What warning would you give to Baptists and Calvinists?

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved
People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.
What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.
Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.
Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

Make your calling and election sure (2 Pe 1:10-11).

I am not a Baptist or Calvinist.

I am actually Free Grace, but any person who has believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Has at the very moment of belief in Jesus. Crossed over from death to life and will not come into to judgment.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And there is not a single verse in The Bible that states a born again child of God can cross back over from life to death and come into judgment.

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People who believe they can lose Eternal Life salvation. Is more than likely believing in a works based Eternal Life salvation, where their whole life will be judged to see if they were obedient enough in their earthly lives to Jesus. To see if they will be judged to receive Eternal Life at a final judgment.

Which is a satanic lie.

If a person does not have assurance of Eternal Life salvation, then more than likely they have not believed in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. Because Jesus states if a person believes in Him they have Eternal Life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

So if they believe they can lose their Eternal Life salvation they are basically saying to Jesus. No i do not believe what you said in John 11:25, 26

Good day,

I always refer Baptist to the London Baptist confession of faith, regardless if they hold to historical doctrines of Grace or not.

In Him,

Bill

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved

People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.

What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.

Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.

Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

Calvinists (and some Baptists) do not believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved". Instead they believe in the perseverance of the saints (the "P" in TULIP). Once Saved, Always Save, would state that one could walk away from the faith or just divorce yourself from it, falling into a carnal state, yet still be saved. Perseverance of the saints says that once you truly come to a saving knowledge of Christ, you will persevere to the end. You might stumble and fall, but you will persevere in your faith and continue to do good works to the end. This is because the Holy Spirit will continue to work in you.

While these two doctrine give the appearance of being the same, they are not.

Westminster Confession of Faith on Perseverance of the Saints

1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.a

a. John 10:28-29; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:5, 9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 3:9.

2. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;a upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;b the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them;c and the nature of the covenant of grace:d from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.e

a. Jer 31:3; 2 Tim 2:18-19. • b. Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Heb 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; Rom 8:33-39. • c. John 14:16-17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9. • d. Jer 32:40. • e. John 10:28; 2 Thes 3:3; 1 John 2:19.

3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;a and for a time continue therein:b whereby they incur God’s displeasure,c and grieve his Holy Spirit;d come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts;e have their hearts hardened,f and their consciences wounded;g hurt and scandalize others,h and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.i

a. Mat 26:70, 72, 74. • b. Psa 51 title with v. 14. • c. 2 Sam 11:27; Isa 64:5, 7, 9. • d. Eph 4:30. • e. Psa 51:8, 10, 12; Song 5:2-4, 6; Rev 2:4. • f. Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14. • g. Psa 32:3-4; 51:8. • h. 2 Sam 12:14. • i. Psa 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32.

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved

People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.

What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.

Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.

Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved

People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.

What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.

Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.

Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

A person can only be born physically once and a person can only be born spiritually once because CHRIST ONLY HAD TO DIE ONCE.

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved

People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.

What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.

Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.

Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

John 10:28-29, where Jesus says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." This clearly emphasizes the permanence and security of salvation for those who are truly saved. Salvation is God’s work, not ours, and His promises never fail.

To believe that you can lose your salvation implies doubting God's promises and the sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross. Scripture affirms in passages like Hebrews 10:14, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy," and Philippians 1:6, "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." God’s promises are sure, and questioning them undermines His truthfulness and sovereignty

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved

People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.

What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.

Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.

Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

To debate what. The advice?

You do know that we believe in once saved always saved because it's in the Bible.

So for those who don't believe in Scripture, I don't think they have anything to add to Jesus' words that He will lose not one the Father gave in His Hand.

As Scripture says, if even an angel from heaven tells you a different gospel...so, not much to say.

We believe in the promise of God.

HarleyER said:

1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

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It seems like the only difference between perseverance of the saints and OSAS is that OSAS would say those who totally and finally fall away are still saved nevertheless, while perseverance of the saints says that those people were never actually saved because they weren't true Scotsmen saints.

jas3 said:

It seems like the only difference between perseverance of the saints and OSAS is that OSAS would say those who totally and finally fall away are still saved nevertheless, while perseverance of the saints says that those people were never actually saved because they weren't true Scotsmen saints.

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No... Once saved always saved says those who fall away were never saved at all. We either die in Christ or we weren't saved. It's perseverance of the saints in modern wording I think, because they say the same. If someone falls away they weren't saved.






