judgment, because one cannot be judged on actions they have no control over.

The reality in which God resides is well beyond our reasoning ability to even grasp a fraction of it. Any perception of God is greatly limiting Him. God's ways or not our ways, as far as heaven is above the earth, so are His ways above our ways. Even though our 4 dimensional universe is finite (we see this in Job 38, where God has set the boundaries of it), the distance between us and the full expanse of the universe to the border which divides our space-time reality with the greater reality where God resides is so great that we have no way of being able to imagine it, let alone appreciate it. Therefore God's ways are so above ours, that our minds are blown when we try to think about it.

This shows the grace of God and His condescension to us in sending The Son as a human being so that we can get an appreciation of His nature and character. Still the act of Jesus walking on water, feeding 5000 people with a small boy's lunch, walking through walls, calming a raging storm, calling a four day dead person out of the grave, caused such amazement that they exclaimed, "Just who is this man?" It took a direct revelation from the Father to Peter for him to say to Jesus: "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God!" The fact that God Himself can come to earth and spend 33 years walking amongst us is totally amazing in itself.

So I don't think we should limit God, but accept by faith that already we have free will choice, He can and does predetermine our direction in life.

 

[John Mullally]

The problem is that you are putting God into the same space-time material dimension as we are. God can work with as many dimensions He likes and no matter what free choice decisions we make, He can predetermine our progress through life.

The "space-time material dimension" talk is not mentioned in the Bible.

He knew from before the foundation of the world who was and is going to turn to Christ, and He wrote their names in His book of life. That book of life is complete, because He knows who is going to be saved and who is going to perish.

In the "for those whom he foreknew" of Romans 8:29, is Paul speaking about those who God long ago knew would become believers or is Paul speaking past tense in referencing OT saints, whom he lists throughout Romans, that went on their reward. In the only other place in Romans where Paul used foreknew " (Romans 11:2), he is again speaking past tense and talking about OT Israelites.

When are names written in the book of life? John 5:24 speaks of believing in Him causing people to transition from death into life. So does believing in Him cause our name to be written in the book of life? Psalms 69:28 and Revelation 22:18-19 warns of names being blotted out of the book of life - why would that be in the Bible if that is not a possibility?

It is all on the basis of free will choice. If it were not so, He would not be able to exercise judgment, because one cannot be judged on actions they have no control over.

We agree here.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The "space-time material dimension" talk is not mentioned in the Bible.

In the "for those whom he foreknew" of Romans 8:29, is Paul speaking about those who God long ago knew would become believers or is Paul speaking past tense in referencing OT saints, whom he lists throughout Romans, that went on their reward. In the only other place in Romans where Paul used foreknew " (Romans 11:2), he is again speaking past tense and talking about OT Israelites.

When are names written in the book of life? John 5:24 speaks of believing in Him causing people to transition from death into life. So does believing in Him cause our name to be written in the book of life? Psalms 69:28 and Revelation 22:18-19 warns of names being blotted out of the book of life - why would that be in the Bible if that is not a possibility?

We agree here.

Scientists have now discovered that our universe is finite. It has a length, width and height, and it is expanding over time from a central point where they say the "big bang" occurred. This means that our universe is four dimensional.

Also, most Evolutionists are "Deist Evolutionists" in that they believe that there was a designer, although they don't acknowledge it was God. This designer, in their view, does not take any part in the development of the universe, and so leave it to a natural process. Deist theology involves there being a First Cause (God) who created everything, but does not involve Himself with us. Therefore a Theist Evolutionist is one who believes that God created the universe and is fully involved in the further maintenance of it, through the evolutionary process over billions of years.

Also, there is increasing scientific opinion that because the reality we live in is finite and in four dimensions with boundaries, then there must be a greater reality beyond it where there is an intelligence, infinitely more powerful that what we know who or what is responsible for the "big bang" that started the expansion of the material universe. The theory is that the "big bang" started with intense heat, and according to the Law of Thermodynamics, is cooling down as it expands. The present state of the universe is just at the right stage of expansion and cooling to support animal and human life on our planet.

These theories have been advanced by atheist and non-Biblical scientists., rather than generated by Biblical theologians with science degrees.

What concerns me is the level of hate speech made toward those who are putting forward scientific explanations for the creation of the cosmos. I view put down criticisms of the results of my learning because I don't have a science degree as hate speech by those professing Christians who have a blind spot about the importance of including the natural world in our thinking about how God created the cosmos. In my view, there is nothing in the Bible that negates the cosmos being created over billions of years in six distinct stages of development. According to the various meanings of the Hebrew word "yom" it is just as Biblical to say that the cosmos was created in six epochs of time as to say it took just six 24 days.

