1 john

[Hilbrand]

I was reading the letter from 1john and there are 2 texts that seems to contradict each other.

The first is 1john 1: 9
When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

the second is1 John 3:16

Everyone who is born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; and he can not sin because he is born of God

In the top verse John writes When we (the believers and themselves) confess our sins and in 1John 3:16 he says that anyone born of God can not sin. Why then the upper verse do I wonder? If someone who is born of God can not sin, why do we need to confess?

 

[Halbhh]

I was reading the letter from 1john and there are 2 texts that seems to contradict each other.

The first is 1john 1: 9
When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

the second is1 John 3:16

Everyone who is born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; and he can not sin because he is born of God

In the top verse John writes When we (the believers and themselves) confess our sins and in 1John 3:16 he says that anyone born of God can not sin. Why then the upper verse do I wonder? If someone who is born of God can not sin, why do we need to confess?

Yes indeed! This very wonderful writing is asking you the reader to truly listen without trying to simplify I feel. See, both things are true. We are both truly changed, really different than we were, yet also can stumble into sin -- both! This kind of seeming contradiction is how the human heart and soul are like, being quite able to take 2 steps forward and one backward quite often. We rely on His restoration of us so many times in life, just over and over. We are being saved (present tense). We are walking on a path, following Him, and can stumble, but if we confess, He helps us back up!

 

[Kevin Snow]

This is a good question.

The one verse is referring to the effective work which is done through Jesus Christ: confessing our sins and becoming cleansed of all unrighteousness.

The other verse is speaking in terms of our identity in Christ, as it says:

Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” ~John 8:12

So this has the same problem you mentioned. How can we have the light of life when we still sin? Even after coming to know the Lord?

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
~2 Corinthians 3:18

So its describing a process. When you confess your sins, you are cleansed and can no longer keep sinning because it is not who you are in Christ. As it says:

Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. ~Luke 3:8

 

[Doug Melven]

I was reading the letter from 1john and there are 2 texts that seems to contradict each other.

The first is 1john 1: 9
When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

the second is1 John 3:16

Everyone who is born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; and he can not sin because he is born of God

In the top verse John writes When we (the believers and themselves) confess our sins and in 1John 3:16 he says that anyone born of God can not sin. Why then the upper verse do I wonder? If someone who is born of God can not sin, why do we need to confess?

It is actually 1 John 3:9.
Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Your body and soul were not born again, they will be when Jesus comes back for us.
Your spirit is the part of you that was born again..It is one with God (1 Corinthians 6:17) and it cannot sin.

 

[bcbsr]

I was reading the letter from 1john and there are 2 texts that seems to contradict each other.

The first is 1john 1: 9
When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

the second is1 John 3:16

Everyone who is born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; and he can not sin because he is born of God

In the top verse John writes When we (the believers and themselves) confess our sins and in 1John 3:16 he says that anyone born of God can not sin. Why then the upper verse do I wonder? If someone who is born of God can not sin, why do we need to confess?

1John is about distinguishing children of God from children of the devil based upon their faith and characteristic behavior.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

The English translation may seem confusing because it fails to bring out an important nuance of the Greek which John is utilizing. Namely that the Greek Aorist tense is speaking of point in time events verse the Greek Present tense which speaks of lifestyle.

I did an extensive study of 1John along this line which you can view at http://bcbsr.com/books/1jn.html

 

[1watchman]

I was reading the letter from 1john and there are 2 texts that seems to contradict each other.

The first is 1john 1: 9
When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

the second is1 John 3:16

Everyone who is born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; and he can not sin because he is born of God

In the top verse John writes When we (the believers and themselves) confess our sins and in 1John 3:16 he says that anyone born of God can not sin. Why then the upper verse do I wonder? If someone who is born of God can not sin, why do we need to confess?

