Arnold Murray's Teaching

[Truth Files]

Here is an independent research article exposing Arnold Murray as a false teacher for those who have an interest .... look for these these things embedded in the postings of christian message board forums .... those who post them will not normally identify themselves as being associates of this man's heretical teachings

Arnold Murray teaches that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth. In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the "Our" and "Us" (which has normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal.2:10 cf. Job 9:8; Isa.44:24) Murray says, "he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are.

Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?"-I told you, that God said "in Our image, Our likeness', the Elohim were standing there, they were from before." (Tape #146) We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.. (Kenites, Tape #436) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is "one man,...our Father," and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God "(sic) gots three offices he serves". (Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-14-91)

The biblical teaching concerning the nature of God is completely incompatible with Murray's modalism (a heresy taught by groups such as the Oneness Pentecostals). There is a distinction of Persons in the Godhead (Matt. 3:16,17; 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) who have personal relationships with one another which cannot be accounted for if they are all the exact same person as Murray teaches (Matt. 12:31,32; John 1:1-14; 8:16-18; 14:16,17,23; 15:26; 16:28; 17:1-5). The Trinity is one of the major tenets of the Christians faith. All the cults deviate from Christianity on this point, and Mr. Murray is no exception.

Additionally, God is not a man (Num.23:19; Hos. 11:9; John 4:24), and angels and humans are not gods (Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 4:8). Neither did man preexist with God. The Bible says that God created man on the earth, not in heaven (Gen.2:7; Zech. 12:1; 1 Cor. 14:47,48).

Christ, on the other hand, being the eternal Son of God who always existed with the Father (John 1:1; 17:5), is the only man who ever preexisted with the Father (John 3:13,31; 8:23; 1 Cor. 15:45-48). John the Baptist, who was born before Christ (Luke 1,2),said that Christ existed before he did (John 1:15,30). His statement can only be explained by affirming that Christ existed with God before his incarnation, and John the Baptist (or any other human) did not.

[continued here: Arnold Murray-The Shepherds Chapel]

 

[Gnarwhal]

Ah yes, Mr. Murray is an interesting character. I'm not sure if you touched on this but he also advocates the belief that Christ traveled to the British isles. I find him quite amusing because his theology is just so bizarre.

I work for a tv station that plays his show (he actually has his own network) from 1a-6a. Whenever I work a graveyard shift I have to weather his nonsense.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Ok... I skimmed through part of the things that you posted, and whoever this Murray guy is, he definitely doesn't look right.

Now, regarding the timing of the rapture... I'm not a follower of this man's teachings. I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, because it is the most logical based on an honest reading of all of the rapture verses. I've pointed this out to you several times, but you still won't listen.

But, I've also noticed a really awful idea that you purport, that those who don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are deceived and will be left behind or something. You need to drop this. Our rapture understanding has no bearing on our salvation. Also, the understanding of the virgins in Matthew 25 must be tweaked. The virgins who have no oil were never Christians in the first place.

 

[Truth Files]

"I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, because it is the most logical based on an honest reading of all of the rapture verses."

>So does Murray believe in a post-tribulation resurrection

>This he must do in order to support his MSOG tribulation dancing "man-child" theology

>I find that there are many who think they are saved .... and they are not for various reasons .... and these at the same time refute the Lord's intent to call today's church home just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving intransigent world

>A dangerous position for them to stay in .... but many will [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[NightHawkeye]

Here is an independent research article exposing Arnold Murray as a false teacher for those who have an interest .... look for these these things embedded in the postings of christian message board forums .... those who post them will not normally identify themselves as being associates of this man's heretical teachings ...

Truth Files, since you didn't provide attribution for the text you copied, I'll offer other links containing identical text, in whole or in part. All are considerably easier to read than your mono-font posting.

The Watchman Expositor: Shepherd's Chapel Profile

ARNOLD MURRAY AND THE SHEPHERD'S CHAPEL

The Heresy of Arnold Murray

Arnold Murray-The Shepherds Chapel


Apparently, there used to be a wiki page on Arnold Murray ... I stumbled across what's left of it now, as archived by Harvard law school.

Group 5 Dispute Results - Cyberlaw: Internet Points of Control Course Wiki

... it's interesting in it's own right.

Bon appetit.


.

 

[zeke37]

silly me, i thought his web site answered all of those questions/accusations under answer to critics and statement of faith

and all you have really done is advocate hear-say, since you do not watch him yourself.

but i will non the less go through your posts, point by point <edit>

 

[Truth Files]

"Bon appetit"

>I have read them all and have tracked the Shepherd's Chapel cult for years

>Other sites are available that link Murray's teaching with William Branham and George Warnock of the past MSOG movements ..... and with Herbert W. Armstrong and his British/Israelism

>You should check them out .... much is revealed about these pied pipers and their common rantings

>Astonishingly, all are the weavings of satanic infestation as he invades and corrupts the professing church through false prophets and false teachers

 

[NightHawkeye]

>You should check them out .... much is revealed about these pied pipers and their common rantings

Not my calling, Truth Files.

I have no reason to believe the "pied pipers" better aligned with scripture than many major religions.

Misguided perhaps, but it's not my calling to judge him, or you, for that failing.

I find simple truths most meaningful. Kinda hard to stray too far when the scripture's in black-and-white.

... even that seems hard for some to handle when it contradicts long-held beliefs.


.

 

[LovedofHim]

Ok... I skimmed through part of the things that you posted, and whoever this Murray guy is, he definitely doesn't look right.

Now, regarding the timing of the rapture... I'm not a follower of this man's teachings. I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, because it is the most logical based on an honest reading of all of the rapture verses. I've pointed this out to you several times, but you still won't listen.

But, I've also noticed a really awful idea that you purport, that those who don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are deceived and will be left behind or something. You need to drop this. Our rapture understanding has no bearing on our salvation. Also, the understanding of the virgins in Matthew 25 must be tweaked. The virgins who have no oil were never Christians in the first place.

