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Forgiving the unrepentant?

Jamdoc

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There are two kinds of life: temporal (physical) and eternal (spiritual).

They do not have eternal life.
right they exist and experience punishment/torment/torture call it what you will but it's as bad as it gets.

Ultimately God did not forgive their sins. He held those charges against them and condemned them.

to forgive sin is to not hold it against that person anymore, no punishment, no condemnation.

Psalm 32
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

That man did transgressions (we all do), but the Lord has forgiven him and does not impute that transgression onto him. To forgive is to drop the charge.
If someone goes to the Lake of Fire, by definition, their sin/transgression was held against them, God did not forgive, and thus their iniquity was on them.
 
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Clare73

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right they exist and experience punishment/torment/torture call it what you will but it's as bad as it gets.

Ultimately God did not forgive their sins. He held those charges against them and condemned them.

to forgive sin is to not hold it against that person anymore, no punishment, no condemnation.
Because the penalty has been paid and justice is satisfied, in this case paid by Jesus on the cross.
Psalm 32
That man did transgressions (we all do), but the Lord has forgiven him and does not impute that transgression onto him.
To forgive is to drop the charge.
"Forgive" is an accounting term meaning the debt (penalty) is cancelled.

He is forgiven because the penalty has been paid through faith in Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for him.
Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are not forgiven, their penalty has not been paid by faith and trust in him.
If someone goes to the Lake of Fire, by definition, their sin/transgression was held against them, God did not forgive, and thus their iniquity was on them.
God did not forgive, because forgiveness is only by faith and trust in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.
 
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Jamdoc

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Because the penalty has been paid and justice is satisfied, in this case paid by Jesus on the cross.

Forgive is an accounting term meaning the debt (penalty) has been paid.

He is forgiven because the penalty has been paid through faith in Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for him.
Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are not forgiven, their penalty has not been paid by faith and trust in him.

God did not forgive because forgiveness is only by faith and trust in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.
Different way of wording the same concept but yes. It's forgiven because the justice has already been meted out for it, in a substitionary fashion.

Point being that Via Crucis claiming even those who do not believe in Christ have their sins forgiven as well is not accurate, that their sins are still counted against them rather than being nailed to the cross and having been paid for by Jesus.
 
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ViaCrucis

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God is sovereign over it. God created the Lake of Fire, God sentences people and angels to it. It is His decision and He is responsible for it. You want to dismiss God's role and sovereignty in these things to make God seem kinder and gentler, I get it.
But it's not accurate.

It seems cruel from our vantage point here, but God is right to do it.

I'm not interested in dismissing God's "role" as Sovereign and Judge.

I do think, however, that ascribing to God what we only experience in this world as sadism and psychopathy is deeply disturbing. Which is why I don't think your reading of Scripture and interpretation of God's character is, in fact, biblical or consistent with the Christian Confession.

There are three perspectives on Hell that I reject:

1) I reject the idea that the wicked are obliterated or annihilated in Hell.
2) I reject the idea that everyone will, in the end, be saved.
3) I reject the idea that God tortures people in endless torment forever in Hell.

It is, of course, possible to find isolated passages of Scripture which many use to defend each of these three views. But I'd argue to do so requires taking some passages at the expense of others. In other words, cherry-picking Scripture.

The subject of Hell is difficult. And it's why there has never been a definitive dogmatic position in the Christian Church. Dogmatically the most the Church, historically has said, is that there is indeed Judgment, and the wicked shall experience Hell. Different denominations and traditions may offer more input than that in different ways. For example the Lutheran Confessions reject a view held among some Anabaptist sects of the 16th century that there is a certain and definitive end to Hell. Which is why, generally speaking, Lutherans, especially Confessional Lutherans, reject the dogmatic position of Universalism.

The Lutheran Confessions, also, however, are clear in their rejection of two other doctrines:

1) We reject the idea that God chooses some to be damned, thereby rejecting what is commonly called "Double Predestination"; and explicitly teaching that predestination and election are about comfort for the faithful--that God having chosen us in Christ is about His goodness, grace, and kindness toward us sinners.

