Are the worms and fire used to torment living people? (Rethinking Mark 9:48)

[Mark Corbett]

Hell
Worms and Fire
Mark 9:48
Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever. That is certainly a terrifying thought. Being burned with fire is extremely painful. Being eaten from the inside by worms is terrifying and would also be agonizing. And then if one thinks about these things going on for days, and then years, and then hundreds and thousands and millions of years on and on for eternity - well, it is terrible.
But is that what Jesus meant? I think he meant something different. I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. What do you think? Why?
Optional: If you want to see a little more detail on WHY I hold the view that I hold, you may watch this 14-minute video:

 

[David Lamb]

Hell
Worms and Fire
Mark 9:48
Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever. That is certainly a terrifying thought. Being burned with fire is extremely painful. Being eaten from the inside by worms is terrifying and would also be agonizing. And then if one thinks about these things going on for days, and then years, and then hundreds and thousands and millions of years on and on for eternity - well, it is terrible.
But is that what Jesus meant? I think he meant something different. I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. What do you think? Why?
Optional: If you want to see a little more detail on WHY I hold the view that I hold, you may watch this 14-minute video:

In view of what Jesus was saying in the passage about worms and fire, I don't feel He could have meant worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. After all, the whole passage in Mark reads:

“43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — 44 "where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ 45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — 46 "where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’ 47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire — 48 "where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’” (Mr 9:43-48 NKJV)

You are surely not suggesting that cutting off your hand or foot, or plucking out your eye, involves less suffering than a dead body in the the grave does?

 

[Mark Corbett]

"You are surely not suggesting that cutting off your hand or foot, or plucking out your eye, involves less suffering than a dead body in the the grave does?"

Good question!
I definitely do not want to have an eye plucked out or one of my hands or feet cut off.
Yet, if I had to choose between losing an eye, hand, or foot or being killed, I would rather lose an eye, hand, or foot.
This is true even if all that was involved was cutting short my life now here in this present world. How much more that would be true if the option was to either lose one of those things but get to live forever with Jesus in His eternal Kingdom or else die completely and permanently. I mean, what would you choose?

 

[Unqualified]

Don’t do this scripture to yourself. It is only metaphorical. It will not stop you from sinning. You will surely sin with the other hand, foot ,eye. But you get the idea. It’s more like circumcising the heart. But there are ways through God to stop sinning the major sins and lead a holy life. Don’t sweat the small stuff. Cut off the cause of sin not the actual item. That lack of love, the world the flesh the devil, the being unsaved and without the Holy Spirit. Hope this helps.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Don’t do this scripture to yourself. . . .

I agree that Jesus does not want us to literally cut off our hand or foot or pluck out an eye. He is saying that we should take strong and drastic actions to get rid of sin in our lives and that we should get rid of things that cause us to stumble and sin.

 

[Matt5]

IMO, Mark 9:48 is describing some of the effects of a fatal dose of radiation. A fatal dose of radiation after a nuclear attack looks a lot like hell with weeping, screaming, gnashing of teeth due to the pain. It turns your insides into mush and brings unimaginable pain in the process. This pain will start ramping up and last for days before death. (Video)

The parable of the talents in Matthew 25 seems to associate nuclear attacks (harvests) and hell.

 

[DamianWarS]

Hell
Worms and Fire
Mark 9:48
Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever. That is certainly a terrifying thought. Being burned with fire is extremely painful. Being eaten from the inside by worms is terrifying and would also be agonizing. And then if one thinks about these things going on for days, and then years, and then hundreds and thousands and millions of years on and on for eternity - well, it is terrible.
But is that what Jesus meant? I think he meant something different. I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. What do you think? Why?
Optional: If you want to see a little more detail on WHY I hold the view that I hold, you may watch this 14-minute video:

the text references "geennan" which is Jewish folklore not unlike the adoption of the greek concept of hades. "hell" is often what we translate it to but likewise, it too has pagan baggage not to mention a lot of Christian folklore piled on it. Christ is not reinforcing pagan concepts, myths, or encouraging folklore by adopting these terminologies so we in turn should not be so tempted to back-interpret into these themes.