ALL of the virgins were waiting for the Bridegroom. ALL of the virgins represent those who claim to be Christians.

Only those with enough oil (Spirit of God - born again) go in to the marriage. Those who aren't ready (without enough oil) are denied.

This is speaking of the gathering to Christ. Only those who are born of the Spirit go in. Those who aren't ready will endure wrath and either take the mark or die as martyrs during the 42 months when the beast is in control.

Those who have the Spirit of God, hear the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God does not contradict the Word of God.

If a Christian's beliefs do not line up with the Word of God, they are not hearing His Spirit.

 

[Truth Files]

"Not my calling, Truth Files."

>If you are going to be an effective teacher and witness to others in these last days you need to understand what is happening and why to some level of competence

>There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring him death and many are on the wrong road

>The warnings against following falsehood are prevalent in the scriptures and there is a reason for it

>As you progress in your knowledge of the scriptures, which should be any believer's passion to the greatest extent possible, you should broaden your reach so that you follow this good advice [2timothy 3:1-17]

>And you are right .... not all are called to deal with false teaching and false prophecy in conjunction with the study and correct rendering of the prophetic scriptures .... but some are .... and there are still a few around today

 

[zeke37]

Here is an independent research article exposing Arnold Murray as a false teacher for those who have an interest .... look for these these things embedded in the postings of christian message board forums .... those who post them will not normally identify themselves as being associates of this man's heretical teachings

Arnold Murray teaches that men were once gods who existed prior to living on the earth.

Murray teaches that we all pre-existed in an age before flesh and blood.
God's children living in another age....as spiritual beings.

as for "gods"...

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

In Genesis 1:26 when referring to the "Our" and "Us" (which has normally been understood to mean the Persons of the Trinity: Mal.2:10 cf. Job 9:8; Isa.44:24) Murray says, "he spoke to the Elohim, meaning God and his children, let us make that man in our image, which is to say make it look in the likeness that we are.

and?

Heb1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Do you appear as your soul appeared in the world that was?"-I told you, that God said "in Our image, Our likeness', the Elohim were standing there, they were from before." (Tape #146) We always were with Him [God] until you were born into this earth.. (Kenites, Tape #436) Similar to the cultic teaching of the Mormons, Murray declares that God is "one man,...our Father," and like the Oneness Pentecostals, God "(sic) gots three offices he serves". (Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-14-91)

Mr. Murray states publicly that he believes and teaches the Trinity.
your definition of Trinity might be different than another persons.

The biblical teaching concerning the nature of God is completely incompatible with Murray's modalism (a heresy taught by groups such as the Oneness Pentecostals). There is a distinction of Persons in the Godhead (Matt. 3:16,17; 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14) who have personal relationships with one another which cannot be accounted for if they are all the exact same person as Murray teaches (Matt. 12:31,32; John 1:1-14; 8:16-18; 14:16,17,23; 15:26; 16:28; 17:1-5). The Trinity is one of the major tenets of the Christians faith. All the cults deviate from Christianity on this point, and Mr. Murray is no exception.

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

not to mention the first commandment.

Additionally, God is not a man (Num.23:19; Hos. 11:9; John 4:24),

No one is saying God is a man
not even Mr Murray, regardless of what some internet site says...
after all, i don't believe you because you say a thing...
infact, quite the opposite.

hearsay is hearsay

and angels and humans are not gods (Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 4:8).

semantics...

if God says we were little gods, then i'll believe him...
probably along the same lines as the greek "gods"

we are the angels.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Neither did man preexist with God.

yours is an ignorant opinion

The Bible says that God created man on the earth, not in heaven (Gen.2:7; Zech. 12:1; 1 Cor. 14:47,48).

the bible says the age that was, before Gen1:2,
became an indistinguishable ruin

the earth, much like all of us, needed to be baptized, and was in Gen1.

many other passages allude to the truth that we all existed before being human.

Satan got to many of "us' then, hence the reason and need for this flesh age.

Christ, on the other hand, being the eternal Son of God who always existed with the Father (John 1:1; 17:5), is the only man who ever preexisted with the Father (John 3:13,31; 8:23; 1 Cor. 15:45-48). John the Baptist, who was born before Christ (Luke 1,2),said that Christ existed before he did (John 1:15,30). His statement can only be explained by affirming that Christ existed with God before his incarnation, and John the Baptist (or any other human) did not.

not as humans...agreed.
but certainly as His children...and on earth
see Jer4, as this is NOT the flood of Noah's day.

22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
30And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
31For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Mr. Murray teaches Anglo-Israelism which believes that Anglo-Saxons are the chosen race,

nope...nothing about a chosen race...

and America and Great Britain are the lost tribes of the children of Israel.

nope again...
America and Britian are represented by the descendants of Joseph...
many other tribes are scattered besides these 2 tribes.

Murray claims that the northern ten tribes of Israel are "the same tribes that later went north and populated Europe and North America". (The Shepherd's Chapel newsletter #148, 2-91).

absolutely, along with countless millions of believers who believe the same.

According to the theology of Anglo-Israelism, other races are inferior to whites, and usually the blacks and Jewish race are particularly stigmatized. Murray, on the other hand, says that he respects blacks and other races.

Murray respects all races...and is not racist in the least.
Anglo Israelism/BI does not state that whites are more favored at all...

that is a fringe belief of ignorant people...and there are many ignorant people who profess a love for God
and those ignorant people are available in all churches and denominations.
(even pre tribbers)

However, he believes these races were the 'Adam' created on the sixth day of creation in Genesis 1, while the Anglo-Saxons were 'another Adam' created on the eighth day of creation based on his interpretation of Genesis 2. Hence, there is a definite distinction between whites and non-whites.

not quite...
Murray also states that there were whites on the 6th day as well...
mankind is general in Gen1.
but that a specific branch was created on the 8th day that would lead to Messiah.

mankind (Gen1)vs the specific individual named man(Gen2).