You mis-quoted the verse (I suppose you have realized that), and you no doubt meant 1 Jn. 3:9. The thought there was translated wrong, and the word "commit" there was properly "practice" sin. A truly "born again" saint will not PRACTICE sin, though one might COMMIT a sin at times and can confess that to be restored. I hope that helps you.

 

[Doug Melven]

You mis-quoted the verse (I suppose you have realized that), and you no doubt meant 1 Jn. 3:9. The thought there was translated wrong, and the word "commit" there was properly "practice" sin. A truly "born again" saint will not PRACTICE sin, though one might COMMIT a sin at times and can confess that to be restored. I hope that helps you.

You should actually look at what the Greek word means.
The Greek word translated "commit" is poieo G4160 which refers to a one time act.
If the Greek word was prasso G4238, that would be rendered practice.

The KJV translates it correctly. the NIV does not.
Also the reason for a born-again believer not sinning is that God's seed remains in Him.
To say one who is born-again can sin, but not practice sin is to say that God can sin, but He does not practice.
Remember that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. There is a part of each born-again believer, our spirit, that does not sin.

 

[1watchman]

I am sure of what I said, Doug, so I will just leave the subject there. Keep looking up!

 

[W2L]

.

 

[ewq1938]

You should actually look at what the Greek word means.
The Greek word translated "commit" is poieo G4160 which refers to a one time act.

I looked at what it means and it isn't a one time act in the slightest. I don't know where you got that from.

G4160
ποιέω
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4160
ποιέω
poieō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make
1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
1b) to be the authors of, the cause
1c) to make ready, to prepare
1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self
1f) to make a thing out of something
1g) to (make, i.e.) render one anything
1g1) to (make, i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
1g2) to (make, i.e.) declare one anything
1h) to put one forth, to lead him out
1i) to make one do something
1i1) cause one to
1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2) to do
2a) to act rightly, do well
2a1) to carry out, to execute
2b) to do a thing unto one
2b1) to do to one
2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
2d) to celebrate, keep
2d1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
2e) to perform: to a promise
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary
Citing in TDNT: 6:458, 895

 

[Doug Melven]

Compare G4238.

Strong's No.: G4238
Greek: πράσσω
Transliteration: prassō
Pronunciation: pras'-so
Definition: A primary verb; to practise that is perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160 which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute accomplish etc.; specifically to collect (dues) fare(personally): - commit deeds do exact keep require use arts.

 

[ewq1938]

Strong's No.: G4238
Greek: πράσσω
Transliteration: prassō
Pronunciation: pras'-so
Definition: A primary verb; to practise that is perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160 which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute accomplish etc.; specifically to collect (dues) fare(personally): - commit deeds do exact keep require use arts.

Two other sources refute that source. This appears to be one of the newer Thayers definitions which borrowed from the original work and added to it. I personally do not trust the newer Thayers because of the changes and additions which contradict his original work and works of others.


The other interesting part is if you look up G4160 from the same site that has the same exact above wording you do not find anything about the word supposedly meaning a single act:


Strong's Number 4238 Greek Dictionary of the New Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Thayer's Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
A primary verb; to "practise", that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally):—commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

We will Not see anything about a single act in the Thayer's definition:

http://lexiconcordance.com/greek/4160.html

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):—abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

I think we have to conclude that this supposed "single act" is simply incorrect based on the above definition which contradicts such a claim.


.

 

[Doug Melven]

Two other sources refute that source. This appears to be one of the newer Thayers definitions which borrowed from the original work and added to it. I personally do not trust the newer Thayers because of the changes and additions which contradict his original work and works of others.


The other interesting part is if you look up G4160 from the same site that has the same exact above wording you do not find anything about the word supposedly meaning a single act:


Strong's Number 4238 Greek Dictionary of the New Testament Online Bible with Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Thayer's Lexicon, Etymology, Translations Definitions Meanings & Key Word Studies - Lexiconcordance.com

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
A primary verb; to "practise", that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally):—commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

We will Not see anything about a single act in the Thayer's definition:

http://lexiconcordance.com/greek/4160.html

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):—abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

I think we have to conclude that this supposed "single act" is simply incorrect based on the above definition which contradicts such a claim.


