Byzantine Catholic

[ratchet30]

What are the differences between Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox beliefs? And do the BCs use the RCC Bibles or EO Bibles? Is the liturgy basically the same?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Eastern Catholics have a Divine Liturgy that is basically the same as the Eastern Orthodox. They just are loyal to the Pope and in union with the Vatican.

Sometimes some Eastern Catholics will incorporate a few Western sacramentals and other things but basically they are like Eastern Orthodox with the Pope. Catholics see them as the other lung of the Church, Orthodox see them a little differently....

 

[Mariya116]

Catholics see them as the other lung of the Church, Orthodox see them a little differently....
And how God sees them - He didn't tell us!

 

[gracefullamb]

Catholics see them as the other lung of the Church, Orthodox see them a little differently....
And how God sees them - He didn't tell us!

The Roman Catholic Church's reference to the "other lung" of the Church is Eastern Orthodox not Byzantine Catholics.

 

[ProScribe]

If Orthodox Church believes in the Holy Spirit and Pentecost 33 A.D. how is it different from Pentecostal/Assemblies of God? . .

 

[Eastern Drifter]

Well, in EO and RC beliefs, speaking in tongues was for the express purpose of better spreading the Gospel to other cultures. If you go into a country without speaking the native language, you'll have a near impossible time establishing a church.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

The Orthodox are comprised of various Autocephalous and Autonomous Churches which are united by a common faith, expressing that faith differently. There is no single pope over Orthodoxy.

The Byzantine Catholics came under the jurisdiction of Rome at various times in history, and for various reasons. All are, ultimately, under the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome, because he has universal jurisdiction in that church. The Eastern Catholic Code of Canon Law and Eastern Catholic patriarchs all have to be approved by the Pope of Rome or committees he establishes to do so. While in contemporary times Roman devotions and theological expression have faded from Eastern Catholic speech and practice, they are still in the process of removing what they call "Latinizations", such as the rosary before Divine Liturgy instead of Matins, daily Divine Liturgy, and pews from when they were more common (whether because they were forced on them by Romans, or because they adopted them by osmosis. Orthodox even have a few of these) Eastern Catholics are technically forbidden to have married priests outside of their traditional lands, but this isn't always followed.

In that church, one's "rite" is inherited from their father. Thus, if one is a Greek Catholic they are Greek Catholic even if they're attending a Roman Catholic church. They must obey the canons and fasting schedule of the Greek Catholic church. In Orthodoxy there's no such thing as "rite" and one is just Orthodox. I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, but I go sometimes to the Greek parish down the street. If I wanted to start going exclusively to the Greek parish, I just start going there. There are no forms and no letters to bishops to change. The only way I could be "Serbian Orthodox" is if I were, in fact, Serbian.

So the Liturgies might be the same, or might be very different, depending on which rite, how Latinized it was/is, how close that rite is to Rome in the first place, etc. I think, in contemporary times, the Byzantine Catholics use mostly Orthodox resources, unless they produce their own, which some do (I believe the Melkites are known for this?)

 

[Reader Antonius]

The Roman Catholic Church's reference to the "other lung" of the Church is Eastern Orthodox not Byzantine Catholics.

That's actually not accurate. Both Eastern Catholics (including Oriental Catholics) and Eastern Orthodox have been referred to as the "other lung" of the Church in Catholicism. In fact, I recall discovering that the original usage of "other lung" was applied to Eastern Catholicism.

 

[Reader Antonius]

The Orthodox are comprised of various Autocephalous and Autonomous Churches which are united by a common faith, expressing that faith differently. There is no single pope over Orthodoxy.

The Byzantine Catholics came under the jurisdiction of Rome at various times in history, and for various reasons. All are, ultimately, under the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome, because he has universal jurisdiction in that church. The Eastern Catholic Code of Canon Law and Eastern Catholic patriarchs all have to be approved by the Pope of Rome or committees he establishes to do so. While in contemporary times Roman devotions and theological expression have faded from Eastern Catholic speech and practice, they are still in the process of removing what they call "Latinizations", such as the rosary before Divine Liturgy instead of Matins, daily Divine Liturgy, and pews from when they were more common (whether because they were forced on them by Romans, or because they adopted them by osmosis. Orthodox even have a few of these) Eastern Catholics are technically forbidden to have married priests outside of their traditional lands, but this isn't always followed.

