A Sorites Paradox for Christians: Backsliding

[public hermit]

In philosophy, a "Sorites Paradox" is a paradox concerning vagueness. Consider a heap of sand. How many grains of sand does it take to make a "heap?" Surely, one grain will not do. Two grains hardly constitutes a heap. What about three, or four, or five? In other words, the term "heap" is vague. It's difficult (impossible?) to demarcate exactly how many grains of sand make a heap. One can do something similar with baldness. How many hairs must I lose before you would consider me bald? One, two, three...three hundred?

Christians may also be confronted with problems of vagueness. For example, there are some Christians who say that salvation is contingent not only on God's grace, but also on not sinning. In other words, it is possible to sin away one's salvation. But, how many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation? Obviously, if someone is going around murdering and stealing and being a consummate transgressor, then sinfulness and not grace reigns in the life of that person. And likewise, if someone rarely sins, they should be confident they have not sinned away their salvation. The rest of us probably live somewhere in-between, somewhere in the vagueness.

So, for those who believe salvation can be sinned away (and of course anybody else), I present a sorites paradox for Christians: "The Backslider's Paradox." How many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation?

(If you can't quantify over backsliding (if you can't give a number), then feel free to discuss the process of backsliding. At what point is one considered a backslider? And, if you trust wholly upon God's grace and not your own lack of sinfulness, then you may discuss that also.)

Sorites Paradox (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why the confusion ?
Scripture is simple and clear, not confusing.
If someone by their own free will chooses to reject the heavenlies they have tasted already in Christ Jesus,
and they trample underfoot His Preciousness,
there no longer remains ANY sacrifice for their sins.

Their choice. (to depart from Jesus)

 

[~Zao~]

Why the confusion ?
Scripture is simple and clear, not confusing.
If someone by their own free will chooses to reject the heavenlies they have tasted already in Christ Jesus,
and they trample underfoot His Preciousness,
there no longer remains ANY sacrifice for their sins.

Their choice. (to depart from Jesus)

Do you think Peter had no way back after siding with the law keepers? He turned back but obviously not far enough to be unsanctified, proven by the forward movements of his life as a living stone, in his fleshly body. In fact the proof came from the Pharisees themselves when they said “ Yup yup, these guys (Peter and John) have obviously been with Jesus.

 

[public hermit]

Why the confusion ?
Scripture is simple and clear, not confusing.
If someone by their own free will chooses to reject the heavenlies they have tasted already in Christ Jesus,
and they trample underfoot His Preciousness,
there no longer remains ANY sacrifice for their sins.

Their choice. (to depart from Jesus)

Of course it's not confusing if you don't try. So, try. Try to say how many sins it takes to sin away salvation. Is it one? Two? Three? If you sin ten times a day is that sufficient to abrogate grace?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Of course it's not confusing if you don't try. So, try. Try to say how many sins it takes to sin away salvation. Is it one? Two? Three? If you sin ten times a day is that sufficient to abrogate grace?

It is confusing when you make it confusing.
Doesn't matter if anyone else tries or not.
Only one.(sin). AS WRITTEN.
Your adding confusion does not help anyone except perhaps to expose ulterior motives ?

 

[public hermit]

It is confusing when you make it confusing.
Doesn't matter if anyone else tries or not.
Only one.(sin). AS WRITTEN.
Your adding confusion does not help anyone except perhaps to expose ulterior motives ?

Wait a minute. Are you saying one sin is sufficient to lose one's salvation?

And no, I am not trying to spread confusion. I am trying to expose an absurdity. I sense you already know what I'm talking about.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Wait a minute. Are you saying one sin is sufficient to lose one's salvation?

And no, I am not trying to spread confusion. I am trying to expose an absurdity. I sense you already know what I'm talking about.

Without trying, your posting is causing confusion in others.

What one sin were people condemned for already while alive, in the New Testament, as written clearly even in English ?

 

[public hermit]

Without trying, your posting is causing confusion in others.

What one sin were people condemned for already while alive, in the New Testament, as written clearly even in English ?

I don't understand. How do you know this post is causing confusion for others. Is there a group discussing this post that I am not privy to? Why don't they just post their thoughts here?

Look, I don't want to frustrate you. I want to show that the idea of sinning away one's salvation is absurd, at least on the face of it. I welcome any arguments that show I am wrong. But please, don't think I am trying to cause confusion. If anything, I am trying to clarify the sufficiency of God's grace given in Jesus Christ.

Could it be that your sense of confusion is that you sense the absurdity in sinning one's salvation away?

 

[public hermit]

What one sin were people condemned for already while alive, in the New Testament, as written clearly even in English ?

Are you referring to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are you referring to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

No.
(but that's perhaps one to note for further reading)

 

[public hermit]

No.
(but that's perhaps one to note for further reading)

You will have to say more. Now, I'm confused.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't understand. How do you know this post is causing confusion for others.

I think errors always cause confusion in someone.

 

[Halbhh]

In philosophy, a "Sorites Paradox" is a paradox concerning vagueness. Consider a heap of sand. How many grains of sand does it take to make a "heap?" Surely, one grain will not do. Two grains hardly constitutes a heap. What about three, or four, or five? In other words, the term "heap" is vague. It's difficult (impossible?) to demarcate exactly how many grains of sand make a heap. One can do something similar with baldness. How many hairs must I lose before you would consider me bald? One, two, three...three hundred?