2) We reject the idea that salvation is a work of human liberatarian free will, wherein each person can through the exercising of their own strength, ability, or power arrive to a place of faith, turning to God, and thereby convert him or herself. This, we argue, is impossible; for human beings under the total slavery of sin are unable to come to God, to believe upon Christ, or to do any eternal good. It is, therefore, by Grace alone, on Christ's account alone, that through the very Gospel itself the Holy Spirit works faith into the hearts of the faithless, and out of God's gracious choice to save us, having predestined us and elected us in Christ, that we are thereby saved--out of God's own loving-kindness toward us sinners who are entirely lost and dead in our sins.

These two ideas, together, is what leads to what Lutherans to refer to the Crux Theologorum, or "Theologian's Cross", which can be summed up in the question, "Why some, but not others?". If God has chosen us in Christ, and if God desires that all be saved, and if God does not will that anyone to be damned (and, therefore, chooses none to be damned), and it is by God's own power and grace that He converts us through the Gospel by the Holy Spirit giving us faith. Then why some and not others? Why are some, in the end, not saved?

Is it because God has in His sovereignly passed over them and chosen them for damnation? Answer: No. God desires that all be saved. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, so that whoever trusts in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For Christ died for all, having died the death of all men, tasting death for all. For Christ has justified all, by His obedience. Etc.

Is it because some choose to believe and others choose not to believe? Answer: No. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none who seeks God, none who understand, it is impossible to confess Jesus Christ as Lord without the Holy Spirit. We did not choose Him, He chose us.

So, then, why some and not others?

And the answer to this, the only answer we can give, is because ultimately and finally, fully and completely, there are those who choose Hell. God is not a sadist who tortures people for eternity for having happened to won some cosmic lottery. Rather, there simply are those who bitterly, truly, and completely want themselves and want nothing to do with God--and Hell is the name we give to that total rejection.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Different way of wording the same concept but yes. It's forgiven because the justice has already been meted out for it, in a substitionary fashion.

Point being that Via Crucis claiming even those who do not believe in Christ have their sins forgiven as well is not accurate, that their sins are still counted against them rather than being nailed to the cross and having been paid for by Jesus.

I reject the false doctrine of Limited Atonement.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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I'm not interested in dismissing God's "role" as Sovereign and Judge.

I do think, however, that ascribing to God what we only experience in this world as sadism and psychopathy is deeply disturbing.
Fallen man is in no position to judge God according to the notions of his fallen nature.
Which is why I don't think your reading of Scripture and interpretation of God's character is, in fact, biblical or consistent with the Christian Confession.
There are three perspectives on Hell that I reject:
1) I reject the idea that the wicked are obliterated or annihilated in Hell.
2) I reject the idea that everyone will, in the end, be saved.
3) I reject the idea that God tortures people in endless torment forever in Hell.
And yet, it is Jesus, not the apostles, who present the reality of hell as eternal punishment (Mt 25:46).
It is, of course, possible to find isolated passages of Scripture which many use to defend each of these three views. But I'd argue to do so requires taking some passages at the expense of others. In other words, cherry-picking Scripture.
There is no Scripture that denies God's judgment on sin.

And all Scripture is in agreement with itself when correctly understood.
If you find Scripture in disagreement, you are not understanding it correctly.
The subject of Hell is difficult. And it's why there has never been a definitive dogmatic position in the Christian Church. Dogmatically the most the Church, historically has said, is that there is indeed Judgment, and the wicked shall experience Hell.
What more needs to be said?
 
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Sabertooth

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Forgiving the unrepentant?
Yes, we need to forgive them (but not necessarily trust them going forward). They are not worth losing our Salvation over [Matthew 18:21-35].

