9Marks Concerns

[Wgw]

There is a somewhat influential grouping of Calvinist churches (some SBC, some PCA, some independent/other/et cetera) called 9Marks which has attracted a number of criticisms, largely on unjust and heavy handed "church discipline". The blog Wartburg Watch has documented a number of unpleasant horror stories regarding this issue.

Two problems in particular trouble me. The first is this very disagreeable remark:

"In this context, the word “Christian” can be particularly problematic. To much of the Muslim world, America, Europe, and Russia are “Christian” societies, and whatever is true for those countries is true of Christianity. Thus, when a Central Asian Muslim asks me if I am a Christian, what they mean by “Christian” is an alcohol-drinking, pornography-watching, sexually promiscuous, picture-worshipping Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic person who is part of the culture that has attempted to conquer and oppress them for centuries. Therefore, I never simply say yes. However, since Christian is a biblical word, neither do I say no. I define who I am in biblical terms apart from their historical experience."

This unpleasant statement was part pf a broader post regarding missionary activity to Muslims, which I support, however, it seems this inflammatory approach regarding indigenous Christians in the region could do more harm than good. Source: http://9marks.org/article/putting-contextualization-its-place/

The second is the distressing number of instances documented on Wartburg Watch and elsewhere of people having hurtful experiences leaving 9Marks.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/07...ed-in-the-9-marks-view-of-church-resignation/

It is my view that 9Marks should very much back off on the Church Discipline aspect; at some point I fear someone might well be able to accuse these Christians, who are Nicene Christians, of being a cult, based on these practices, and get away with it, which would be an extreme embarassment. I do not regard the PCA or SBC as being cults; I admire the work of the late Rev. Dr. James Kennedy on the subject of cults, as well as that of Al Mohler. What is more, I agree with the social conservativism of the PCA and SBC; 9Marks threatens to upset this, and IMO these denominations would be justified in directing their local churches to disassociate with 9Marks. 9Marks has a slick media presence, rather dramatically nicer than the websites of any Orthodox churches or the Vatican, so it is a pity that they cannot use this presence in a more broadly tolerant manner, and that they are associated with disagreeable practices in terms of church discipline which are attracting not unjusitifiable criticism.

 

[thecolorsblend]

From a logical standpoint I have to wonder what other choice Protestants have. They clearly recognize the need for the ministers of God to exercise some kind of discipline over their members. But by virtue of what Protestantism is, there is no mechanism to make any disciplinary action binding.

These are non-issues in our Churches because of each Church's structure.

That said, I've been on the receiving end of undue and harsh discipline from an SB congregation. I don't think they were a 9 Marks member congregation at that time but you wouldn't know that based on how they handled my situation. As it goes for resignation, I called them to cancel my membership and was told flat out "no"... unless I tell them where I was attending services at that time. (A) I didn't believe they had a right to know that and (B) based on how horribly they handled my situation, I didn't believe in their authority. Obviously I don't believe in their authority now either but for different reasons.

I can attest to how much it sucks to receive unnecessary and poorly managed "discipline" from an unqualified group like the evangelicals but it's what ultimately led me to Rome so I'm okay with it in the end.

To tie it back though, Protestants understand that there must be accountability for members but since they've broken with the Church, they have no instrument whereby they can exercise true discipline. Stuff like 9 Marks is their best attempt to rectify that but I'd say horrible outcomes like mine are not only inevitable but are probably the norm.

Oddly enough, this isn't the only way the SBC has badly tried to replace what it has abandoned with the Church. The SBC actually has it's own bizarre form of succession. Every single appointee and president of the SBC can be traced back to Adrian Rogers, a pastor who was elected president of the convention back in the 80's. He made appointments and stayed in office long enough to ensure that all people who are president or receive other appointments can be traced back to him directly.

Once again the SBC has abandoned the Church but has learned that it needs what the Church has to offer and has thus invented a bad photocopy hackjob version of basic Church functions. The shoddy results speak for themselves.

 

[Wgw]

When it comes to church discipline, the Orthodox have the various nomocanons such as the famous Pedalion of St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, however, these are very seldom applied except in the case of heresy or misbehaving clergy. For example, it is uncanonical for a clergyman to accept management of the finances of parishioners.