In that church, one's "rite" is inherited from their father. Thus, if one is a Greek Catholic they are Greek Catholic even if they're attending a Roman Catholic church. They must obey the canons and fasting schedule of the Greek Catholic church. In Orthodoxy there's no such thing as "rite" and one is just Orthodox. I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, but I go sometimes to the Greek parish down the street. If I wanted to start going exclusively to the Greek parish, I just start going there. There are no forms and no letters to bishops to change. The only way I could be "Serbian Orthodox" is if I were, in fact, Serbian.

So the Liturgies might be the same, or might be very different, depending on which rite, how Latinized it was/is, how close that rite is to Rome in the first place, etc. I think, in contemporary times, the Byzantine Catholics use mostly Orthodox resources, unless they produce their own, which some do (I believe the Melkites are known for this?)

Well said! I think this an extremely good answer to the OP's question.

I would only add, for information purposes, that rite in the Catholic Church (currently anyway; the sacred canons would change if full union between Orthodox and Catholics is achieved) is that an Orthodox Christian who "converts" (a horrid term from a Catholic pov since we consider the Orthodox as fully Apostolic Christians) to Catholicism will join the rite that corresponds most closely to their Orthodox heritage. Thus, a Greek Orthodox who converts will be Greek Catholic, not Russian Catholic or Melkite Catholic. And so on. Generally speaking, "Byzantine Catholic" refers to all Eastern Catholics who follow the Constantinopolitan Rite (which is the only rite universally accepted in Eastern Orthodoxy). Thus, the fasting practices would be virtually the same for a Greek Catholic, a Ruthenian Catholic, and a Melkite Catholic since all descend from the Byzantine tradition. Thus with Byzantine Catholicism the only differences between the various "recensions" of the Constantinopolitan Rite generally mirror distinctions between different autocephalous Orthodox churches.

The Oriental Catholics (Coptic Catholic, Syro-Maronite Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Ethiopian Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, and so on) are an entirely different story since they follow customs that are neither Roman nor Byzantine. Generally, I have noticed that they (especially Copts and Ethiopians) do not like being called "Eastern Catholic" as they feel this marks them as being "Byzantine." They prefer "Oriental Catholic" as it expresses their connection to Oriental Orthodoxy. One Coptic Catholic shared with me how many native Coptic Orthodox have seen increasing blurring between Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy. So when they "translate" to the Catholic Church, they wish to be called "Oriental Catholic" to stress their ancient origins in the non-Greek Sees of the East.

I suspect it is similar to how Ambrosian Rite Latins feel when they are called "Roman Catholic" since their heritage is in a non-Roman Western rite. Among the Orthodox, from what I have seen, there is no firm concept of "rite" as to be Orthodox essentially means being a Byzantine Christian. We, for better or worse, do not have that uniformity in the Catholic Church given that there are four great liturgical traditions among us...although the Roman Rite is by far the largest.

A blessed Great Lent to all!!

 

[ratchet30]

To Joseph Hazen: Lets say I joined the Byzantine Catholic church. Since my father is Roman Catholic I would have to follow the rules of fasting from the RCC and not the BC? And are the rules of the BC just as strict as the EO?

To Anyone: Is there an official prayer book in the BC and which Bible do they use? Also, since I was baptized as an infant in the RCC would I have to be rebaptized in the BC? Do the BCs refer at all to the RCC catechism? This is all very confusing.

 

[Reader Antonius]

To Joseph Hazen: Lets say I joined the Byzantine Catholic church. Since my father is Roman Catholic I would have to follow the rules of fasting from the RCC and not the BC? And are the rules of the BC just as strict as the EO?

I guess I'll wait, but I can answer this for you if you wish.

To Anyone: Is there an official prayer book in the BC and which Bible do they use? Also, since I was baptized as an infant in the RCC would I have to be rebaptized in the BC? Do the BCs refer at all to the RCC catechism? This is all very confusing.

There is no official prayer book for the Byzantine Catholic churches (they simply use the Horologion and the text of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom among other books the Eastern Orthodox also use, sometimes very slightly modified) nor is a particular Bible version (in English anyway). The "official" Bible version for BCs is the Septuagint and the Greek NT (or a Slavic translation thereof), much as the Nova Vulgata is the "official" Bible for the Holy Roman Church. But even still that really doesn't mean much in practical terms.

Since you were baptized in the Holy Roman Church, the Byzantine Catholic churches (any of them) will most definitely *NOT* see any need to baptized you. All the churches of the Catholic communion are held together by the bond of love, faith, and communion with Rome. Therefore all the churches recognize each other's sacraments, liturgies, and theology as completely valid. If you were also Confirmed in the Holy Roman Church, the Byzantine Catholics would not re-Chrismate you either for the same reason.