Murray teaches that Satan's literal offspring through Cain, are likewise white.

Arnold Murray also promotes the literature of other Anglo-Israelism teachers. The Shepherd's Chapel Book List, for instance, offers materials by E. Raymond Capt and J. H. Allen.

E Raymond Capt is about the best Archeological Christian scientist you will ever come across..
His findings are truthful.

Another central teaching of Arnold Murray is the serpent seed doctrine. According to Murray, Eve had sex with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. In 2 Corinthians 11:3, Murray uses the word "beguiled" to mean "wholly seduced".

that is the direct definition of the word.

1818
exapataw
exapatao
ex-ap-at-ah'-o
from ek - ek 1537 and apataw - apatao 538; to seduce wholly:--beguile, deceive.

Hence, Murray claims the Serpent sexually seduced Eve who then became pregnant with Cain; the devil's literal offspring. Murray asserts that the offspring of Cain are called the "Kenites".

it is not Murray's claim, but the Bible's.
Here is the Strong's definition

7017
Qeyniy
kay-nee'
or Qiyniy (1 Chron. 2:55) {kee-nee'}; patronymic from 'Qayin' (7014); a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin:--Kenite.

and here is Qayin

7014
Qayin
kah'-yin
the same as 'qayin' (7013) (with a play upon the affinity to 'qanah' (7069)); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe:--Cain, Kenite(-s).

He also states that the Kenites are not a race, "but a hybrid". (Genesis 1:1-6:22, tape #146) He thus seems to implicitly consider them to be less than human.

Mr Murray claims that anyone, including Kenites, can come to the Lord Jesus...

Mr. Murray claims that many of the Kenites are Jewish!

Mr Murray claims nothing of the sort.

Based upon the "creed" of the Shepherd's Chapel, Murray states, "We believe in an existing Satan... who has a people who will not hear God (John 8:44-47)". (Our Statement of Faith, p.2) In John 8:44-47, the context clearly states that these people who are the "children of the devil" are Jews (8:31-58).'

do you think all people hear God?
and you (and your source) are mistaken above...again.
the children of the Devil are NOT Jews, and Mr Murray knows this just fine.

Mr Murray calls those from Judah, our Brother.
but there are those that claim to be Jews and are not...
they are identified in scripture as scribes, in 1Chr2:55,
and Mr Murray and a whole bunch of other scholars believe that they were the ones directly responsible for murdering Christ...
fulfilling in part, the Gen3's prophesy.

Hence, Murray believes that Jesus is referring to these particular Jews as the literal offspring of Satan. Regarding the Jews he writes, "Now, who stands in Jerusalem today?.. the sons of Cain or those who will not accept Jesus Christ.. the Kenites, that founded a new nation starting in 1948."

Yes, I am aware of his belief on this...
I think he believes the tribe of Judah settled Germany.

(The Shepherd's Bible, Commentary by Arnold Murray, 1979) He calls them "scum", and obviously makes the racial Jewish businessman remark when he states, "If you want to get a Kenite upset, bother his money table". (Parable of the Fig Tree, Tape #445)

could be...that was 30 years ago....
all preachers should grow in 30 years.

and what would you call those who
claim to be Jews but are really of the synagogue of Satan?
your buddy? pal? God's chosen?

 

[zeke37]

Murray connects these Jews with Cain by Christ's comment in John 8:44 that their father was a "murderer from the beginning.. To affirm these Jews as the offspring of Cain (i.e., the Kenites), Murray refers to Cain's murder of Abel in Genesis 4.

and? was he not the first murdered?

0ne can only conclude that Mr. Murray has made statements that label him as a white supremacist.

some do label him that way, unwarrented, as you are now!

He might tell colored people to be proud of who they are, but then again, so do some white supremacists.

there are different races..deal with it...
no one is better than another...
and Murray would be the first to tell you that...

The real questions the followers of Arnold Murray need to ask are: Does Arnold Murray think that non-whites are equal to whites in every respect?

of course

Does he approve of interracial Christian marriages like the Bible does? (Gen. 16; Num. 12 cL, Gen. 10:6 ~ Amos 9:7; Song of Sol. 1:5-7 cf., 3:7-11; 1 Cor. 7:39; Gal. 3:28 [note: The only type of marriage the Bible forbids is one between believer and nonbeliever: Ex. 34:14-16; 1 Cor. 7:39; 2 Cor. 6:14])

actually the bible states that you will encounter troubles if you mix race...
and the bible is pretty clear about the Israelites staying/marrying within their own race....

the problem was that the other races did not believe in God...
and the spouse might lead them to worship other gods as with Solomon

today, that is not an issue, as Christianity is in basically every country/race.

but the world will still give you grief.

Would Mr. Murray let a black or a Christian of Jewish ancestry preach at his church-perhaps even take it over if he were to pass away?

He has sons for that, and he is not racist. deal with it.

What does Murray think about the Jewish holocaust in World War II?

he's a vet...and fought for your right to worship God as you see fit

what do you think he thinks?

What does he think about the Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan? These types of questions need to be addressed to Arnold Murray.

you are so ignorant...shame on you

The creation of man in Genesis 1 and 2 should not be interpreted as two separate Adams.

the Hebrew disagrees with you, as one ha a preposition and one does not...
one is general and one is specific...

Just like the Esau of Genesis 36:1-37:1 should not be considered a different Esau from the one mentioned in Genesis 25:1235:29 (cf. 1 Chron. 1:38-42), so the Adam mentioned in Genesis 1:1-2:3 should not be considered a different Adam than the one mentioned in Genesis 2:4-4:26.

ignorance.

adam in Gen1 is general...mankind...no preposition.
the adam in Gen2 is specific and has a preposition..and individual.

mankind was created in Gen1, on the 6th day.
Adam who is in the garden of Eden, is formed after the 7th day of rest...call it the 8th day if ya wanna.

