Calvary Chapel produces Calvinists

[JM]

A Sad Blast from George Bryson

Over the past few years I have experienced what has become a regular occurrence when traveling and speaking across the US, UK, and Australia. I will be approached by someone, most often a man, who tells me his story of being a member of a Calvary Chapel, following the exhortation to read and study the Scriptures, and coming to an understanding of God's sovereign grace and the perfection of the work of Christ on the cross. He will talk about how he began to ask questions, and very soon encountered a great deal of resistance, even being labeled a trouble maker. Many report they have left, and have found a home where the whole counsel of God is taught. Some are still there, fighting the good fight. I have stated now, a number of times, on the Dividing Line, that the current Calvary Chapel leadership will continue producing Calvinists as long as they continue to 1) ignore the reality of the system they oppose (choosing to present shallow straw-man versions and responses, as we have documented so many times), 2) while encouraging their followers to believe in all the Bible says, to study it, and to apply it. Over the past year many of those who approach me (I had two or three do this just last weekend in Minneapolis) use this same terminology to describe their own experience. "You know how you say Calvary Chapel produces Calvinists? Well, that's me!"

 

[MagusAlbertus]

So... You are saying (via quote) that if someone fails to believe in Calvinism after being confronted with an argument against it then they failed step 2 which is to " believe in all the Bible says, to study it, and to apply it."

Or, at very least, that often when confronted with the typical straw-person arguments regarding Calvinism those that " believe in all the Bible says, to study it, and to apply it" often come to a point where Calvinism is something they must believe in.

Which one of the two are you trying to argue here? 'cause the quote doesn't stand on its own and was actually quite hard to comprehend without knowing who/what Calvary Chapel is.

Further, unless you are James White you need to let us know that this is a quote, not just by linking but also by letting us know who wrote the thing; or offsetting it with quote tags.

 

[56Bluesman]

I can make no sense of the OP's post either, and I used to attend a Calvary Chapel church for a little while, years ago. They are a church that started under pastor Chuck Smith who ministered to the Jesus People, who came to Christ during the revival that took fire in California and spread across the nation, through baby boomer youth culture, back during the late 60's and 70's.

 

[JM]

So... You are saying (via quote) that if someone fails to believe in Calvinism after being confronted with an argument against it then they failed step 2 which is to " believe in all the Bible says, to study it, and to apply it."

Yes.

Or, at very least, that often when confronted with the typical straw-person arguments regarding Calvinism those that " believe in all the Bible says, to study it, and to apply it" often come to a point where Calvinism is something they must believe in.

Staw “person” argument? Man, you are way too politically correct for me. A straw “person” argument? lol


I already answered yes to the rest of the question.

Which one of the two are you trying to argue here? 'cause the quote doesn't stand on its own and was actually quite hard to comprehend without knowing who/what Calvary Chapel is.

I understand you have a hard time comprehending the op, it was a teaser and posted in a way that would encourage you to following the link ABOVE it to learn more.

Further, unless you are James White you need to let us know that this is a quote, not just by linking but also by letting us know who wrote the thing; or offsetting it with quote tags.

Further nothing Professor, don't lecture me on proper quoting, this isn’t a collage class and as you clearly pointed out you knew it was a quote. You may not have understood the quote but you did understand that it was a quote by James White.

For you Magy, just because you asked so nicely, I'll change the op to include quotes...for extra marks.

 

[DeaconDean]

Further nothing Professor, don't lecture me on proper quoting, this isn’t a collage class and as you clearly pointed out you knew it was a quote. You may not have understood the quote but you did understand that it was a quote by James White.

For you Magy, just because you asked so nicely, I'll change the op to include quotes...for extra marks.

I don't have nothing to add to this discussion other than to add that there is one individual in this area, who that unless you quote properly, give credit where credit is due and to the right person, you may face other actions.

I speak from the voice of experience. Just because this isn't a class doesn't mean a thing Herr Professor.

Or it could be that they only do that to me.

Either way, I'd cover all my bases.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JM]

Dean, you didn't quote at all, make reference or anything. Just a straight lift. I gave a direct link before you got to the quote. If you missed it...well...nothing to say to that.

