Are True Apostles Still in Existence Today

[Greg Merrill]

"If" some of the "spiritual gifts" have not ceased, even with the completion of the New Testament, and without speaking of the specific gift of "speaking in tongues" how should we receive the teaching that apostles are still in existence today as well? My understanding is that an apostle in Jesus time on earth, was one that was a "sent one" as a representative of God, that had a message (the verbal message of the gospel and the N.T.), who was also giving supernatural gifts (the gift of miracles, the gift of knowledge, the gift of healings, etc.) as credentials to hearers/observers that he was indeed a messenger of God. My aim in this thread is not to cause division, we already have that. My aim is to understand how knowledgable people of the Scriptures can hold the view that true apostles still exist today. God bless.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I would first have to determine if I agree with your definition of Apostle. You mentioned a few criteria, and without going to a lot of trouble, can you quote some scripture that backs up that criteria? To be clear, I tend to agree with your criteria, but have no scripture off the top of my head to back that.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The bishops of the Catholic Church are the successors of the apostles, so yes.

 

[Greg Merrill]

I would first have to determine if I agree with your definition of Apostle. You mentioned a few criteria, and without going to a lot of trouble, can you quote some scripture that backs up that criteria? To be clear, I tend to agree with your criteria, but have no scripture off the top of my head to back that.

You can use a concordance (Strong's preferably to get the meaning of the word "Apostle." Let me know if you need me to post what Strong's says here.) and a good Bible dictionary to get the definition of an Apostle. Scriptures that com to mind of the top of my head are Mark 3:14-19; Acts 1:16-17; 2 Corinthians 1:1 as well as chapters 10-13 where Paul defends his apostleship.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Then I can assume that your conclusion was drawn from ample research? If so, that's good enough for me, and I ask just to be sure that's the case.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The bishops of the Catholic Church are the successors of the apostles, so yes.

What miracles do they perform? Or is that not a requirement for Catholicism? (still trying to settle on some ground rules here

 

[Greg Merrill]

Then I can assume that your conclusion was drawn from ample research? If so, that's good enough for me, and I ask just to be sure that's the case.

Thanks for that confidence in my research, and I say this kindly my dear friend, do your own research.
Acts 17:11 It is nice to have men we can have confidence in and trust, and benefit by the results of their research they share, but we still should do some research ourselves. Romans 14:12 Wishing you will, and I appreciate you.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Thanks for that confidence in my research, and I say this kindly my dear friend, do your own research.
Acts 17:11 It is nice to have men we can have confidence in and trust, and benefit by the results of their research they share, but we still should do some research ourselves. Romans 14:12 Wishing you will, and I appreciate you.

Doing that now, right here.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

There are what were know as the 12 A postles and we are more like the D sciples. When Peter quoted scripture about Judas and said let another take his office he cast the lot and it came upon a guy who we never heard of again. The Lord chose Paul to take that office and these 12 were special and it is noted that in Rev 22 the new Jerusalem is noted.

¶
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The definition of apostle really means one who is sent out and today there are many apostles who fit this. The book of Rev also notes in the letters to the churches as a good thing

“I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;

Today many are using this title for themselves and we need to test them too. The apostles of Jesus day never took any glory or credit for anything. you see a guy like Benny Hinn and he reminds me of Baalam.
Balaam raised his eyes, and saw Israel encamped according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
3 Then he took up his oracle and said:
“The utterance of Balaam the son of Beor,
The utterance of the man whose eyes are opened,
4 The utterance of him who hears the words of God,
Who sees the vision of the Almighty,
Who falls down, with eyes wide open:

You see a false apostle seeks his own glory and points to his being special and important where the true apostles were bondslaves of Christ and spoke with an authority. The recorded writing of Paul Peter John are now scripture and the words of no man today can carry that weight unless he is quoting from the Bible.

 

[JingshenBianxi]

I've always asked God about this. I thought some years ago that I myself was an Apostle, but when I read how Paul defended his credentials I disqualified myself because I wasn't working any miracles. Paul said this is the mark of an Apostle.