Christians may also be confronted with problems of vagueness. For example, there are some Christians who say that salvation is contingent not only on God's grace, but also on not sinning. In other words, it is possible to sin away one's salvation. But, how many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation? Obviously, if someone is going around murdering and stealing and being a consummate transgressor, then sinfulness and not grace reigns in the life of that person. And likewise, if someone rarely sins, they should be confident they have not sinned away their salvation. The rest of us probably live somewhere in-between, somewhere in the vagueness.

So, for those who believe salvation can be sinned away (and of course anybody else), I present a sorites paradox for Christians: "The Backslider's Paradox." How many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation?

(If you can't quantify over backsliding (if you can't give a number), then feel free to discuss the process of backsliding. At what point is one considered a backslider? And, if you trust wholly upon God's grace and not your own lack of sinfulness, then you may discuss that also.)

Sorites Paradox (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

The inspired words to us in the epistle 1rst John seem so very necessary:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

1 John 1 NIV and 2


His Amazing Grace is so great that if we only turn to Him and sincerely confess our wrongs, He will cleanse us and purify us from unrighteousness!

This is Good News -- that if we repent and (re)turn to Christ, He will save us!

While it is good that some churches have confessional practices (such as the Lutheran church for example), anyone can confess when they feel the need to, directly to God, as we feel pulled to do at times in life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You will have to say more. Now, I'm confused.

Search the Scriptures, as all I posted is Truth from Scripture, clearly, without tradition or any other type of deviation.

i.e. internet search "condemned" at Biblegateway or another Bible Search Tool,
(I just did this again a few minutes ago)
to see who is condemned , as written in Yahuweh's (God's) Word.

 

[public hermit]

I think errors always cause confusion in someone.

Just saying I am in error doesn't prove anything.

Look, if you don't want to engage in a discussion concerning "backsliding" I understand. I have very low expectations for this thread because I assume it should be obvious that sinning one's salvation away is absurd.

Honestly, I am hoping that just reading the OP will convert every one to believing that God's grace given in Jesus Christ is sufficient. If that happens my job here is done.

 

[public hermit]

Search the Scriptures, as all I posted is Truth from Scripture, clearly, without tradition or any other type of deviation.

i.e. internet search "condemned" at Biblegateway or another Bible Search Tool,
(I just did this again a few minutes ago)
to see who is condemned , as written in Yahuweh's (God's) Word.

There is a pastoral concern here as well. I grew up in a tradition that assumed one could sin their salvation away. As a child, it was frightening. I never knew if I was good enough. In fact, I was pretty convinced that I was not. And that, as a child. I did not believe that God loved me unless I was good. And since I couldn't be good all the time, I did not get the sense that God loved me. But of course, you and I both know that is not how it works.

So, there are important reasons for hammering this nonsense out of the collective Christian conscience.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is a pastoral concern here as well. I grew up in a tradition that assumed one could sin there salvation away.

This would make it urgent then, to find out what sin or sins can throw away someone's salvation, as written in Scripture. (NOT from tradition)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I never knew if I was good enough. In fact, I was pretty convinced that I was not.

Good? This is Truth. This is true of everyone - no one is "good enough" that God should care about us at all....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And since I couldn't be good all the time, I did not get the sense that God loved me.

If Yahuweh the Creator Says to be Perfect, because He is Perfect (NOT the ENglish meaning of the word "perfect", but mature, all that is possible for a person)
will you willingly BELIEVE HIM (His Word) ?
If Yahuweh the Creator Says to be Holy, because your heavenly Father is holy,
are you willing to be? Willing to agree with Him that He is Perfectly Right? And willing to DO as He Says ?

 

[Halbhh]

In philosophy, a "Sorites Paradox" is a paradox concerning vagueness. Consider a heap of sand. How many grains of sand does it take to make a "heap?" Surely, one grain will not do. Two grains hardly constitutes a heap. What about three, or four, or five? In other words, the term "heap" is vague. It's difficult (impossible?) to demarcate exactly how many grains of sand make a heap. One can do something similar with baldness. How many hairs must I lose before you would consider me bald? One, two, three...three hundred?

Christians may also be confronted with problems of vagueness. For example, there are some Christians who say that salvation is contingent not only on God's grace, but also on not sinning. In other words, it is possible to sin away one's salvation. But, how many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation? Obviously, if someone is going around murdering and stealing and being a consummate transgressor, then sinfulness and not grace reigns in the life of that person. And likewise, if someone rarely sins, they should be confident they have not sinned away their salvation. The rest of us probably live somewhere in-between, somewhere in the vagueness.

So, for those who believe salvation can be sinned away (and of course anybody else), I present a sorites paradox for Christians: "The Backslider's Paradox." How many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation?

(If you can't quantify over backsliding (if you can't give a number), then feel free to discuss the process of backsliding. At what point is one considered a backslider? And, if you trust wholly upon God's grace and not your own lack of sinfulness, then you may discuss that also.)

Sorites Paradox (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Having the key thing from 1rst John just above, I suppose that how-many-sins question is answered in the Catholic manner according to 'mortal' and 'venial' sins, right? That smaller sins are washed away by the communion, by the Eucharist, but some more serious ones separate us from God, and we must repent (confess) of them? (the spirit can convict us to feel guilty and feel the need to repent) Mmmm....you know, I'm remembering though that He washed their feet (they were already clean He explained to Peter, so that only their feet need washing) -- and He said to us to wash each others feet..... This feels like it connects. How do we wash each others feet. Is it that we forgive one another -- show mercy and grace to one another, returning anger with mildness and love?