At the Last Supper, they RECLINED at the table. They were supposed to stand.

[dennis777]

John 13;28 Amplified Bible

But nobody RECLINING AT THE TABLE knew why He spoke to them, or what He meant by telling him this.

verse 30 Judas Iscariot went out into the night

Jesus and His disciples left the upper room, into the night,
Jesus was arrested in the garden of Gethsemene , in the NIGHT.

********

BUT!
According to the OT rules,
"Each one was to have his loins girt, to hold a staff in his hand, and to have shoes on his feet. He was to eat in haste, and it would seem that he was to stand during the meal."
As per peloubet's Bible dictionary.

And no-one was to leave the house , during the night. (The Destroying Angel was out there)

***********

My point is:
If the Last Supper was the (lamb-eating) Passover Meal, Jesus broke the Law of Moses.

He left the house in the night.
He washed the feet of the Israelites.
He didn't hold a staff in his hand.
He RECLINED at the table
Where is the lamb?
and the bitter herbs?


The Last Supper was on Wednesday nite
The crucifixicion was Thursday afternoon, at the same time as the lambs were slain
The Lamb of God, and the lambs, died at the same moment.

Christ is our Passover (as per paul).
Christ said , (at the Last Supper) eat this bread , which is My Body (the Passover, in the NT sense).

dennis777

 

[Splayd]

I'm far from an expert on Passover, so if anyone can correct me with sources please do BUT there seem to be a few problems here.

1. Your quote is about the very first Passover. Once it became a commemorative feast it was practiced quite differently. When Jesus celebrated it, the custom was to retell parts of the story, have a question and answer time, sing songs etc... while in the original Passover much of that was impossible or uneccessary.

2. If Jesus and His disciples were celebrating a meal together the night before Passover then He and undoubtedly some of the disciples were also breaking the traditional fast of the firstborn which occurs the day before Passover.

So then, if Passover was Thursday night AND not Wednesday night Jesus messed up... UNLESS - they celebrated 2 Passover meals. It sounds odd, but let me explain - Passover goes for 7 days. The first and last days are full holidays with the Passover meal being shared on the first day. The timing of the first day was set not by a calendar but by the Sadducees observations. Everyone outside of Jerusalem, unsure of which day would be the right day celebrated 8 days of Passover. They kept the first 2 and the last 2 as holidays - so those Jews of the diaspora shared the Passover meal twice, on two consecutive nights and the fast of the firstborn would have only preceded the first of the two. With numerous complications, including a changeover from one calendar to another, disputes of authority between Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes, it wasn't unusual in Jesus time for even those Jews in Jerusalem to keep the 8 day Passover just as those in the diaspora did.

Given that understanding, it's quite possible and maybe even quite likely that Jesus and His disciples were sharing the Passover meal during the last supper AND Jesus was being crucified as the lambs were slain for the following Passover meal.

 

[christianmomof3]

My point is:
If the Last Supper was the (lamb-eating) Passover Meal, Jesus broke the Law of Moses.

He left the house in the night.
He washed the feet of the Israelites.
He didn't hold a staff in his hand.
He RECLINED at the table
Where is the lamb?
and the bitter herbs?


The Last Supper was on Wednesday nite
The crucifixicion was Thursday afternoon, at the same time as the lambs were slain
The Lamb of God, and the lambs, died at the same moment.

Christ is our Passover (as per paul).
Christ said , (at the Last Supper) eat this bread , which is My Body (the Passover, in the NT sense).

dennis777

I am not sure about the point you are trying to make, but on Passover, the Jews recline at the table rather than sit up straight. There is a reason - it is in the Haggadahs that are read through on Passover - I can't recall it now - the Jews or Messianics can help you with that. Not going out at night is not a Passover rule either - it was only, as was stated previously on the first Passover that happened. I have never seen anyone holding a staff in their hand at a seder dinner. I think that you need to study about Passover before you try to come up with theories about it. The Jewish religion is not only found in the Old Testament. It is also based on many other writings - the Talmud, the Midrash, and oral tradition. It appears that the Passover that was observed as the "last supper" was observed properly according to the Jewish religion.

 

[Splayd]

Actually - I'm going to point out a potential inconsistency in something I said

Given that understanding, it's quite possible and maybe even quite likely that Jesus and His disciples were sharing the Passover meal during the last supper AND Jesus was being crucified as the lambs were slain for the following Passover meal.