when we die our bodies go in the ground and stay there until the resurrection/judgment. they do not go somewhere else in turn bodies in hell do not succumb to natural or unnatural decay because it is not a place of the physical it is a place of the spiritual. Christ is expressing here how much we should be concerned about these places by showing us extreme examples. This is the same case with the rich man and Hades liken with fire. there are no physical worms or physical fire in hell and I actually would doubt there is a spiritual counterpart either. The point is this is a place you do not want to end up but we should not deep dive into physical descriptors of these places because they are not physical in nature.

TBH I don't know what heaven/hell look like but they are spiritual in nature not physical so it's not something we can describe since we are very physically driven and based. But the Bible is not a book about the study of hell or heaven, since this is not its goal we should hang on loosely what the it describes of these places and use them as broad strokes rather than fine detail. Our takeaway should be not to study these places and their specific mechanics or what they look like. We already have Dante's inferno to show where our folkisms take us. Dante's inferno however is not ordained revelation, it is myth and folklore and that's all it amounts to, we too should not be caught in a similar trap of obsessing over these things. Rather our takeaway should be hell is where we do not want to go and heaven is where we want to go AND these are serious matters. That's about it, how we accomplish these goals is the purpose of the bible which is regarding salvation through Christ but why care so much about how a worm eats us in a spiritual antithesis to heaven is arbitrary to the point. The point is to care about it and seek Christ for your answers not pagan ideologies.

 

[Mark Corbett]

there are no physical worms or physical fire in hell and I actually would doubt there is a spiritual counterpart either. . . .

TBH I don't know what heaven/hell look like but they are spiritual in nature not physical . . . .

Why do you think that hell (Gehenna) is spiritual and not physical? Do you believe in a future physical resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous? Will not all be resurrected with physical bodies? Why then do you think that hell is only spiritual?

 

[CoreyD]

Hell
Worms and Fire
Mark 9:48
Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever. That is certainly a terrifying thought. Being burned with fire is extremely painful. Being eaten from the inside by worms is terrifying and would also be agonizing. And then if one thinks about these things going on for days, and then years, and then hundreds and thousands and millions of years on and on for eternity - well, it is terrible.
But is that what Jesus meant? I think he meant something different. I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. What do you think? Why?
Optional: If you want to see a little more detail on WHY I hold the view that I hold, you may watch this 14-minute video:

The video is a good example of reasoning from the scriptures.

 

[Mark Corbett]

The video is a good example of reasoning from the scriptures.

That's very encouraging to me. Thanks for taking time to share that comment.

 

[DamianWarS]

Why do you think that hell (Gehenna) is spiritual and not physical? Do you believe in a future physical resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous? Will not all be resurrected with physical bodies? Why then do you think that hell is only spiritual?

We cannot bring the physical with us to the afterlife.

Jesus tells us:
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal ...” (Matthew 6:19-20)

I get the point is "things" but can extend into all physical things like our own bodies (we would certainly apply things like vanity to this verse as "earth treasures). Our bodies will decay but Christ warns of a place of never ending decay which in itself is violates the definition of decay and is not of the physical

The resurrection is regarding a restoration of our bodies into the incorruptible. Many bodies will be dust or beyond so it's not merely the reanimation of the previous death but a new creation of the incorruptible.

Heaven is also not our final resting place as heaven and earth will be one day pass away and a new heaven and earth will come where heaven is on earth. This seems to be an event where the spiritual merges with the physical like a new garden of eden on a new earth. This follows a general theme of restoration/salvation where death comes first followed by a new creation that can be seen through out the bible starting at the creation account.

This new heaven/earth is not separated like we see now and to me a separation of the physical spiritual is the most consistent based on its described as well as how he'll is described.