.

The problem with that reasoning is it ignores the reason those who are born of God cannot sin.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.....

My soul is not born of God, it will be when I am redeemed.
My body is not born of God. It will be when I am redeemed.
My spirit is born of God.
Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
My spirit is one with God. 1 Corinthians 6:17

My spirit cannot sin, it is the New Man which is created in righteous and true holiness
And we are to put this new man on. Ephesians 4:22-24

 

[1watchman]

The problem with that reasoning is it ignores the reason those who are born of God cannot sin.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.....

My soul is not born of God, it will be when I am redeemed.
My body is not born of God. It will be when I am redeemed.
My spirit is born of God.
Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
My spirit is one with God. 1 Corinthians 6:17

My spirit cannot sin, it is the New Man which is created in righteous and true holiness
And we are to put this new man on. Ephesians 4:22-24

Now the subject seems to be changing here to Spirit and Soul, it seems. When one is "born again" --John 3 & 1 Jn.5:10-12, that one is redeemed (soul and spirit, which will together be in Heaven when one leaves this world) and thus will not PRACTICE sin here in life, though may COMMIT a sin at times, to which one can be restored by confessing it to the Lord. See any sound Bible scholar!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You should actually look at what the Greek word means.
The Greek word translated "commit" is poieo G4160 which refers to a one time act.
If the Greek word was prasso G4238, that would be rendered practice.

The KJV translates it correctly. the NIV does not.
Also the reason for a born-again believer not sinning is that God's seed remains in Him.
To say one who is born-again can sin, but not practice sin is to say that God can sin, but He does not practice.
Remember that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. There is a part of each born-again believer, our spirit, that does not sin.

I looked at what it means and it isn't a one time act in the slightest. I don't know where you got that from.

G4160
ποιέω
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):....................... Compare G4238.

G4160
ποιέω
poieō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make
1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
1b) to be the authors of, the cause
2b) to do a thing unto one
2b1) to do to one
2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

The Greek texts appear to agree with you ewq1938, from what I can see.............

1 John 3:
4 Every the one who is doing/ποιῶν/poiwn<4160> the sin, the lawlessness also he is doing/ποιεῖ/poiei<4160>, and the sin is the lawlessness,

4 paV o poiwn thn amartian kai thn anomian poiei kai h amartia estin h anomia
4 Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ, καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.

9 every the one having been begotten of the God, sin not he is doing/ποιεῖ,/poiei<4160> because his seed in him is remaining, and not he is able to be sinning , because from out of the God he hath been begotten.

9 paV o gegennhmenoV ek tou qeou amartian ou poiei oti sperma autou en autw menei kai ou dunatai amartanein oti ek tou qeou gegennhtai
9 πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ, ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει, καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται.

Strong's Greek: 4160. ποιέω (poieó) -- to make, do

poieó: to make, do
Original Word: ποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poieó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I do, make
Definition: (a) I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause.

ποιέω, ποιῶ; imperfect 3 person singular ἐποίει, plural 2 person ἐποιεῖτε, 3 person ἐποίουν; future ποιήσω; 1 aorist ἐποίησα, 3 person plural optative ποιήσειαν (Luke 6:11 R G; cf. Winers Grammar, § 13, 2 d.; (Buttmann, 42 (37))) and ποιήσαιεν (ibid. L T Tr WH (see WH's Appendix, p. 167)); perfect πεποίηκα; pluperfect πεποιήκειν without augment (Mark 15:7; see Winers Grammar, § 12, 9; Buttmann, 33 (29)); middle, present ποιοῦμαι; imperfect ἐποιουμην; future ποιήσομαι; 1 aorist ἐποιησάμην; perfect passive participle πεποιημενος (Hebrews 12:27); from Homer down; Hebrew עָשָׂה; Latinfacio, that is,