If you're not working miracles then you're not an Apostle.

2 Corinthians 12:12 - The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Are there Apostles today? I don't know. I never seen one.
Is it possible?
I don't know..

The office of Apostles and Prophets have been the 2 that I've been seeking God on. The theology taught in the Incorporated Churches of Christ teach that those 2 do not exist anymore because the Bible is here so there is no more " revelations " to be had and the " perfect " has come via the Bible so everything that was done.." in part " is no longer done and or necessary.

I'm still seeking God on all of this, obviously. The more I seek God the more I lose trust in man and their " interpretations "

 

[Kenny'sID]

I've always asked God about this. I thought some years ago that I myself was an Apostle, but when I read how Paul defended his credentials I disqualified myself because I wasn't working any miracles. Paul said this is the mark of an Apostle.

If you're not working miracles then you're not an Apostle.

2 Corinthians 12:12 - The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.

Irrefutable evidence. Couldn't ask for better proof.

And agree, I've never seen one either.

I've known people who supposedly speak in tongues that imply they are...miracles that cannot be proven one way or another, but when it comes to raising the dead, healing someone or telling the future, claims seem to go silent.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are there Apostles today? I don't know. I never seen one.

I can almost guarantee you have seen one on this forum, and on tv/ media-internet/ maybe in person in "concert"/"revival".
Meaning ?
Exposed already, false apostles. (there's many , with lists and Scriptural reasons soundly showing why).

Is it possible?
I don't know..

As it is written, in line with all Scripture and all history, there are MANY FALSE.

Not many, if any true - but can be - not appointed by man, nor by tradition EVER,
but
called, chosen and appointed by God,
as they always were,
and as the two witnesses are/ will be seen.

 

[Waggles]

Are there Apostles today? I don't know. I never seen one. Is it possible?

Yes there are still apostles today > within Pentecostal faith.
When a believer is truly Spirit-filled (and can speak in tongues) then one is ordained by God
with the authority to preach the full gospel of salvation to others.
Pentecostal saints are ambassadors to Jesus and the gospel.
And yes we have signs and miracles both individually and all 9 gifts in the Church.

G652 apostolos From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after
that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:27-28

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed
unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:4-5
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some,
pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the
body of Christ: Ephesians 4:11-12

A true Pentecostal Church, Mark 16:15-20, and exercising the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit,
1 Corinthians 12, has apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors, teachers, miracles, healings,
signs and wonders.
We of The Revival Fellowship certainly do.

 

[Waggles]

The office of Apostles and Prophets have been the 2 that I've been seeking God on. The theology taught in the Incorporated Churches of Christ teach that those 2 do not exist anymore

Not true.
There are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit dispersed to a Pentecostal Fellowship that is disciplined and
obedient to the Word.
These gifts are there for each saint to make use of when necessary - such as; working of miracles,
faith (when undergoing tribulations or chastisements), wisdom, gifts of healings, etc.

But there are three gifts that are used only in a formal Pentecostal Assembly meeting -
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:26

After the taking of communion at a Sunday meeting we exercise the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit
wherein one will speak in tongues (diversities of tongues) and this is followed by interpretation.
No more than three times max.
Then up to three prophets shall speak giving revelation directly from both Jesus and our Father.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

"If" some of the "spiritual gifts" have not ceased, even with the completion of the New Testament, and without speaking of the specific gift of "speaking in tongues" how should we receive the teaching that apostles are still in existence today as well? My understanding is that an apostle in Jesus time on earth, was one that was a "sent one" as a representative of God, that had a message (the verbal message of the gospel and the N.T.), who was also giving supernatural gifts (the gift of miracles, the gift of knowledge, the gift of healings, etc.) as credentials to hearers/observers that he was indeed a messenger of God. My aim in this thread is not to cause division, we already have that. My aim is to understand how knowledgable people of the Scriptures can hold the view that true apostles still exist today. God bless.