It would seem unlikely to me that they would celebrate the first day of Passover by holding a late night court, crucifying someone and handling a corpse. That in itself would suggest that they didn't directly follow a Passover meal, but had they eaten the evening before the Passover that would also have been in error. Hmmm... dillema's dillema's.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Dragons87]

The very very first Passover had special rules, because the Israelites had to make a run for it!!

"In the tenth day of this month..." Exodus 12

But after the Israelites settle in Canaan, the Passover became a peaceful celebration.

For the provisions for how Israel is supposed to celebrate Passover on an annual basis, see Deuteronomy 16.

 

[dennis777]

Actually - I'm going to point out a potential inconsistency in something I said


It would seem unlikely to me that they would celebrate the first day of Passover by holding a late night court, crucifying someone and handling a corpse. That in itself would suggest that they didn't directly follow a Passover meal, but had they eaten the evening before the Passover that would also have been in error. Hmmm... dillema's dillema's.

Any other thoughts?

1 Cor 5;7
Christ is our Passover.
So, when I observe the Last Supper, today,......I am celebrating the NT (Gentile) version of the Passover. I'm eating the Passover lamb: "the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world (as per John the Baptist)".

Luke 22;15
Jesus said "I have wanted to eat this passover with you before I suffer".

"I shall never eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God" ...........What does that mean? In the Mill Reign, all people will be vegetatarians. We won't eat a (literal) "lamb" in the Mill Reign.
BUT! Bread and wine would be allowed in the Mill Reign!

dennis777

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There are more than enough threads on this subject... why start a new one?

Forgive me...

 

[Dragons87]

Actually - I'm going to point out a potential inconsistency in something I said


It would seem unlikely to me that they would celebrate the first day of Passover by holding a late night court, crucifying someone and handling a corpse. That in itself would suggest that they didn't directly follow a Passover meal, but had they eaten the evening before the Passover that would also have been in error. Hmmm... dillema's dillema's.

Any other thoughts?

Is it? It seems more likely to me. "Get rid of this pest so we can celebrate the rest of Passover in peace. Leave the responsibilities to the pagan Romans. Legally, ritualistically, we have no part in this guy's death."

 

[JimfromOhio]

Every Christians who are spiritually well educated know where they stand on such matters as the inspiration of the Scriptures, the deity of Jesus Christ, salvation through the blood of atonement, death and judgment, heaven and hell.

If I was going to be picky about ritual communion to the DETAIL, I would add feet washing and love feast (meal) to the communion.

 

[Splayd]

Is it? It seems more likely to me. "Get rid of this pest so we can celebrate the rest of Passover in peace. Leave the responsibilities to the pagan Romans. Legally, ritualistically, we have no part in this guy's death."

Hmmm... I suppose they broke so many laws that night anyway. The whole court case was illegal so their integrity and keeping of the law is aready questionable in this account. It would make a lot more sense to question their observance than Jesus' who was without sin.

 

[stumpjumper]

Christ is our Passover (as per paul).
Christ said , (at the Last Supper) eat this bread , which is My Body (the Passover, in the NT sense).

dennis777

I'm not sure what point you're really trying to make here, though...

John's date for the Last Supper and those of the synoptics are different. John dates it the day before passover as you stated but the synoptics have it on the day of passover (Mark 14:12)...

The meaning, though, is that Jesus is the passover Lamb in John's Gospel and that is the prevailing theme of the whole Gospel...

Why get stuck on the details?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

John 13;28 Amplified Bible

But nobody RECLINING AT THE TABLE knew why He spoke to them, or what He meant by telling him this.

verse 30 Judas Iscariot went out into the night

Jesus and His disciples left the upper room, into the night,
Jesus was arrested in the garden of Gethsemene , in the NIGHT.

********

BUT!
According to the OT rules,
"Each one was to have his loins girt, to hold a staff in his hand, and to have shoes on his feet. He was to eat in haste, and it would seem that he was to stand during the meal."
As per peloubet's Bible dictionary.

And no-one was to leave the house , during the night. (The Destroying Angel was out there)

***********

My point is:
If the Last Supper was the (lamb-eating) Passover Meal, Jesus broke the Law of Moses.

He left the house in the night.
He washed the feet of the Israelites.
He didn't hold a staff in his hand.
He RECLINED at the table
Where is the lamb?
and the bitter herbs?


The Last Supper was on Wednesday nite
The crucifixicion was Thursday afternoon, at the same time as the lambs were slain
The Lamb of God, and the lambs, died at the same moment.