Genesis 1:1-2:3 simply focuses on the development of heaven and earth, while Genesis 2:4-4:26 focuses on the development of man. If Murray were consistent, he would have to say there must be a *third* Adam mentioned in Genesis 5:1,2 that is different from the previous two Adams!

more ignorance. the orders are different...Gen2 is not a retelling of Gen1

The Anglo-Israelism theory has been refuted, and virtually no reputable scholar or historian today would promote it.

more ignorance, and i see you now speak for MOST ALL reputable scholars now!
lol

The Assyrian and Babylonian captivities in 722 B.C. and 586 B.C. forever ended the schism between Judah and Israel. From about that time on, the terms "Jew" and "Israelite" were used interchangeably.

maybe to you. but that proves your lack of biblical intelligence...
for OT prophesy adequately proves that you are incorrect...
prophesy using both Israel and Judah is even available in the exact same chapter of the Bible

Further, there is no sufficient evidence that the Scythians (the supposed missing link between Israel and Great Britain) were ever connected with the ten tribes of Israel. By comparing the etymologies of English words from the most respected English dictionary (Oxford English Dictionary), there is simply no sufficient evidence to support any connection between the Anglo-Saxon and Hebrew tongues.

have you heard of Glastonbury?
While you might not believe him, E Raymond Capt proves you incorrect.

The Old Testament also uses the children of Judah and the ten tribes of Israel together after the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity in 536 AD. (Ezra 2:70; 6:17; 7:6-15; Neh. 7:73; 12:44-47; Zech. 1:19: 8:13; 10:6; cf. 2 Chron. 11:3-17; 15 9). Many of these texts are the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37:15-25 (cf. Jer. 31:27; 50:40).

not all the 10 tribes...but a sparse few individuals.
the vast majority did not return...
their descendants live on today.

In the New Testament the Jews and the ten tribes of Israel are mentioned many times without any distinction made between them (e.g., Matt. 10:5,6; 15:24; Luke 2:36; 22:30; Acts 2:14,22,23,36; James 1:1; Rev. 7:4-8). Both Jesus and Paul were Jews (Matt. 27:11 cf. Rom. 9:1-4; Acts 21:39 cL, Rom. 11:1-2).

Israel was first, through Judah and the sparse few of the other tribes that returned after the captivity

IOW, anyone that professed YHVH...

not to the gentiles...yet.


as for both Jesus and Paul being Jews,
Jesus was half Judahian and half a Levite,
living under Jewery

Paul was a Benjaminite, living under Jewery

but still, the vastest amount of the descendants of the scattered tribes still exist and became someone...

i agree with BI that states they settled europe and eventually the America's.

Since all New Testament Christians are God's chosen people, racial distinctions no longer matter (John 1:12-13, Acts 10:34; 17:26 cf. Gen. 3:20 Rom. 8:14; 1 Pet.2:9; Col. 3:11; Gal.3:28; Rev. 5 9,10).

racial distinction must matter, because God is going to keep ALL His promises, even to the race of Israel (us Christians scattered abroad)

All humanity has sinned (Rom. 3:23; 5:12-20), thus, as William H. Baker states, The so-called races must be equal, because sin is what produces undesirable traits, not race. (Moody Monthly, Equal Before God,. p.19, 1-87).

no one is saying that today's races are not equal.

The Jews of John 8:44 are not Kenites. Jesus was simply denouncing these particular Jews for their unbelief-as he and his apostles would denounce anyone as a child of the devil, Jew or Gentile, who refused to believe (Matt. 16:23; Eph. 2:1-3,11; 3:1; 1 John 3:9,10).

your opinion. The Bible calls them children of the devil.

Christ was calling them children of the devil because of what they believed, not because of who they were.

maybe both. seems funny that Jesus went into detail about Satan and Cain, if He was not being literal.

Additionally, Jesus was not making a blanket judgment on all or even most Jews, but only this small group of Jews because they intended to kill him (John 8:40,44,58,59).

agreed...Jesus was specifically speaking to these "scribes".
they are elsewhere called vagabond jews.

Furthermore, it is not Cain who is the murderer in John 8:44, for Jesus says it is literally the devil who is the murderer. The murder mentioned in John 8:44 is not Cain's murder of Abel, but the devil causing death to occur upon all the human race when he instigated Adam and Eve to sin (Gen.2:17; 3:14,19; Rom.6:12).

personally I agree..but he might have incited Cain to murder,
as it was in his heart, that of his father the devil's will...

Anyone, whether Jew or Gentile (including Anglo-Saxons), are considered Satan's children if they refuse to believe in Christ (Gen. 3:15; Matt. 13:3643). This Seed of the Serpents is not Cain and his literal offspring, but only a figurative offspring.

i disagree...but like all physical beginnings, there are spiritual lessons,
which IMO this is one.

while I believe there are literal descendants of the devil
i also know that there are spiritual descendants as well.

In other words, only those people (regardless of what race they belong to) who do not believe the gospel are the children of Satan because they follow their own sinful tendencies instead of accepting Christ (Matt. i6:23; John 6:70,71; Acts 5:3; 13:4-10; Rom. 5:12-19; 8:5-6; Eph. 2:1,2; 1 John 3:4-10).

agreed, except for the kenites...our physical beginning to this spiritual end.

If there were any descendants of Cain (which there isn't), they could receive salvation too, because a number of people from all nationalities, tongues, tribes, and races will serve Christ (Rev. 5:9,10) just like a number of people from all races will serve Satan (Rev. 13:5-8).

and Mr Murray believes this to be true.

Furthermore, the Kenites mentioned in Jeremiah 35 and 1 Chronicles 2:55 are not the children of the Cain of Genesis 4.

sure they are.

First of all, Scripture does not say that the Kenites are the children of the same Cain who slew Abel.

well, that is the definition of the word...i posted it above already.
take a look.

Second, simply because both terms come from the same Hebrew word does not mean that all, some, or any Kenites are the descendants of the Cain who slew Abel. Apparently, "Cain" was a common name just like "Zechariah".

says who? not the bible!