After all, God did forgive Ahab for killing Naboth (over his vineyard) [1 Kings 21]. Ahab still died in his sins anyway.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yes, we need to forgive them (but not necessarily trust them going forward). They are not worth losing our Salvation over [Matthew 18:21-35].

After all, God did forgive Ahab for killing Naboth (over his vineyard) [1 Kings 21]. Ahab still died in his sins anyway.

1 Kings 21
27 And it came to pass, when Ahab heard those words, that he rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his flesh, and fasted, and lay in sackcloth, and went softly.
28 And the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house.

Ahab repented. So yes, God can forgive the repentant.
 
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Jamdoc

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I reject the false doctrine of Limited Atonement.

-CryptoLutheran
if God judges someone by their sins, then their sins have not been forgiven.

I don't understand how you can condemn someone over a forgiven sin. That's not forgiveness by definition.

as for the other post regarding an almost Calvinist/Arminian argument... well the bible says God chose us, and Romans 9...

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

So you have, God wants all to repent and none to be condemned, but some (most in fact) are condemned, and none can choose God unless God chooses them. so why are some created for life and others for destruction? Why are some chosen and why not others.

about the best that can be done is to think God chose who He knew would ultimately choose Him, and passed over those who would never choose Him, true.

I reject the "Irresistible Grace" because if God truly would choose everyone and grace was irresistible.. then everyone would be saved, but we know that's not true.

In that case, someone like Pharaoh who never would have chosen God, is not chosen by God for grace, and instead of giving him Grace, God hardens his heart instead. Instead, God uses Pharaoh as a display of His wrath.
So yes, in that case, God is actively doing something in Pharaoh's condemnation. He is not just passively letting Pharaoh condemn himself, but actively condemning Pharaoh.

When Job was afflicted, Job attributed his suffering to God. He did not understand why God was making him suffer, but knew God ultimately was the one who was cause for this suffering, and did not curse God for it, he cursed himself. What God had ordained Satan do to Job, might be considered cruel. But it is of paramount importance to understand that while it may seem cruel to us, God was right to do it.

God also ordained that Joshua commit genocide. To us that seems cruel, but, long point of view.. because Joshua did not fulfill it, these people groups were a pain in the side for Israel up until this day. So God was right to ordain that, and Joshua was wrong not to actually do it, and to make treaties and leagues with the people.

When Jesus returns He will tread the winepress of His wrath, and slaughter so many people that his clothes will be stained in their blood. Again it might seem cruel... but God is absolutely right to do it.

Isaiah 45
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


So ultimately.. yes, I believe that God takes active role in condemning people to a place of eternal torture, that He created.... and we have to accept that He is right to do so.

I do get it though there's a lot of people who are uncomfortable with God having wrath, with God creating a place of torture, like they, including myself at times, think it even unfair that a temporal sin has eternal punishment. But He is God, we are not, we are wrong, He is right. There's a good reason for it, even if we don't understand it.
 
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Sabertooth

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Ahab repented. So yes, God can forgive the repentant.
Ahab did not continue in his repentance and died under judgment anyway [1 Kings 22:29-37].
 
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Jamdoc

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Ahab did not continue in his repentance and died under judgment anyway [1 Kings 22:29-37].
sure, but God's forgiveness hinged on him humbling himself and repenting in the first place.
God didn't just forgive his transgression while he declared he was right in his own eyes with a stiff neck.
 
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Sabertooth

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Ahab was only forgiven of the sin he acknowledged.
That does not grant us the right to hold a grudge, however.

"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written,
'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord.​
Therefore
If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.​
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:17-21 NKJV
 
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Jamdoc

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Ahab was only forgiven of the sin he acknowledged.
That does not grant us the right to hold a grudge, however.

"Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written,
'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord.​
Therefore
If your enemy is hungry, feed him;​
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;​
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.​
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:17-21 NKJV
Well it does say that but that also does not specifically say forgive them even if they're unrepentant.

so I guess again I have to ask, are we expected to forgive what God won't?
 
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