 

[Mark Corbett]

"The resurrection is regarding a restoration of our bodies into the incorruptible. "

Those of us who are, by God's grace, saved in Christ will indeed be resurrected with incorruptible bodies. But nowhere does the Bible say that the lost will also be resurrected immortal. In fact, from Genesis to Revelation there is no statement that the unsaved will live forever or that all people are immortal.

 

[DamianWarS]

Those of us who are, by God's grace, saved in Christ will indeed be resurrected with incorruptible bodies. But nowhere does the Bible say that the lost will also be resurrected immortal. In fact, from Genesis to Revelation there is no statement that the unsaved will live forever or that all people are immortal.

THe OT's concept of the afterlife is Sheol which is an indescriminate place of the dead where all must go. It's like a curtain that you don't know what's on the other side. There is no concept of lost or redeemed final resting place being anymore than a foggy haze in the OT

The NT is where it introduces some more revelation where we get a glimpse behind the curtain. hades is not a place of the dead for all but it is an undesired place of the dead that we can be saved from. We should not assume Greek mythology to help us define hades so instead the word is adopted to reveal to us what we are saved from.

Regarding the immortal state of the lost I have no idea as the bible is not all that clear. Jn 3:16 shows us a state of perish or a state of eternal life. I would say "perish" is the antithesis to eternal life. In the end the adobes of the lost are all thrown into the lake of fire. I personally think it hints of annihilation but I really don't know only that I want to saved from it.

As to the actual state of "hell" I don't know either. The account of the rich man seems to depict fire as torment and the lake of fire in rev. also depicts everlasting torment but these are all used as imagery and warning for a place we don't want to go to. But the point is not what the place is or is not, rather that we don't want it and I think that should be the focus which is for us to seek salvation from these places regardless of the state they exist in.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Regarding the immortal state of the lost I have no idea as the bible is not all that clear. Jn 3:16 shows us a state of perish or a state of eternal life. I would say "perish" is the antithesis to eternal life. In the end the adobes of the lost are all thrown into the lake of fire. I personally think it hints of annihilation but I really don't know only that I want to saved from it.

Yes, I agree that "perish" in John 3:16 is "the antithesis to eternal life." That much is clear just from a plain reading of the verse in English. If we dig deeper, we can see that the Greek word translated "perish" is apollumi. That word, and a closely related noun (apolleia), are the most commonly used words in the New Testament to describe the final fate of the lost. When it refers to something done by or happening to people, apollumi very consistently involves the loss of life. Other Greek authors used apollumi to specifically refer to what we call annihilation. All of this strengthens the case for annihilation. I have a detailed video on apollumi if you are interested:

 

[David Lamb]

Good question!
I definitely do not want to have an eye plucked out or one of my hands or feet cut off.
Yet, if I had to choose between losing an eye, hand, or foot or being killed, I would rather lose an eye, hand, or foot.
This is true even if all that was involved was cutting short my life now here in this present world. How much more that would be true if the option was to either lose one of those things but get to live forever with Jesus in His eternal Kingdom or else die completely and permanently. I mean, what would you choose?

But in your original post you wrote, "I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. " By the time our dead bodies are destroyed by worms or fire, we will be beyond feeling pain or anything else. You weren't talking about cutting your life short, but about what happens to your corpse after you are dead. Also, Jesus spoke about their worm not dying and their fire not being quenched, and what would be the point of saying that if not to indicate the eternal nature of the suffering?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hell
Worms and Fire
Mark 9:48
Many Christians believe that the worms and fire that Jesus mentions in Mark 9:48 are being used to torment living people in hell forever. That is certainly a terrifying thought. Being burned with fire is extremely painful. Being eaten from the inside by worms is terrifying and would also be agonizing. And then if one thinks about these things going on for days, and then years, and then hundreds and thousands and millions of years on and on for eternity - well, it is terrible.
But is that what Jesus meant? I think he meant something different. I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. What do you think? Why?
Optional: If you want to see a little more detail on WHY I hold the view that I hold, you may watch this 14-minute video:

Mark 9:48 is quoting Isaiah 66:24

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

This is after the Second Coming when Jesus destroys all sinners once and for all.