The Bible records at least 33 men by the name of Zechariah, and not all of them were related (e.g., there is no relationship between these men who were all named Zachariah: 1 Chron. 5:7; 24:25; 2 Chron. 21:2; 2 Kings 14:29).

how many are named Cain in the Bible? 1?

Therefore, individuals can be called the descendants of Cain, but the Cain they are related to was not the same Cain who slew Abel in Genesis 4 (see for instance, the different Kenites mentioned in Gen. 5:12; Num. 24:21,22; Judges 1:16, and 1 Sam. 15:6).

you can believe what you want to I guess...
since only one Cain is Biblical, I'll stick with that truth...
and Jesus' words in John 8 only strengthen that position

Third, some Kenites do acts of righteousness, and Jonadab the Rechabite could be considered a righteous man of God (1 Sam.15:6; 2 Kings 10:15,16,23,24; Jer. 35:12-16). It would be impossible for them to be commended for their righteousness by both God and the Israelites if they were "children of the devil".

sometimes a person is called a nationality, when he is not...but only lives there

it happens quite often in the Bible.


if a member of one of the northern tribes came back to the promised land, after the captivity was over,
since only Judah existed, as the northern kingdom was dispersed....
then that person would take on the name Jew, even though they were not really a Jew by birth

so there is example of a person being called a kenite, when we can prove their lineage and that they were just living where the kenites lived...
as with Moses' father in law

anyway...so far, you and your sources are incredibly wrong...

 

[zeke37]

Arnold Murray's teaching continued .....

Furthermore, the whole doctrine of the serpent seed is flawed because nowhere in Scripture does it ever say word for word that Eve actually had sex with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. In 2 Corinthians 11:3 the word for "beguiled" (exanatao), should be rendered "wholly deceived" Just because Eve was fully deceived does not mean that she literally had sex with the Serpent.

Gen3 teaches that. 2Cor11 expounds on it, as does John 8

In other passages where this same Greek word is used, it is never connected with sex. In fact, if it were connected with sex, we would run into ridiculous conclusions like people literally having sex with their own minds (Rom. 16:18; cf., 1 Cor.3:18)1

well, ones mind can be seduced...
so can ones body...
so can ones spirituality...

perhaps you should start a thread about it in the General Theology section.

Also if Eve had to hide her nakedness because of her sex with the Serpent, we would have to conclude that Adam also had sex with the serpent (Gen. 3:6,7).

i don't but some do.

i conclude that Satan the angel, showed Eve all about sex,
and that she in turn showed Adam.

it's about shame...they now knew they were naked...and covered their genitalia

It was out of a sexual relationship with Adam, not the Serpent, that Eve became impregnated with Cain.

many disagree with you, as does Jesus.

The New International Version correctly renders Genesis 4:1,2: Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain."

good for it...correct IYO...certainly not mine.

Satan lay-ed with her first, and after that, then she knows adam...
then a ":" (semi-colon)
and then she gave birth to Cain.

so, she has sex with Satan first, and then Adam,
and then the declaration is made that God has given her a little man.

this chapter is surely a highly debated one.

There is also no evidence that Abel was the fraternal twin of Cain.

really? to continue in labor means what then?

3254
yacaph
yaw-saf'
a primitive root; to add or augment (often adverbial, to continue to do a thing):--add, X again, X any more, X cease, X come more, + conceive again, continue, exceed, X further, X gather together, get more, give more-over, X henceforth, increase (more and more), join, X longer (bring, do, make, much, put), X (the, much, yet) more (and more), proceed (further), prolong, put, be (strong-) er, X yet, yield.

The "again" of Genesis 4:2 does not indicate that Eve gave birth to Abel right after (whether a few minutes, hours, or days) she gave birth to Cain. Several years may have passed before Eve "bore again" by giving birth to Cain's brother Abel.

she continued in Labor...

Not to mention, Josephus writes that Cam was begotten by both Adam and Eve (Antiquities 1.2:1). Finally, even if Cain were the literal offspring of Satan, no descendent of Cain survived the flood of Noah.

good for him...a non believer, that you think was inspired?

In order to support his view that the Kenites survived the flood, Murray misinterprets Genesis 6:7. Instead of adhering to the plain meaning of the text in which God says that he will wipe out all mankind, Murray claims that this phrase is a figure of speech which means that he'll wipe out "more or less" everything. (Tape #146) According to Murray, it cannot mean that God would wipe out absolutely everyone, because Noah and his family survived the flood.

as do the other races....as they exist today.
Murray says that God did not wipe out all mankind,
but only all adamkind with the exception of Noah and his family

the flood was localized in all probability, to the land of the adamic valley

2 of Noah's son's descendants become nations of their own
and 1 mixes in with other nations.

other nations survived the flood.

In the same context, however, the Bible states that the only exception to this flood would be Noah and his family because Noah was a righteous man (Gen. 6:8-9). All the rest of humanity would be completely wiped out (cL 7:19-23).

not all of humanity, but all that had "mixed" with the seed of the sons of God.

God told Noah the reason why He would destroy all humans was because mankind had become wicked (6:10-13). If the purpose of the flood was to wipe out sin, then why would God allow some of the "wicked Kenites" to survive? The only logical explanation is to believe that God wiped out all mankind, including all the Kenites.

obviously not, as they are mentioned in scripture after the flood.

Additionally, in Genesis 9:11 God promises Noah that He would never again destroy all flesh by means of a flood.

and?

But if this flood were merely a local community flood which did not even reach the people of the land of Nod, as Murray claims, then God must have lied because we still have had hundreds of local floods over the years.

huh? and? God was speaking of a specific people.
He formed Adam after mankind, for a reason...to lead to Christ

the wiping out of that specific line, was a major thing dude!