 

[desmalia]

A Sad Blast from George Bryson

Well that makes perfect sense to me. Studying the Scriptures often has that affect on people. Happened to me (though I was in an Arminian Baptist church, not a CC, but same idea).
Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[MagusAlbertus]

Further nothing Professor, don't lecture me on proper quoting, this isn’t a collage class and as you clearly pointed out you knew it was a quote.

It was clear only after I clicked on the link and noticed that your name was not the person who wrote the thing.

What's wrong with trying to communicate clearly? To smarty-pants for ya huh?


Have you considered that there may well be just as many examples of people raised strict Calvinist that also saw the light and became Arminian/Wesleyan ?

Or are they all dead in their sin and thus not predestined?


Ignorance and intolerance of others that follow after Christ is defintly not the behavior of the predestined.

 

[JM]

It was clear only after I clicked on the link and noticed that your name was not the person who wrote the thing.

What's wrong with trying to communicate clearly? To smarty-pants for ya huh?

It's too, not to.

Have you considered that there may well be just as many examples of people raised strict Calvinist that also saw the light and became Arminian/Wesleyan ?

Or are they all dead in their sin and thus not predestined?

It's a lot less common.

Ignorance and intolerance of others that follow after Christ is defintly not the behavior of the predestined.

The ecumenical movement is for Roman Catholics and Liberals.

 

[AndrewH73]

I have listened to both Chuck Smith and Jon Courson go through the entire Bible. They are very balanced and their teaching is solid. They are not hardline Calvinists by any means. I did not become a Calvinist through their teachings. Anyway, listen for yourself:

Well, it won't let me post links because I am under 50 posts. Go to YouTube and type "Pastor Chuck Smith Exposes Calvinism" into the search engine there.

 

[98cwitr]

YouTube - Pastor Chuck Smith Exposes Calvinism

 

[desmalia]

This one is better:

http://youtu.be/U8whxBj2fQYYouTube - Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, and their Ignorance Fest on Calvinism (James White)

 

[JM]

This one is better:

YouTube - Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, and their Ignorance Fest on Calvinism (James White)

 

[desmalia]

Can't get it to convert to a video here for some reason.

 

[JM]

YouTube - Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, and their Ignorance Fest on Calvinism (James White)

 

[AndrewH73]

I have seen this before and I knew someone was going to post it. A few things here:

First taking the plank out of our own eyes:

The link that I referred to should have used the word "exposes". That was too strong in my opinion.

Calvinists should not have been compared to a cult. That was also too harsh. They did not say they were a cult though. I have heard Calvinists mentioned mostly with respect by Calvary Chapel teachers including Chuck Smith. They disagree with parts of the doctrine but believe most Calvinists are outstanding Christians. John Calvin was a great teacher.

However:

Chuck Smith does not have the role of "pope" or "archbishop" like this video claims. That is totally false.

It is clear that Chuck Smith's words are being misunderstood throughout the video by Mr. White. I don't think it is malicious or intentional, but a misunderstanding. He was so offended (again the word "cult" should not have been used) that he didn't listen clearly.

To get a better understanding of Pastor Chuck Smith's view on Romans 8, go online and listen to him teach through the entire chapter.

 

[Skala]

I saw George Bryson attempt to handle John 6:44 once...

 

[AndrewH73]

My personal take is this. I don't believe that predestination and free will are mutually exclusive. On this side of Heaven I will concern myself mainly with the Great Commission and "whosoever will, come". Once I get to Heaven, I will say "I am glad He chose me!"

 

[Skala]

Andrew, the question at the heart of the issue is this:

Why and how did those willing ones become willing? (Whoever will..)

Because they are just plain smarter, more spiritual, wiser, more humble than their non believing friends...

Or because God called them, predestined them, appointed them to eternal life, worked in them grace to change their heart and take off the blindfold?

Arminians believe the former.
Calvinists the latter.

Arminian theology leaves room for men to boast in their own salvation (Boy I sure am glad I was smarter than Hitler or Judas!)

Calvinist theology strips man of boasting (Thank God he chose me or I would have never chosen Him!)

 

[phoenixdem]

Romans

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God
forbid.​

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have
mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.​

9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of
God that sheweth mercy.​

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that
my name might be declared throughout all the earth.​

9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
he will he hardeneth.​

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who
hath resisted his will?​

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the
thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me
thus?​

9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?​

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted
to destruction:​

9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the​

vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

(From the Book of Romans, verses cited, King James Version)

The reader may make what he will of the above quotes.