 

[Wgw]

From a logical standpoint I have to wonder what other choice Protestants have. They clearly recognize the need for the ministers of God to exercise some kind of discipline over their members. But by virtue of what Protestantism is, there is no mechanism to make any disciplinary action binding.

These are non-issues in our Churches because of each Church's structure.

That said, I've been on the receiving end of undue and harsh discipline from an SB congregation. I don't think they were a 9 Marks member congregation at that time but you wouldn't know that based on how they handled my situation. As it goes for resignation, I called them to cancel my membership and was told flat out "no"... unless I tell them where I was attending services at that time. (A) I didn't believe they had a right to know that and (B) based on how horribly they handled my situation, I didn't believe in their authority. Obviously I don't believe in their authority now either but for different reasons.

I can attest to how much it sucks to receive unnecessary and poorly managed "discipline" from an unqualified group like the evangelicals but it's what ultimately led me to Rome so I'm okay with it in the end.

To tie it back though, Protestants understand that there must be accountability for members but since they've broken with the Church, they have no instrument whereby they can exercise true discipline. Stuff like 9 Marks is their best attempt to rectify that but I'd say horrible outcomes like mine are not only inevitable but are probably the norm.

Oddly enough, this isn't the only way the SBC has badly tried to replace what it has abandoned with the Church. The SBC actually has it's own bizarre form of succession. Every single appointee and president of the SBC can be traced back to Adrian Rogers, a pastor who was elected president of the convention back in the 80's. He made appointments and stayed in office long enough to ensure that all people who are president or receive other appointments can be traced back to him directly.

Once again the SBC has abandoned the Church but has learned that it needs what the Church has to offer and has thus invented a bad photocopy hackjob version of basic Church functions. The shoddy results speak for themselves.

By the way, aside from being disagreeable when you decided to leave, did the SBC church do anything else unpleasant?

 

[thecolorsblend]

By the way, aside from being disagreeable when you decided to leave, did the SBC church do anything else unpleasant?

Well, there was the reason for my departure, which was unjustified, poorly executed discipline for which I have never received an apology.

Prior to that there was a real mess going on between the lead pastor and various of the deacons. I never knew all the details* but whatever happened was serious enough that said deacons were disfellowshipped and the pastor hired bodyguards for a time.

One thing that stands out is when I was a teacher of a group of 20-somethings. I had lunch with the group one Sunday and one group member threatened me with violence. Long (and boring) story short, I, as the teacher and quasi-authority figure at the table, told him to behave about something so he turned on me and tried to pick a fight with me. I reported the incident to an assistant pastor who said he'd take action and let me know what happened but he never did.

*This wasn't publicized much but a lot of evangelicals have a weird way of saying just enough. They won't tell the whole story about whatever incident went on but they'll say just enough to give you a lot of (possibly wrong) negative impressions.

 

[Wgw]

Well, there was the reason for my departure, which was unjustified, poorly executed discipline for which I have never received an apology.

Prior to that there was a real mess going on between the lead pastor and various of the deacons. I never knew all the details* but whatever happened was serious enough that said deacons were disfellowshipped and the pastor hired bodyguards for a time.

One thing that stands out is when I was a teacher of a group of 20-somethings. I had lunch with the group one Sunday and one group member threatened me with violence. Long (and boring) story short, I, as the teacher and quasi-authority figure at the table, told him to behave about something so he turned on me and tried to pick a fight with me. I reported the incident to an assistant pastor who said he'd take action and let me know what happened but he never did.

*This wasn't publicized much but a lot of evangelicals have a weird way of saying just enough. They won't tell the whole story about whatever incident went on but they'll say just enough to give you a lot of (possibly wrong) negative impressions.

Well, thank God you escaped that into the richness of the apostolic faith!

 

[thecolorsblend]

Well, thank God you escaped that into the richness of the apostolic faith!

Thanks! It might have happened sooner. I was casting about for somewhere to worship back in 2006 and was seriously considering the Episcopal church. But they were in such a mess back then that I didn't want to bother. It's gotten worse now, as we all know, but back then it was so bad that I didn't want to waste my time. But liturgical worship interested me. But I ended up settling in with that SB congregation so I figured it wasn't meant to be. When that nonsense went on with that nitwit pastor at the SB congregation, I visited an ACNA parish for about a year before deciding to do the job right and joined the Catholic Church. So there you go.