The only way to affirm that God kept His promise is to believe that this flood universally destroyed all human life. Regardless of whether one believes that the flood of Noah covered the entire earth, or only a portion of it, the evidence is clear that this flood destroyed all mankind except for one family. Other cultures testify to this as well.

absolutely false

*In order to escape this evidence, Murray makes the assertion that some Kenites actually managed to get on board of Noah's ark. Since Noah took Two of every flesh,. Murray concludes that he also took two Kenites on board! (Kenites, Tape #436).

he leaves it open as a possibility, as they are flesh,
and it is at least 2 male and female of every flesh that was aboard the arc.
(7 pairs for clean flesh)

The Bible, however, clearly affirms that Noah, his wife, and his three sons and their wives were the only humans who survived the flood (Gen.6:18; 9:18,19; 2 Pet.2:5).

in that land, that is true...and that was what God is addressing. The Adamics

In order to be true to Scripture Murray must either conclude that absolutely no Kenites survived the flood, or admit that he is a racist for believing the Kenites cannot really be considered human. He appears to hold the latter by saying the Kenites are not a race, "but a hybrid". (Tape #146)

not true. All promises that are for all of us, hold true to them as well.
Murray states this.

Nevertheless, even if the Kenites were less than human, they still committed sin according to Murray. And as mentioned earlier, the purpose of the flood was to wipe out sin and wickedness. If any Kenite survived the flood, then God failed to achieve His purpose.

Noah was pure in his generations...that does not make him sinless.

fact is, that we have the races today,
and also that the kenites are mentioned after the flood,
so the races and the kenites survived the flood enough to carry on their race.

that is fact.

you can believe what ever you wanna believe about all men descending from Noah

but i'd bet that the old cultures like China would differ with you, as their history is older than Adam.

Thus, either God made a mistake, or Arnold Murray made a mistake. Since God is perfect, and Murray isn't, we must conclude that Murray is wrong, God is right, and there are no Kenites alive today.

lol...I guess there were no Kenites in 1Chr2:55 then....that was long after the flood.

and that is when they snuck in and were numbered under Judah....
and note that the scribes of Judah were the real bad guys with regards to Jesus' murder.

they effectively pretend to be Jews, but are of the synagogue of Satan.
(Smyrna/Philadelphia)

Most of Arnold Murray's heretical teaching comes from a subtle misinterpreting of Scripture. He commonly manipulates the original Greek and Hebrew languages, abuses the use of symbols and numerics, interprets Scripture out of context, and makes use of selective citations.

BY emphasizing to his audience that he has the correct, almost "secret" meaning of the text that most scholars have ignored or overlooked, Murray can get a passage of Scripture to mean almost anything he desires it to. He claims that the majority of Christians have been wrong from the beginning regarding their understanding of Scripture. (Parable of the Fig Tree, tape #445)

well, the study material that he uses are readily available to the masses...
and what he teaches best, is the ability to learn for yourself what is really taught in scripture,
by using the Strong's Concordance and the Green's Interlinear,

the Companion Bible is the bible version that he advocates the most...a 1911 printing of a KJV study bible

Mr. Murray commonly uses King James English instead of examining the original languages whenever the English translation supports his view-but when it contradicts his view, he will attempt to support his view by means of the original languages.

wow...what a crock! Mr Murray teaches to always go back to the original.

It should be noted that the original languages are not necessarily the most important aspect of interpreting Scripture, and numerics and symbols are of little value. The simple reading of a text within its proper context, and comparing this in light of all biblical passages that relate to that text remains the most important principle of interpreting Scripture.

and?

Murray does very little of this. His usual method is to let either the root meaning of a particular word, or figurative language and symbols dictate what the text means while ignoring the context and passages that contradict his claims. We encourage the followers of Arnold Murray to do their own study of the Scriptures without Murray's aid. By applying sound principles of interpretation, we are confident they will come up with a completely different view than that of Mr. Murray.

well, i have been doing that for years now, and he is still the best biblical teacher that i have ever heard

i do not agree with him on everything, but 99% is pretty close

he commonly says, "don't believe this man or any other man if what he says differs from the Word of God"

 

[zeke37]

Mr. Murray also emphasizes, and takes dogmatic stands on issues over which Christians can legitimately disagree. One such case pertains to the rapture of the church.

absolutely

According to Murray, Christians who believe in the rapture are cultic, and do not have God's seal upon them.

many of Murray's students were once pre tribbers

if pre trib is incorrect, then those that believe in pretrib do not have the truth.
that is the seal that he is speaking of...which relates to the understanding of the seals in Rev

They will be deceived by Satan during the end times. "Most go along with this cult that teaches the rapture that didn't start till 1830, but it's growing into the largest cult in the worlds". (The Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired ~16-91)

truth!

"When this false christ stands in the holy place performing in the sight of Christians, the pretribulation rapture Christian shall think it is Christ come to rapture them away". (Our Statement of Faith, p.2)

i agree that they will be the easiest to deceive.
they already believe that Christ comes first.

Murray's statement, however, is fallacious. Christianity has always believed in a literal rapture by which the saints would be transformed and removed from this earth to meet Christ in the air, not on the earth.

no, Christians have not always believed that.
the pre tribulation removal from the planet theory is a very recent movement

Since the Antichrist (who will live on the earth, not in the air) will not be able to literally transform their bodies nor cause them to disappear from the earth, there is simply no way Christians will follow such a man, nor believe he is the Christ who has come to rapture them away.

i hope that is true...i hope that you will hold to that.
but i fear that most pre tribbers will not, because of his lies/appearance
many Christians shall worship him as God.

It is true that followers of the Antichrist will be strongly deluded, but this delusion is caused by the miracles he and the false prophet perform (2 Thes. 2:9; Rev. 13:1115; 16:13,14; 19:20).

he is the false prophet, and he will cause many to become apostate
as they worship him,
thinking he is Jesus Christ returned...as he convinces many that
he is getting everyone invited, ready for the rapture

But Christians already know that the Antichrist will attempt to delude people by using spectacular miracles. It is virtually inconceivable, then, to think that any believers would follow a man they know fits the criteria of the Antichrist.

unless they "think" he is Jesus Christ returned...