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church was created to be a "universal catechism" which all Catholics (and even non-Catholics) could use. It's kind of a "standard." Even still, the CCC leans towards Western Catholicism since it was composed largely by the Pope and Roman bishops. This does not mean that it contradicts Byzantine Catholic faith, merely that it uses terminology and emphases that BCs might not use. Although, to be fair, we Romans don't have a fully "Roman" catechism in the CCC either since it incorporates many Eastern ideas; hence the use of the CCC as a "universal catechism."

Part of the purpose of the CCC was also to provide a basis for "local" catechism to be published. Thus, many Byzantine Catholics use Byzantine catechisms that are prepared and published by the Bishops/Eparchs of the Byzantine Catholic churches. One of the best is the "Light for Life" catechism (three volumes) published for American Byzantine Catholics (Melkite, Ruthenian, Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, et al.).

But, given that Byzantine Catholics are Eastern Christians, they generally don't use catechisms as much as Roman Catholics. In Eastern Christianity the elaborate and repetive nature of the Divine Liturgy, the Horologion, and other aspects of liturgical and pastoral life in the Eastern Churches functions as a kind of "catechism" in its own way. We Romans, with our liturgical tradition of "noble simplicity" do not have this same mechanism. Our Masses and Divine Office, while noble and beautiful, are much shorter, sober, simple, and practical than the Eastern liturgical tradition. Hence, the Roman Rite doesn't function as a teaching tool as effectively as the Eastern Rites and Churches do.

Don't let yourself be too confused. The hugh diversity of rites in the Catholic Church can be daunting at first, but in time it makes more sense as you aquire more knowledge. Anhelnya often comes to this forum (she is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic) and she might be able to offer more assistance.

God bless you as you learn more about Apostolic Christianity in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches!!!

 

[Anhelyna]

This is really opening a can of worms

I wanted to stay out of this - but here goes

JosephHazen said

In that church, one's "rite" is inherited from their father. Thus, if one is a Greek Catholic they are Greek Catholic even if they're attending a Roman Catholic church. They must obey the canons and fasting schedule of the Greek Catholic church. In Orthodoxy there's no such thing as "rite" and one is just Orthodox. I attend a Serbian Orthodox parish, but I go sometimes to the Greek parish down the street. If I wanted to start going exclusively to the Greek parish, I just start going there. There are no forms and no letters to bishops to change. The only way I could be "Serbian Orthodox" is if I were, in fact, Serbian.

True enough - but there is nothing that prevents any Catholic in 'good standing' with their particular Church from attending and receiving the Sacraments in any of the Catholic Churches [ though there are exceptions as regards Crowning ( marriage) and Ordination ] So I as a member of the UGCC can attend a Melkite Church quite freely. If there is no UGCC Church where I am I can go to ANY Catholic Church and register as a member of the Parish.

Ratchet - yes strictly speaking an RC attending an Eastern Catholic Parish is supposed to stick to RC Fasting and observance of Holy Days BUT once you have been there for some time [ ie are really a member of the parish ] it is really much easier to follow the Eastern fasts etc , and this is something that the Clergy will agree with [ I'm not saying that Eastern Fasts are easy - they are NOT ]

Re Prayer Books - each EC Church does have it's own BUT most of us tend to use Orthodox Prayer Books - eg the Jordanville one or the Old Orthodox Prayer Book from Erie . Other than the mention of the Pope in EC Books, many of our prayers are those that the Orthodox Christians use .

Bible useage - hmm Our Bishop likes the Jerusalem Bible [ not the new Jerusalem ] our Parish has NAB [ and we are in Scotland !! ] I use the New King James [ and I'm a Reader in my Parish ] I'm sure that some ECs do use the Orthodox Study Bible - I don't .

If you were Baptised in the RC Church in infancy and can get hold of your Baptismal Certificate - then you would not be Baptised [ or can find witnesses that would testify to your Baptism being according to the Rite of the Catholic Church ].

Catechism - the Catholic Church does have one - the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is meant to apply to all Catholics - however as the emphasis is sometimes different the EC Churches do have and publish books about their Faith - the UGCC has recently published it's own Catechism but as yet it has not been published in English .

Hope this little lot helps

 

[Reader Antonius]

This is really opening a can of worms

I wanted to stay out of this - but here goes

This is really opening a can of worms...