If you believe in the idea of parallel universes, there's probably one out there where I ended up in the Orthodox Church because I did consider them at one point but the ACNA parish fit the bill and it was closer to where I live anyway.

 

[Wgw]

Thanks! It might have happened sooner. I was casting about for somewhere to worship back in 2006 and was seriously considering the Episcopal church. But they were in such a mess back then that I didn't want to bother. It's gotten worse now, as we all know, but back then it was so bad that I didn't want to waste my time. But liturgical worship interested me. But I ended up settling in with that SB congregation so I figured it wasn't meant to be. When that nonsense went on with that nitwit pastor at the SB congregation, I visited an ACNA parish for about a year before deciding to do the job right and joined the Catholic Church. So there you go.

If you believe in the idea of parallel universes, there's probably one out there where I ended up in the Orthodox Church because I did consider them at one point but the ACNA parish fit the bill and it was closer to where I live anyway.

Indeed. Regarding parallel universes, its the sort of thing one wishes might be true even if one cannot access them, although the soteriological implications are perhaps more than a trifle unsettling. I myself am disinterested in the theological gap between our two communions; the RCC is very agreeable to me as a general principle.

 

[KingCrimson250]

The curse of Protestantism is that unfortunately we struggle to define our own positions in a way that doesn't villainize others. It's been a part of the movement's DNA since its earliest inception and is something we still haven't really passed through our system yet. The fact that people look back on the vitriol figures like Luther and Calvin spewed towards Catholics (and Anabaptists, but whatever) and see it as something to be emulated and "the spirit of the Reformation" doesn't help things.

The rise of an increased sense of sympathy for and fellowship with Cathodox among many Protestants over the past couple of decades has also provoked some rather strong responses from reactionaries.

Addressing 9Marks as a whole, they seem to be a ministry that is prominent among a certain subset of pastors and ministry leaders, but that has very little influence or clout in either the academy or among the laity.

 

[Wgw]

The curse of Protestantism is that unfortunately we struggle to define our own positions in a way that doesn't villainize others. It's been a part of the movement's DNA since its earliest inception and is something we still haven't really passed through our system yet. The fact that people look back on the vitriol figures like Luther and Calvin spewed towards Catholics (and Anabaptists, but whatever) and see it as something to be emulated and "the spirit of the Reformation" doesn't help things.

The rise of an increased sense of sympathy for and fellowship with Cathodox among many Protestants over the past couple of decades has also provoked some rather strong responses from reactionaries.

Addressing 9Marks as a whole, they seem to be a ministry that is prominent among a certain subset of pastors and ministry leaders, but that has very little influence or clout in either the academy or among the laity.

Please do not use the word "Cathodox" as it is deeply offensive in light of various Orthodox martyred by RCs, during the Crusades, the Union of Brest, and in more recent times (Peter the Aleut).

The problems with 9Marks are the huge anti-Orthodox, anti-Catholic slur casually posted on their site, and their disturbing efforts to prevent people leaving their church, et cetera, which are distressing (shunning people who leave is entirely unacceptable).

 

[thecolorsblend]

Please do not use the word "Cathodox" as it is deeply offensive in light of various Orthodox martyred by RCs, during the Crusades, the Union of Brest, and in more recent times (Peter the Aleut).

The problems with 9Marks are the huge anti-Orthodox, anti-Catholic slur casually posted on their site, and their disturbing efforts to prevent people leaving their church, et cetera, which are distressing (shunning people who leave is entirely unacceptable).

It's also contrary to the typical method I'm familiar with (as a theoretical thing) in Protestant congregations, where the remedy for the sorts of grievous sin requiring discipline call for that person to be more or less disfellowshipped (they can't say "excommunicated" because that's what "the liturgical people" say) until they get their act together. The pastor and maybe some deacons should work with whoever is having the sin problem if he's willing to and then welcome him back into fellowship (they don't "welcome him back into communion" because that's what "the liturgical people" do). Removing the sinner from the congregation until he gets his act together is basically SOP for most Protestant congregations. It looks like 9marks is basically saying "You can't quit, YOU'RE FIRED!" It's utterly senseless even by Protestant standards.