 

[Don Maurer]

That is a speculative way to reconcile your understanding of predestination with free-will. Another view is that predestination in the Bible has nothing to do with God pre-determing our every thought and action or even predetermining who will be saved.

In the Bible, predestination refers to anything that God has purposed and planned to do in advance. Here are some examples:

1. Romans 8:29: “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.”
2. Ephesians 1:5-6: “In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”
3. Ephesians 1:11: “In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
4. Luke 22:22: “‘For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!’”
5. Acts 2:23: “‘This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.’”
6. Acts 4:27-28: “‘For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.’”
7. 1 Corinthians 2:7: “But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”

I view the first three examples of "predestination" as dealing with God’s eternal plans for the destiny of saved Christians. While the other instances deal with God's plans involving specific events, such as Calvary, in which His plans include His omniscient foreknowledge, evident from Acts 2:23. After all, why wouldn’t God use His omniscience in all of His activities? Certainly, God does have this ability. Jesus knew the future free choice of Peter that he would deny Him three times before the rooster crows. (John 13:38) It would only seem reasonable that God would use His limitless knowledge of all things actual and potential, as a basis for His own interactions to steer all things forward toward His predetermined objective.

Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result to preserve many people alive."
* This is an example of what Calvinists mean in the doctrine of double predestination. In the above biblical statement, the intent of God was to preserve many. To achieve this, God intended for Joseph to be sold into slavery by his brothers.

Also, if you look at your own verses above... The verses under points 4 - 6 involve a predestination of an evil murder. Of course the greatest predestined evil also results in the greatest predestined good, the shed blood of Christ that results in the salvation of Christians.

* Reformed people would agree with you that God would never participate in evil. God did not take part in putting Joseph in the pit or selling him into slavery. God did not magically place Jesus on the cross or magically enter into men's minds and make them want to murder Jesus. Actually God does not need to do that since we are already sinful enough to do it by ourselves. Double predestination by no means suggests that God participated in any evil. To even think that Reformed theology suggest that God participates in evil when he predestines evil is to set up a straw man.

The question of double predestination is this---> did God intend for evil to happen? Was evil some free will accident that God may have seen it coming, but when it actually happened God said "oh no, I really did not want that to happen!!" Will God be at the edge of hell biting his nails weeping because some choose evil? In non-Calvinist theology, evil is religated to the "free will" of man and just left there as if God had no purpose or design to receive any glory from judging evil or overcoming evil. Reformed people would say "yes" all that happens, including evil, God intended for it to happen. God predestined it to happen. God intends for sinners to sin. Romans 9 tells us why God intended for sin (and sins) to happen. Romans 9:21-22 "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same limp one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and make His power known..." In these two verses can be seen the purpose of God in predestining evil. God wanted to judge evil and make his wrath on evil and his power over evil known. If evil had never ever existed, then it would only be theoretical that God would judge evil, or demonstrate his power over evil. God predestined evil so that in eternity men will praise his holy attributes that were demonstrated against evil. Your denial of double predestination fly's is against the argument of Romans 9.

When you say "predestination in the Bible has nothing to do with God pre-determing our every thought and action or even predetermining who will be saved." A lot here depends upon what you mean by the term "pre-determining." Again, God does not participate in the sinful thoughts or actions, but he predestines them to happen in the sense that he wants them to happen so that he might show the glory of his wrath upon sin. That is part of the glory of the cross.

 

[hedrick]

* Reformed people would agree with you that God would never participate in evil. God did not take part in putting Joseph in the pit or selling him into slavery. God did not magically place Jesus on the cross or magically enter into men's minds and make them want to murder Jesus. Actually God does not need to do that since we are already sinful enough to do it by ourselves. Double predestination by no means suggests that God participated in any evil. To even think that Reformed theology suggest that God participates in evil when he predestines evil is to set up a straw man.

While Calvin seems to have thought that God wills everything that happens, that's not essential. Predestination is really about salvation. It's a recognition that we can't have faith on our own, but only because God has moved us or inspired us. At least for Luther, the question of people who aren't saved is really an afterthought. He's not prepared to say why some aren't saved, just that we are saved only because God saves us, with no merit on our own.

Even for Calvin, the discussion of predestination occurs after he has already talked about faith and justification. Unlike Luther, he doesn't think we can ignore the fact that God only saves some people. He doesn't give an answer -- that's pretty much impossible, but acknowledges that if salvation only happens because of God's grace, then somehow lack of salvation must be part of his plan.