Mr. Murray bases much of his anti-rapture claim on Dave MacPherson's research. He claimed that the pretribulation rapture came from a personal revelation of a young girl named Margaret Macdonald in 1830.

it did!

Actually, there is no hard evidence that J.N. Darby, the pretribulatlon advocate of the 19th century, was influenced by Margaret Macdonald. Second, even if Darby was influenced by Macdonald, this does not necessarily mean that his view was false. As long as he can adequately support his position by Scripture, it does not matter who influenced him.

as long as...but he cannot!

Regardless of when the rapture will occur, the fact remains there will be a rapture or "catching away" of the saints to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thee. 4:16,17; 1 Cor.15:52; possibly Rev.11:12; 12:5). If Murray believes there will be no rapture (catching away) of the saints, he is being both unbiblical and setting himself against the historic understanding of the Christian church.

he believes in the gathering, to say otherwise is a lie.

he does not think anyone goes "up" anywhere, as that is not actually written in the Greek manuscripts.

seized is written...

he teaches, and i agree, that Christ comes here and lands here.

he brings with Him from heaven, the dead believers....

He raises them back to life on earth again, first,

and changes the faithful alive to be like them,

then gathers the two groups of first fruits together

What really sets Arnold Murray apart is his claim to be God's exclusive messenger for this era.

Murray has never claimed that,
and has a rebuttal on his website for just that exact same accusation
Now you also bear false witness against him.

Although he says that not all Christians are deceived, he nevertheless ostracizes all orthodox denominations as being deceived by his comments.

all major denominations have some dogma that i do not agree with personally...
why should others be chastised for thinking the same?

actually, I'm sure that each denom thinks that about each other denom.
hence their differences. right?

First, all teachers who do not hold to a literal offspring of God and Satan (i.e., the serpent seed doctrine), are considered by Murray as "nothing but a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites blinded by what sounds good to men's ears". (Tape #436)

incredibly inaccurate...an outright lie
If a person does not accept his teaching on the Serpent Seed,
then Murray asks that they store it on a shelf in their minds
until perhaps some other info comes into play that causes them to take it down and shake the dust off...

Second, Christians who believe in a literal six day creation are deceived and many are going to hell (i.e., all or most fundamentalists). "Only an idiot will stand and argue...such a thing

it discredits us as Christians, to teach that the earth is only app 6000 years old.

the Bible does not teach that.
and non believers will think you are nuts.

no such belief will send one to hell and Murray does not teach that it would.

Third, Christians who believe in the rapture, speak in tongues, or celebrate Easter are deceived (that includes all major branches of Christianity: Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox!) "Do we know anyone deceived by any of Satan's lies? Do we believe in rapture, or babbling, or Easter, etc.? .. To flirt with doctrines, beliefs, and traditions that are contrary to what Christ taught endangers the pureness of your soul...Recognize the false from the true so you may come to the wedding, worthy and accountable to be accepted." (The Shepherd's Chapel Newsletter #126, 4-89)

that is true.
pre trib, tongues and changing Passover to Easter is exactly the definition of deceived.

Fourth, he claims that the majority of Christians have been "wrong since the beginning" (i.e., historic orthodox Christianity). (Parable of the Fig Tree, Ta,pe #445)

most have, unless you disagree because you believe in Catholicism or Orthodox teaching i guess...

but God always leaves a remnant that keeps the truth alive

Ultimately, Mr. Murray subtly pressures his listeners to choose between his "prophetic word", or "the doctrine of the Pharisees" of orthodox Christianity. "But, deep down in your souls when you must make the decision to stand for your Father or the traditions of man, it can separate you from friends and loved ones." (Newsletter #129, 6-89)

isn't that true?
would you choose your friends or family over the truth of the Word?

isn't that spelled out for us in the Olivette prophesy?
family members turning on one another? yep!

In defiance of Acts 1:7, Mr. Murray set an end time date by claiming that the Antichrist would appear by 1981. This prediction, of course turned out to be false. "Lucifer was taken to the pit...Know from the 2nd chapter of 2 Thessalonians that he shall soon return. The Book of Daniel very clearly states that it shall happen before the year 1981, if you have any understanding at all of the wisdom of the elect in the last days" (Seed of the Serpent, version taped in 1979)

Murray uses a biblical formula found in Daniel to pin point specific areas of interest, not the Lord's return

and the 1981 date was one of those...

others who oppose him online have also claimed that he made an outright prophesy about 1981
but have never shown proof.

Yet, in spite of his prejudices, false doctrine, and false prophecies, he states, "I am a servant of the living God that carries the end time message, and it's either time to wake up now, or go down with your boat, friend". (The Shepherd's Chapel Questions and Answers period, aired 5-16-91)

and?

Based on the above evidence, by redefining the nature of God, Arnold Murray denies the Trinity and the eternal sonship of Christ.

that is a lie, as he does no such thing.

As this statement has demonstrated, his views imply a subtle racism.

absolutely not... God created all races and He said it was all good!
Murray repeatedly teaches this...
to say or imply he is racist is a lie

He also teaches the distorted gospel of Anglo-Israelism,

he is far from alone in that, and it is the correct view.

the serpent seed doctrine,

true, but not by any means "new"...ever heard of original sin?

and other heretical doctrines.

i guess we should all still be Catholic then....

He uses the original languages,

what a sin that is....lol

numerics

,

and you think God does not use numbers in His teachings?

symbols, and figures of speech whenever they can be manipulated to support his view, but ignores, or redefines them if they happen to contradict him.

prove it

His antagonistic attitude towards those who disagree with him is blatantly evident.

so is the attitude of most here that do not agree with each other,
yourself included,
as your negative attitude most prominently shows through

Christians should stay far away from his ministry and teachings.

I was watching the Shepherd's Chapel on TV when the Lord came into my heart and Saved me...

i guess it depends on your prospective....


what has been shown here against him, by you,
is nothing more than unwarranted accusation and hearsay and outright lies.

