Did Jesus sin by calling himself the savior of the world?

Jeff Saunders · Wednesday at 9:09 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jew and Gentile pretty much covers the entire spectrum of people.

And even "universalism" has distinctions. For example some universalists believe that the devil and his messengers, universally, will be in the LoF at the end of this current exercise/age.

I'd suggest almost every Christian sect is universal in this way. Devils are "universally" only disobediently evil. That's how this system is set up by God.

Some universalists stretch the point to include Satanic salvation. That seems a bit of an unjustifiable stretch to me.

I am one who believes that God will reconcile all his creation, that includes the devil and all the the fallen angels and demons. For me the reason is because of Gods character and nature, why would God create something that he would have to torcher for all eternity? If God is love, life, and life and in him is no darkness, then there is no room for eternal punishment that is darkness never-ending, sin going on forever. God will take whatever steps are necessary to reconcile all things to himself, no matter how many ages, then in the end 1Cor15:28 God will be all in all- not all in some.

Maria Billingsley · Wednesday at 9:31 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
deny their free will

I do not agree. Right at this very moment I know of a friend's father who has decided not to adhere to life saving measures to continue to live. He is slowly dying of starvation. No one is trying to save him because he has made a decision to die.
Very sad situation but his choice .

RDKirk · Wednesday at 9:34 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I am one who believes that God will reconcile all his creation, that includes the devil and all the the fallen angels and demons. For me the reason is because of Gods character and nature, why would God create something that he would have to torcher for all eternity? If God is love, life, and life and in him is no darkness, then there is no room for eternal punishment that is darkness never-ending, sin going on forever. God will take whatever steps are necessary to reconcile all things to himself, no matter how many ages, then in the end 1Cor15:28 God will be all in all- not all in some.

So, you're an absolute universalist.

But you opened the thread with a provocative question, and you've received the answer to that provocative question: "All" in the New Testament means "from every nation," not "each individual." That's because Christ's concept of saving people from every nation was antithetical to the Jewish mindset (then and, for that matter, even today), and changing that that mindset was the initial thrust of the apostolic outreach. It was most of the argument being made by Paul in Romans, and it's painfully obvious that was what most of Romans was about.

Now, that's the answer to your question.

You can accept it...or not.

Clare73 · Wednesday at 10:17 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Are we not supposed to get the definition from context and not context from the definition?

Both. . .

Jeff Saunders said:
Here is an example- The Greek word Soso , the definition is to be saved from harm or death, physical ailment , and the Christians used it for what we call salvation. Jesus used sozo after healing someone, that's not saved as in trusting Jesus for aionion life, its physically back to health, or when the disciples were in the boat and thought they were going to drown they asked Jesus to sozo them. It was also used to mean following Jesus as Lord for aionion life. The context of the verse tells the definition of the word, when the disciples thought they were going to drown they said sozo us and they were not asking for aionion sozo but they were afraid of drowning and wanted Jesus to sozo them.

Sozo is salvation from harm. . .for which the above, as well as God's judgment on sin, definitely qualities.

Jeff Saunders · Wednesday at 11:23 AM

Maria Billingsley said:
I do not agree. Right at this very moment I know of a friend's father who has decided not to adhere to life saving measures to continue to live. He is slowly dying of starvation. No one is trying to save him because he has made a decision to die.
Very sad situation but his choice .

That's comparing apples to oranges not the same as a first responder saving a person in danger.

Jeff Saunders · Wednesday at 11:55 AM

RDKirk said:
So, you're an absolute universalist.

But you opened the thread with a provocative question, and you've received the answer to that provocative question: "All" in the New Testament means "from every nation," not "each individual." That's because Christ's concept of saving people from every nation was antithetical to the Jewish mindset (then and, for that matter, even today), and changing that that mindset was the initial thrust of the apostolic outreach. It was most of the argument being made by Paul in Romans, and it's painfully obvious that was what most of Romans was about.

Now, that's the answer to your question.

You can accept it...or not.

So all only means all when it doesn't go against your tradition? Rom 11:32 For God has committed the all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. By your definition both all don't or are not the same? 1 Cor 15:22 As in Adam all died as in Christ all will live. Here the first all is the same as the last all, that's the plain reading of the text
. John 17:2 You gave him authority over all flesh that to all whom you have given him, he may give aionion life. Who is the all? John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God and was going back to God. The Father gave all flesh to Jesus and that is the same all that he will give aionion life.
Rom5:18 Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. The first all is the same all as the second.
As you can see no I do not accept it. You are doing the same thing that is done for 1 Tim 2:3-6 Its Gods will that all be saved goes against tradition so we make up two will of God, now God is in conflict with himself, do you really think that the God who knows the beginning from the end would set up a world that he has to do what he hates because he is in conflict with himself? don't let tradition blind you to the character and nature of God.

Clare73 · Wednesday at 1:28 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes there are those who don't know they need saving and will fight the first responder, but as trained lifesavers you deny their free will and do whatever you have to to save that person even if it means you give up your life in the process. If mortal humans can save, even those who don't wont to be saved or even know they need saving, do you not think our creator is lesser than mortal humans.