Does not help a direct answer but there are things we can say we do know. From Scripture alone it appears there were more than 12, also a clear distinction made for being one of THE twelve (including Matthias), Saint Peter made clear the person qualified to be one of the 12 Apostles needed to be witness to Jesus ministry (Acts 1:21-22), and we have Scripture case for Apostleship that Saint Paul made for his own Apostleship, as well as apparent existence of false Apostles (2 Cor 11) that Saint Paul references. We also have a few other named people in Scripture that folks have made cases for, that they too were considered Apostles, and the apparent amibiguity of those cases leaves open the possibility there were more we do not know the names of from Scripture (EO tradition for example talks about a number, 70 I think Apostles)

From Saint Paul's own defense case for Apostleship (but not one of the 12), no matter what duties, roles, supernatural powers, privilege, authority...etc., that we think Scriptures tells us they had; it appears critical that the person could have a claim of witness to Jesus ministry or at least in Paul's own defense personally met and was given a Apostolic assignment by Jesus Himself. And Saint Paul apparently had to defend his title repeatedly, so it was not a easy claim to make after our Lord's ministry here was finished. No matter what else one claims about needing to fill those shoes through the ages, IMO those details about qualification alone from Scripture make any claim of Apostleship beyond those loosely referenced men in the first century Scripture dubious at best.

Were there more than 12? Absolutely, but the 12 were specially honored obviously within the Church. How many more? I do not think we can answer that with any real credibility. Are there any today? No.

Are there supernatural spiritual gifts today? Absolutely. Things like miracles, curing, casting out demons, prophecy...etc, were never restricted to just an Apostle and have been documented through the ages of Christianity, including modern times. I do not think we need to imagine supernatural gifts are not possible absent Apostles today.

Also think after God revealing Himself personally on a mission to "finish" it, that the idea we need Apostles today to provide "new" revelations/teachings from God is very questionable. God does not change and His message to mankind has not changed. He changed us first by reaching out to His Chosen people and revealing Himself to them, which changed ancient civilization. Then after many millennium influencing change in humans through those people, He finished that revelation to all mankind in Person. It does not seem reasonable would God leave nearly several millennium of Christians in the dark about something that Christians today needed to know. It would suggest rather than having finished His Work with us, He left some things we needed to know unfinished.

Similar case for saying the "age of Prophets" ended with the Prophet par excel-lance, Jesus. That does not rule out the spiritual gift of prophecy today any more than saying no more Apostles means there are no more miracles or healing. But the end of that age with Jesus, rather limits prophecy today compared to the scope Jesus had. So we still have prophecies as a spiritual gift also.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"If" some of the "spiritual gifts" have not ceased, even with the completion of the New Testament, and without speaking of the specific gift of "speaking in tongues" how should we receive the teaching that apostles are still in existence today as well? My understanding is that an apostle in Jesus time on earth, was one that was a "sent one" as a representative of God, that had a message (the verbal message of the gospel and the N.T.), who was also giving supernatural gifts (the gift of miracles, the gift of knowledge, the gift of healings, etc.) as credentials to hearers/observers that he was indeed a messenger of God. My aim in this thread is not to cause division, we already have that. My aim is to understand how knowledgable people of the Scriptures can hold the view that true apostles still exist today. God bless.

Paul Barnabas, Timotheous and Silvans were apostles after the resurrection as scripture shows. We also read of Prophets after the resurrection in the church.

Nowhere does it say they have ceased.

The church needs apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers, until we all come in the unity of the faith unto the perfect man. This is still to come.

I can show scriptures for all those men as apostles after the resurrection if you want.

Also the first 12 apostles had a specific ministry and Matthias also to have been eye witnesses of jesus life from John to the resurrection. But the apostles after the resurrection have a different ministry n parts. In Ephesians 4 we read of God giving gifts to men after the resurrection. some apostles.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

An Apostle defined by the lead Apostle speaking of Judas empty seat;

Acts 1

‘Let another take his position of overseer.’