 

[zeke37]

ALL of the virgins were waiting for the Bridegroom. ALL of the virgins represent those who claim to be Christians.

actually Jen, they are all Christians,
because they are all brides to be, waiting for Christ
the fact that they are all waiting for Him, is the proof that they are all true believers

Only those with enough oil (Spirit of God - born again) go in to the marriage. Those who aren't ready (without enough oil) are denied.

false...only by the Holy Spirit, can one call Christ Lord...

since these are obviously waiting for Him, they have called Him Lord, correct?
so the oil cannot represent the Holy Spirit because they all have the Holy Spirit to be waiting for Him at all.
right?


it is truth. those who are not sealed with truth don't get in.

This is speaking of the gathering to Christ. Only those who are born of the Spirit go in. Those who aren't ready will endure wrath and either take the mark or die as martyrs during the 42 months when the beast is in control.

false again..see above for one...
and if they all either die or take the mark, then who is left for Christ to gather? lol.

Those who have the Spirit of God, hear the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God does not contradict the Word of God.

If a Christian's beliefs do not line up with the Word of God, they are not hearing His Spirit.

imagine that....almost every one of us here do not agree with each other,
except for possibly the Shepherd's Chapel folks...

go figure!



I wonder who amongst us does not hear Him?

 

[NightHawkeye]

"Not my calling, Truth Files."

>If you are going to be an effective teacher and witness to others in these last days you need to understand what is happening and why to some level of competence

>There is a way that seems right to a man that will only bring him death and many are on the wrong road

>The warnings against following falsehood are prevalent in the scriptures and there is a reason for it

>As you progress in your knowledge of the scriptures, which should be any believer's passion to the greatest extent possible, you should broaden your reach so that you follow this good advice [2timothy 3:1-17]

>And you are right .... not all are called to deal with false teaching and false prophecy in conjunction with the study and correct rendering of the prophetic scriptures .... but some are .... and there are still a few around today

I think the Roman Catholic Church also follows some very mis-guided philosophies, Truth Files.

I feel no compelling desire to delve deeper into Catholicism though ... or to testify against them.

The commandments are simple. The teachings of Jesus Christ are likewise simple. I can speak truth without demonizing. That is the essence of Christianity. The very first message to the seven churches in Revelation begins thusly:

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
​

And concludes ...

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
​

There may be many things about which I have no control. However, being truthful in my endeavors is one thing about which I do have control. We all do. Scripture is clear about that:

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. 10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
​

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

"I believe in a post-tribulation rapture, because it is the most logical based on an honest reading of all of the rapture verses."

>So does Murray believe in a post-tribulation resurrection

>This he must do in order to support his MSOG tribulation dancing "man-child" theology

>I find that there are many who think they are saved .... and they are not for various reasons .... and these at the same time refute the Lord's intent to call today's church home just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving intransigent world

>A dangerous position for them to stay in .... but many will [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

Your last two paragraphs are the things that I was talking about in my first post... Just because people disagree on the timing of the rapture isn't necessarily a sign that they aren't saved. You're also not being honest with Matthew 24:31... therefore I challenge you in this thread to look at Matthew 24:29-31, and post what you believe about that passage. That passage is a huge key in the understanding of a post-tribulation rapture. I also challenge you to relook at Matthew 25... the virgins without the oil, never had any oil to begin with... they're sham Christians. Never had salvation at all.

I don't know about you man.

 

[Truth Files]

"Your last two paragraphs are the things that I was talking about in my first post... Just because people disagree on the timing of the rapture isn't necessarily a sign that they aren't saved."

>The correct understanding of the timing of the Lord's "harpazo" action for His church is not necessary for salvation

>But the refutation of the correct understanding when discovered reflects potential for an unsaved condition just as the scriptures tell

 

[Truth Files]

"You're also not being honest with Matthew 24:31"

>The Word of the Lord is honest and can be understood

>This passage of scripture is the gathering of a believing remnant of the mortal elect of ethnic Israel who survive the tribulation period [Isaiah 11:11-12; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

"You're also not being honest with Matthew 24:31"

>The Word of the Lord is honest and can be understood

>This passage of scripture is the gathering of a believing remnant of the mortal elect of ethnic Israel who survive the tribulation period [Isaiah 11:11-12; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-36]

Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isa 27:13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Zec 13:8 In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive.
Zec 13:9 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Rom 11:34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
Rom 11:35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Alright, I understand what is said in these passages.

Now, let's look at all of the rapture passages...

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This says a there will be a loud trumpet call, and the angels will gather the elect together (i.e. those chosen for salvation).

Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Joh 14:4 And you know the way to where I am going."

Now I'm not totally sure how to interpret this verse in relation to the rapture... everything else points to an immediate coming back after we're taken up into the sky, transformed, given in marriage, and come back as part of the Lord's army. Perhaps what the Lord is saying is that He was going to prepare the way, as in die, and set things straight. Also, maybe quite literally based on the context of what He says here, when He comes again, He will gather us together, and thus we will be with Him right there, thus fulfilling "that where I am you may be also"...
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

This shows that we shall be raised at the last trumpet (i.e. look at Matthew 24 again)

1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Another sound of the trumpet... and also the coming of the Lord. This most definitely is not suggestive of a hidden or secret rapture. And it is true... we will always be forever with the Lord at that point.

2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Again, the coming of the Lord, and us being gathered together, then at the end of the 2nd verse, Paul references to the day of the Lord and assumes that our gathering is the day of the Lord.

Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

The only next appearance of the Lord is the second coming.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Read this completely: (double u double u double u) solagroup (dot ) org/articles/endtimes/et_0014 (dot) html

Rev 19:6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

I dunno about you, but this is the marriage of the bride and it is right as Jesus is coming back. It seems that we will be gathered, and then the heavens are opened and we'll immediately come back as part of His army

I'm going to make another thread based on this.