God's ways are not based on human reason. . .
Our ways are not his ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts.
His ways are higher than our ways. . .and his thoughts higher than our thoughts (Isa 55:8-9).

Jeff Saunders said:
that an all loving creator, who wants all to be saved, and has all the power and will to do it, will make a way to get the job done. And he has, that's why scripture says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" Jesus is the truest first responder who will save all his creation.

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 4:56 AM

Maria Billingsley said:
This is the core of Calvinist theology in which I do not adhere to.
Thanks for sharing.
Blessings

It doesn't seem to be in accordance with being God to be ruled out of any action in His creation or ruled out by His creations

IF there is evil, God set the wheels in motion

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Choosing any of them doesn't eliminate the others either

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 5:10 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I am one who believes that God will reconcile all his creation, that includes the devil and all the the fallen angels and demons. For me the reason is because of Gods character and nature, why would God create something that he would have to torcher for all eternity?

Nice spin on "torcher/torture."

I've considered that angle at length. An "antiChrist" or "disobedient spirit" is some type of influence that acts in an opposing to God manner and can do no other action. In this way these things, whatever they are, are not and can not decide to do otherwise.

Robotic in every way. And if this is the case they can merely be turned off upon completion of uses. Just as death and hell will be turned off. There is no need to reconstitute these "powers" when God is done using them. An adverse spiritual power is not in need of salvation. It will simply find it's use terminated by our Maker and shut down forever and ever, no longer needed. And the results of every aspect of what this power did will stand in perpetual judgment of every adverse thing having been played out in real time and real circumstances.

Besides the fact that you'll never convince any believer of Satanic salvation because there is no specific mention of it in the scriptures and many references of the opposite fate of eternal bye bye

It's nothing personal. I have many universalist friends who continue to bang their heads against the Satanic salvation wall... You must realize by now that it's a general hindrance to carry around and no one has ever converted a demon in any case :hug:

Maria Billingsley · Thursday at 7:36 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
It doesn't seem to be in accordance with being God to be ruled out of any action in His creation or ruled out by His creations

IF there is evil, God set the wheels in motion

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Choosing any of them doesn't eliminate the others either

This would imply God is actively initiating, encouraging, or orchestrating evil acts. This is not consistent with the understanding of a benevolent and Holy God.
Deuteronomy must be taken in its full context; the consequences of sin brings about judgment which can be perceived as evil. The "Curses" spoken of by Moses, (as a consequence of sin), are the negative repercussions that naturally or divinely follow from disobedience or actions contrary to God's will. It is not about God directly causing evil it is about the inherent fallout of straying from obedience.
To understand this otherwise is claiming God is the author of evil which is sin.

Jeff Saunders · Thursday at 9:55 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Nice spin on "torcher/torture."

I've considered that angle at length. An "antiChrist" or "disobedient spirit" is some type of influence that acts in an opposing to God manner and can do no other action. In this way these things, whatever they are, are not and can not decide to do otherwise.

Robotic in every way. And if this is the case they can merely be turned off upon completion of uses. Just as death and hell will be turned off. There is no need to reconstitute these "powers" when God is done using them. An adverse spiritual power is not in need of salvation. It will simply find it's use terminated by our Maker and shut down forever and ever, no longer needed. And the results of every aspect of what this power did will stand in perpetual judgment of every adverse thing having been played out in real time and real circumstances.

Besides the fact that you'll never convince any believer of Satanic salvation because there is no specific mention of it in the scriptures and many references of the opposite fate of eternal bye bye

It's nothing personal. I have many universalist friends who continue to bang their heads against the Satanic salvation wall... You must realize by now that it's a general hindrance to carry around and no one has ever converted a demon in any case

If the "evil" things that we deal with are not sentient I have a hard time believing that the God of absolute love would create something that he has to burn and keep alive for all eternity, if not a sentient being like a bug, say a maggot that its purpose is to eat the decaying thing and then die having served its purpose, then annihilation of that being to me would be no problem and does not harm the nature and character of God.
For there not being any scripture directly stating Satan being reconcile, to me its hard to leave the enemy out of the reconciliation of all things.

Jeff Saunders · Thursday at 11:10 AM

Maria Billingsley said:
This would imply God is actively initiating, encouraging, or orchestrating evil acts. This is not consistent with the understanding of a benevolent and Holy God.
Deuteronomy must be taken in its full context; the consequences of sin brings about judgment which can be perceived as evil. The "Curses" spoken of by Moses, (as a consequence of sin), are the negative repercussions that naturally or divinely follow from disobedience or actions contrary to God's will. It is not about God directly causing evil it is about the inherent fallout of straying from obedience.
To understand this otherwise is claiming God is the author of evil which is sin.