I thought the same thing. Even still, I think you're probably the most qualified person to speak about this issue on CF since you're the only Byzantine Catholic I know of here. Thus, I'm glad you decided to jump in.

 

[Dylan Michael]

This is really opening a can of worms


True enough - but there is nothing that prevents any Catholic in 'good standing' with their particular Church from attending and receiving the Sacraments in any of the Catholic Churches [ though there are exceptions as regards Crowning ( marriage) and Ordination ] So I as a member of the UGCC can attend a Melkite Church quite freely. If there is no UGCC Church where I am I can go to ANY Catholic Church and register as a member of the Parish.

For ordination that is true. We had a seminarian who was baptized in the Chaldean Catholic church, but had to switch rites in order to be ordained with his Diocese.
However, a priest can gain permission (called "Faculties") to preform the Sacraments from another rite. At my Seminary alone we three priests who are Bi-Ritual. We have an In-House priest who is a Syro-Malabar (a rite native to Southern India) but like most Syro-Malabar priests he has permission to practice the Roman Liturgies and rites.
We have another Spiritual Director priest who is Bi-ritual with his native Roman Rite and with the Ruthenian Rite (Central Europe).
And still another priest who teaches Catechism and Liturgy who is Bi-Ritual Roman and Maronite (Lebanon). The last priest was asked by the Priest of the Maronite Church here in Miami to learn the Maronite liturgy to substitute at the church when he could not be there.

 

[Fran75]

I'm the only other Byazantine Catholic I know of on CF (besides Anhelyna).
You have recieved some good information from the other posters. I don't have a lot to add except that in the last decade, give or take, we have with the encouragement of the late Pope John Paul the 2nd have gone back to our roots and traditions such as infant's receiving communion, no kneeling during liturgy,etc, our parish's church was also remodeld to include an iconostatsis, image an Eastern church with out one, we din't have one for decades, our parish celbrated it's 100 year anniversary last year, at the time it was founded/built the push was to be more like the Romans, we even had a steple instead of an onion dome up unitl I was in elementry school. We are obligated to follow the Cathechism of the Catholic Church and even though I am a cradle Catholic and went to (Byzantine) Catholic school up to 8th grade I am often finding out now, in my mid thirties, dogma that I am supposed to believe, and only from reading books like the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, it seems, at least in our parish/diocese that they have choose not to emphasize some the more "Roman" dogma.

 

[ThePilgrim]

What are the differences between Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox beliefs?

The same as the difference between Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic beliefs. Byzantine Catholics share the same faith as all other Catholics and thus, the same differences of faith with the Orthodox.

And do the BCs use the RCC Bibles or EO Bibles?

Good question! What say our resident Byzantine Catholics?

Is the liturgy basically the same?

Very similar. Byzantine Catholics often commemorate the pope and, occasionally, have some Latin influences in their liturgies, but are otherwise liturgically close, although quite distinct in terms of faith.

In Christ,
Fr. John

 

[Joseph Hazen]

OP, last I heard all Protestants automatically are enrolled as Roman Catholics, doubly so if their father was a Roman. If a protestant convert wants to be Eastern Catholic they have to convert, then apply for a Canonical Transfer, even if they convert in an Eastern parish. Something about all protestants technically having their patrimony in the Western church or something. I saw the documents once, but didn't save them. How well this is followed in practice I haven't a clue, and I didn't save the documents.

Might I respectfully suggest you ask these question in OBOB? It seems more likely that you'll get knowledgeable answers about Roman Catholic canon law on that forum, and Byzantine Catholic practice, especially the technical questions you're asking here. Orthodoxy isn't Byzantine Catholicism and vice versa, I'm only giving information from what I remember when I was Roman.

 

[Dylan Michael]

OP, last I heard all Protestants automatically are enrolled as Roman Catholics, doubly so if their father was a Roman. If a protestant convert wants to be Eastern Catholic they have to convert, then apply for a Canonical Transfer, even if they convert in an Eastern parish. Something about all protestants technically having their patrimony in the Western church or something. I saw the documents once, but didn't save them. How well this is followed in practice I haven't a clue, and I didn't save the documents.

Really? I didn't know that.
I don't see why that would be the case though.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Really? I didn't know that.
I don't see why that would be the case though.

As I said, something about their roots being in the Western church. Again, however, it's something that would probably better be answered on a Roman Catholic than Orthodox forum.

 

[ratchet30]

Do I need Rome's permission to join an EO church? Being protestant seems so easy compared with these apostolic churches