The unsaved will not be burning forever, they will be ashes Malachi 4:3 It just means one will be consumed, its final. The unsaved will not be immortal.

When Jesus talks about plucking out an eye, He doesn't mean it literally, but some examples of what I think Jesus is referring to: if you notice an attractive person, it's not a sin to notice, it's the lingering/lustful looks that makes it a sin. If you have a co-worker you're attacked to and you're married, best to stay away from, if you have friends who do not live Christians lives, best to keep our distance. We should do everything in our power to not put ourselves in danger of temptation and sinning.

Somone mentioned it's just the big sins that will keep us out of heaven and I disagree. Something as small as a lie can keep us outside those gates if we don't repent and change our ways.

Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Breaking any of the commandments, we have no truth in us.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Our salvation is from sin Mat 1:21, we are not saved in our sin and through Jesus Christ, He can give us a new heart and live holy and righteous lives, His version Psa 119:172 through faith and love. John 14:15, Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 Rev 14:12. If we slip and fall, we have an Advocate with Jesus when we repent and confess 1 John 1:9 , which means a change of direction because we need to not only confess our sins, but forsake them Pro 28:13 which is why after Jesus heals He says go and sin no more. A Christian should not be living in perpetual sin. We can overcome sin through Christ. Phil 4:13

 

[Mark Corbett]

But in your original post you wrote, "I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. " By the time our dead bodies are destroyed by worms or fire, we will be beyond feeling pain or anything else. You weren't talking about cutting your life short, but about what happens to your corpse after you are dead. . . .

You raise good issues and ask helpful questions. Thanks!

If all that Jesus was pointing to was the post-mortem decay of the dead bodies, that would not seem to be worse than having your eye plucked out. If the contrast was "you can have your eye plucked out" -or- "after you die your body will be turned to dust and ashes," I think we would choose option #2. But in the context of both Mark 9 and Isaiah 66, the decomposition of the bodies is a graphic image related to the loss of life. In Mark 9, we have:

43 And if your hand causes your downfall, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and go to hell-- the unquenchable fire,
44 [where Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. ]
45 And if your foot causes your downfall, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and be thrown into hell-- [the unquenchable fire,
46 [where Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. ]
47 And if your eye causes your downfall, gouge it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48 where Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk. 9:43-48 CSB)

The contrast is "enter life" -or- "go to hell."
This strongly implies that those in hell will not continue to have life. And the image of dead bodies being turned to dust and ashes is used to powerfully emphasize this death.

So, the full contrast is something like this:

1. You can enter life in the kingdom of God.
OR
2. You will be thrown into hell where your dead bodies will be reduced to dust and ashes.

I want option #1!

As I mentioned, in Isaiah 66, the same contrast is seen in verses 14-24.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Also, Jesus spoke about their worm not dying and their fire not being quenched, and what would be the point of saying that if not to indicate the eternal nature of the suffering?

The verse does not actually say that the worms will NEVER die or that the fire will NEVER go out. I point this out in the video. The point is that the process of death and decay will be complete permanent.

 

[CoreyD]

But in your original post you wrote, "I think he was referring to worms and fire consuming dead bodies and turning them to dust and ashes. " By the time our dead bodies are destroyed by worms or fire, we will be beyond feeling pain or anything else. You weren't talking about cutting your life short, but about what happens to your corpse after you are dead. Also, Jesus spoke about their worm not dying and their fire not being quenched, and what would be the point of saying that if not to indicate the eternal nature of the suffering?

David. I think you should watch the fourteen minute video.

 

[CoreyD]

Those of us who are, by God's grace, saved in Christ will indeed be resurrected with incorruptible bodies. But nowhere does the Bible say that the lost will also be resurrected immortal. In fact, from Genesis to Revelation there is no statement that the unsaved will live forever or that all people are immortal.

Mark. I have a question, but I don't want to derail the thread. Can you answer it here, please. Thanks.