God is the author of all things, if not then there are more than one entities that have creation power not just the power to manipulate what's already been created, scripture tells us all things were created by Jesus for Jesus and he holds all things together, nothing was created that was not created by him. I believe evil is not a thing but is just any action that goes against Gods nature and design. If this way is correct then yes God is the author of "evil" because he gave us free will to choose or reject him. Evil is serving God in showing us what its like in a world that is not 100% running in the character and nature of God, which is love, light, and life. That is why when as scripture tells us in 1Cor 15:28 in the end God will be all in all, at that point all of creation will, as scripture says, "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is lord " after this comes the New Earth and New Heaven and evil will be no more, all will have experienced evil and the ramification of it and as a whole will reject it forever. God has told us his telos and that is the reconciliation of all his creation and it will be done.

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 8:30 PM

Maria Billingsley said:
This would imply God is actively initiating, encouraging, or orchestrating evil acts.

All of creation is automatically less than God. Evil is just further down on the scale of less than God

That's why God's Mercy has to endure forever or nothing would even exist

Maria Billingsley said:
Deuteronomy must be taken in its full context; the consequences of sin brings about judgment which can be perceived as evil.

There is no logic involved with trying to isolate God from His Own creation. He's directly on the hook for everything that transpires herein OR such a God that is not is simply out of control, and no God whatsoever

Maria Billingsley said:
disobedience or actions contrary to God's will.

It was in fact God's Will to bind everyone to disobedience. IF He didn't IT wouldn't exist

Maria Billingsley said:
straying from obedience

No one makes the disobedience we are all bound to obedient

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Maria Billingsley said:
To understand this otherwise is claiming God is the author of evil which is sin.

As stated prior. Anything that is in God's creation God is responsible for OR He's out of control, isolated and powerless

BelieveItOarKnot · Thursday at 8:32 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
If the "evil" things that we deal with are not sentient I have a hard time believing that the God of absolute love would create something that he has to burn and keep alive for all eternity,

As stated prior, it can just as easily be thought of as a type of spiritual robot. Sentience is not required.

Putting it away along with death and hell in a lake of fire isn't an issue. It's just permanently gone,

FireDragon76 · Thursday at 8:45 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
Sin is missing the mark, its a archery term meaning that you did not hit what you were aiming for. John 12:47 says Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it, /
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and save the lost. John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ the savior of the world.
If you believe that most of the people that God creates will be in torcher forever or annihilated then Jesus did not hit the mark.

1) This isn't a necessary conclusion of Christian belief. We don't know that most people who have ever lived are among the reprobate or damned.

2) God isn't obligated to save anyone. Salvation is the result of grace.

3) Faith is about relational trust (trusting a person), it isn't about intellectual certainty, as if soteriology were a puzzle to solve.

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 9:21 AM

FireDragon76 said:
1) This isn't a necessary conclusion of Christian belief. We don't know that most people who have ever lived are among the reprobate or damned.

2) God isn't obligated to save anyone. Salvation is the result of grace.

3) Faith is about relational trust (trusting a person), it isn't about intellectual certainty, as if soteriology were a puzzle to solve.

1) We do know that in this age the followers of Jesus will be few Matt 7 narrow path that few find.
2)Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. God is the cause of all things, it is he who bound all to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all, that would make him obligated to save all as he is the creator of all.
3) Yes faith is about relational trust, child like faith. God is infinite we are finite and our minds can't grasp the infinite to even have intellectual certainty, that is why Jesus said unless you have faith like a little child you can't enter into the Kingdome.

BelieveItOarKnot · Sunday at 6:45 AM

FireDragon76 said:
1) This isn't a necessary conclusion of Christian belief. We don't know that most people who have ever lived are among the reprobate or damned.

The above has actually been the conclusion of all other than God Himself in the flesh. Romans 3:9, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 etc.

What most miss is that the disobedience we are all bound with has never been of the person, the individual, the child of God. It's the spirit of disobedience, meaning the tempter, the devil. The captor of all mankind, per the above citings

When we are "saved" we are led eventually to either see our condition and that it still remains, or we fall into complete denial.

FireDragon76 said:
2) God isn't obligated to save anyone. Salvation is the result of grace.

Jesus came to save. I'd suggest that was always the plan

FireDragon76 said:
3) Faith is about relational trust (trusting a person), it isn't about intellectual certainty, as if soteriology were a puzzle to solve.

IF we can't trust God who can we trust?

IF we are not certain it means such faith is tainted with doubt

Clare73 · Sunday at 1:53 PM

FireDragon76 said:
1) This isn't a necessary conclusion of Christian belief. We don't know that most people who have ever lived are among the reprobate or damned.

2) God isn't obligated to save anyone. Salvation is the result of grace.

3) Faith is about relational trust (trusting a person), it isn't about intellectual certainty, as if soteriology were a puzzle to solve.

Faith has content, and can be true faith or false faith.

If you are "trusting" Jesus to save you as you continue in your lifestyle of disobedience and sin, your faith is counterfeit and does not save.

Did Jesus sin by calling himself the savior of the world?

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