Christ is our Passover (as per paul).
Christ said , (at the Last Supper) eat this bread , which is My Body (the Passover, in the NT sense).

dennis777

Your days are wrong... but I suppose you know that you are not in agreement with orthodox Christiainty.

In orthodox Christianity, the lambs are slaughtered Friday at 3PM. Same time that Christ God died on the cross.

Forgive me...

 

[stumpjumper]

Your days are wrong... but I suppose you know that you are not in agreement with orthodox Christiainty.

Yes. His days of the week are wrong but there actually are no days of the week in the Gospel accounts. It simply states the day before Passover in John and on passover in Mark...

Still not sure what the point of the thread is though

 

[Splayd]

What's with the objections at examining the details???

I agree that we shouldn't get lost in the details. I agree that we shouldn't lose focus of the big picture and the overall points when examining details... BUT there can also be found great riches when we dig deeper into the details. When we parallel the whole preparation and keeping of Passover through to their next festival with the whole account of Jesus arrival to Jerusalem through to Pentecost and there's a wealth of truth to be found.

Details are only a problem when they become an obstacle and they only become an obstacle if we've missed something, in which case it's best just to hand it over to God and say "I'll just trust you on that."

 

[stumpjumper]

Details are only a problem when they become an obstacle and they only become an obstacle if we've missed something, in which case it's best just to hand it over to God and say "I'll just trust you on that."

Indeed I guess that is true...

I find that the symbolic dating of the last supper as the day before passover in John is an important detail in that Jesus then is the Passover lamb because he was crucified on Passover...

Mark has the last supper on passover as the focus of his Gospel was not neccesarily as soteriologically centered...

The problem is, though, that the details become either a foundation or a hindrance to faith for some when they should not be viewed in that manner...

 

[JimfromOhio]

Christ is more than a system, tradition, ritual or belief.

 

[stumpjumper]

Christ is more than a system, tradition, ritual or belief.

Amen!

 

[tapero]

The op question immediately brought to mind the following scripture:

Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

I know it is not the same subject but I think that it has some application to the op. Just a thought.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The op question immediately brought to mind the following scripture:

Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

I know it is not the same subject but I think that it has some application to the op. Just a thought.

Actually, according to orthodox Christianity... it is the same subject.

Forgive me...

 

[ThreeAM]

John 13;28 Amplified Bible

But nobody RECLINING AT THE TABLE knew why He spoke to them, or what He meant by telling him this.

verse 30 Judas Iscariot went out into the night

Jesus and His disciples left the upper room, into the night,
Jesus was arrested in the garden of Gethsemene , in the NIGHT.

********

BUT!
According to the OT rules,
"Each one was to have his loins girt, to hold a staff in his hand, and to have shoes on his feet. He was to eat in haste, and it would seem that he was to stand during the meal."
As per peloubet's Bible dictionary.

And no-one was to leave the house , during the night. (The Destroying Angel was out there)

***********

My point is:
If the Last Supper was the (lamb-eating) Passover Meal, Jesus broke the Law of Moses.

He left the house in the night.
He washed the feet of the Israelites.
He didn't hold a staff in his hand.
He RECLINED at the table
Where is the lamb?
and the bitter herbs?


The Last Supper was on Wednesday nite
The crucifixicion was Thursday afternoon, at the same time as the lambs were slain
The Lamb of God, and the lambs, died at the same moment.

Christ is our Passover (as per paul).
Christ said , (at the Last Supper) eat this bread , which is My Body (the Passover, in the NT sense).

dennis777

The LORD'S Passover was a meal of Unleavened bread and wine and was eaten on Abib/Nisan 14th. The passover Lamb was slain in the afternoon of Abib/Nisan 14th a few hours before sundown. The Passover lamb was cooked and then eaten at the Feast of unleavened bread the evening of Abib/Nisan 15th.

If you read Jos 5 you will find the first time the Passover-Feast Of Unleavened bread-and First fruits were observed in Israel. This established the TYPE for the Ceremonial days. In Jos 5 you will see that they occured in the following sequence.

Abib/Nisan 14th Passover - Abib/Nisan 15th Feast of Unleavened Bread - Abib/Nisan 16th Feast of Unleavened bread.

The proper sequence is Abib/Nisan 14th Passover / Crucifixion - Abib/Nisan 15th Feast of Unleavened Bread - Abib/Nisan 16th Resurrection/First Fruits

The last supper was held at the Lord's Passover meal of Bread and wine and was held on Thursday night the dark portion of Abib/Nisan 14th.