21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us to his resurrection.”​

 

[Root of Jesse]

What miracles do they perform? Or is that not a requirement for Catholicism? (still trying to settle on some ground rules here

Every bishop (and priest, for that matter) causes a miracle to happen at every Mass. First of all, the New Jerusalem of Revelation briefly touches earth in the Mass, and secondly, at every Mass, the bread and wine are changed to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
I think it's funny how, as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the visions at Fatima, Portugal, people focus on the visible miracles and ignore the invisible ones.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Every bishop (and priest, for that matter) causes a miracle to happen at every Mass. First of all, the New Jerusalem of Revelation briefly touches earth in the Mass, and secondly, at every Mass, the bread and wine are changed to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
I think it's funny how, as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the visions at Fatima, Portugal, people focus on the visible miracles and ignore the invisible ones.

That's because invisible miracles can be faked very easily. Jesus did Miracles that could be seen, and not to show off, but to make it clear who he was. We like to be clear on who we are dealing with when it comes to someone claiming to do, or supposedly doing miracles.

Anyway, the first miracle you mention of the New Jerusalem touching earth...I don't understand?

And on the bread and wine changed to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, are you saying it's actually changed to physical flesh and blood? If so, isn't that something we would be able to see.

In all honestly these seem like something people want to see as miracles, when they are nothing of the sort, but I'll wait for your comment before I draw conclusion.

 

[Greg Merrill]

Does not help a direct answer but there are things we can say we do know. From Scripture alone it appears there were more than 12, also a clear distinction made for being one of THE twelve (including Matthias), Saint Peter made clear the person qualified to be one of the 12 Apostles needed to be witness to Jesus ministry (Acts 1:21-22), and we have Scripture case for Apostleship that Saint Paul made for his own Apostleship, as well as apparent existence of false Apostles (2 Cor 11) that Saint Paul references. We also have a few other named people in Scripture that folks have made cases for, that they too were considered Apostles, and the apparent amibiguity of those cases leaves open the possibility there were more we do not know the names of from Scripture (EO tradition for example talks about a number, 70 I think Apostles)

From Saint Paul's own defense case for Apostleship (but not one of the 12), no matter what duties, roles, supernatural powers, privilege, authority...etc., that we think Scriptures tells us they had; it appears critical that the person could have a claim of witness to Jesus ministry or at least in Paul's own defense personally met and was given a Apostolic assignment by Jesus Himself. And Saint Paul apparently had to defend his title repeatedly, so it was not a easy claim to make after our Lord's ministry here was finished. No matter what else one claims about needing to fill those shoes through the ages, IMO those details about qualification alone from Scripture make any claim of Apostleship beyond those loosely referenced men in the first century Scripture dubious at best.

Were there more than 12? Absolutely, but the 12 were specially honored obviously within the Church. How many more? I do not think we can answer that with any real credibility. Are there any today? No.

Are there supernatural spiritual gifts today? Absolutely. Things like miracles, curing, casting out demons, prophecy...etc, were never restricted to just an Apostle and have been documented through the ages of Christianity, including modern times. I do not think we need to imagine supernatural gifts are not possible absent Apostles today.

Also think after God revealing Himself personally on a mission to "finish" it, that the idea we need Apostles today to provide "new" revelations/teachings from God is very questionable. God does not change and His message to mankind has not changed. He changed us first by reaching out to His Chosen people and revealing Himself to them, which changed ancient civilization. Then after many millennium influencing change in humans through those people, He finished that revelation to all mankind in Person. It does not seem reasonable would God leave nearly several millennium of Christians in the dark about something that Christians today needed to know. It would suggest rather than having finished His Work with us, He left some things we needed to know unfinished.

Similar case for saying the "age of Prophets" ended with the Prophet par excel-lance, Jesus. That does not rule out the spiritual gift of prophecy today any more than saying no more Apostles means there are no more miracles or healing. But the end of that age with Jesus, rather limits prophecy today compared to the scope Jesus had. So we still have prophecies as a spiritual gift also.

I like much of what you say, and thank you for it. One thing I have found is that people have a hard time understanding there is a difference between "the gift of miracles" being given to a man as credentials they are a messenger of God, and God just doing miracles today, or God doing miracles in answer to prayer. Thanks again for your contribution here.