James 1:22: "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves"

Galatians 6:3: "For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself"

1 Corinthians 3:18: "Let no man deceive himself"

Hazelelponi said:

No... Once saved always saved says those who fall away were never saved at all. We either die in Christ or we weren't saved. It's perseverance of the saints in modern wording I think, because they say the same. If someone falls away they weren't saved.






James 1:22: "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves"

Galatians 6:3: "For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself"

1 Corinthians 3:18: "Let no man deceive himself"

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Ever heard of the prodigal son? Perhaps even myself who FELL AWAY for 20 yrs in addiction...not ONE day in all my torment I put myself through and sin I was living in did the conviction of God EVER leave me, the Holy Spirits song in my heart NEVER stopped, the PULL of the Spirit to return to the Lord NEVER ceased nor did I ever feel the Lord stop calling me to repent. I fought it for 20 yrs and by the grace of God was brought back! I knew I had salvation and I know that someone who truly sincerely called upon Christ for salvation ALWAYS REMAINS HIS even if they fall away in sin for a season!

The fact many here think salvation can be lost is an insult to the finished work of the LORD upon the cross and it is heresy to assume someone who truly called upon the name of the LORD can be locked out of the family of God.

Just because a child rebels in foolishness for a time does not mean they will be kicked out of the family of God. They will reap what they sow yes but never will they be cast out from Christ's finished saving work.

It's insulting to Christ and shows that He is unfaithful in His promise.

What fear many who think like this must have in each day tormented by questioning whether they will lose their salvation each day if they don't act, feel or believe a certain way rather than just rest in the promise of God that a child will NEVER be taken away from Him..

You can only be born physically and spiritually ONCE.

Former Opiate Addict said:

Ever heard of the prodigal son? Perhaps even myself who FELL AWAY for 20 yrs in addiction...not ONE day in all my torment I put myself through and sin I was living in did the conviction of God EVER leave me, the Holy Spirits song in my heart NEVER stopped, the PULL of the Spirit to return to the Lord NEVER ceased nor did I ever feel the Lord stop calling me to repent. I fought it for 20 yrs and by the grace of God was brought back! I knew I had salvation and I know that someone who truly sincerely called upon Christ for salvation ALWAYS REMAINS HIS even if they fall away in sin for a season!

The fact many here think salvation can be lost is an insult to the finished work of the LORD upon the cross and it is heresy to assume someone who truly called upon the name of the LORD can be locked out of the family of God.

Just because a child rebels in foolishness for a time does not mean they will be kicked out of the family of God. They will reap what they sow yes but never will they be cast out from Christ's finished saving work.

It's insulting to Christ and shows that He is unfaithful in His promise.

What fear many who think like this must have in each day tormented by questioning whether they will lose their salvation each day if they don't act, feel or believe a certain way rather than just rest in the promise of God that a child will NEVER be taken away from Him..

You can only be born physically and spiritually ONCE.

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And don't forget Paul the Apostle when he was teaching on church discipline. He was saying that those in sin should be given over to Satan (removed from fellowship) in the hopes of God bringing them back in. 1 Corinthians 5:5

God is faithful and will bring us home...

jas3 said:

It seems like the only difference between perseverance of the saints and OSAS is that OSAS would say those who totally and finally fall away are still saved nevertheless, while perseverance of the saints says that those people were never actually saved because they weren't true Scotsmen saints.

Click to expand...

It is a very fine distinction but an important one.

It makes more sense from the verse, "If you love me you would obey my commandments" (John 14:15). A POTS sees this command to say that a true Christian will always love Christ and, even remotely, keep his life relatively stained from sin. From an OSAS point of view, they would just chuck the whole thing illustrating that they never really loved Christ in the first place.

Christ had many disciples at the beginning of His ministry. Most fell away. (John 6)

Hazelelponi said:

No... Once saved always saved says those who fall away were never saved at all. We either die in Christ or we weren't saved. It's perseverance of the saints in modern wording I think, because they say the same. If someone falls away they weren't saved.






James 1:22: "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves"

Galatians 6:3: "For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself"

1 Corinthians 3:18: "Let no man deceive himself"

Click to expand...

I guess the prodigal son is untrue then huh?

Former Opiate Addict said:

I guess the prodigal son is untrue then huh?

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It's perfectly true. There's nothing in Scripture that says we can't backslide for a hot minute during our lifetime. In fact, the prodigal son is proof we can.

Jesus Christ does not fail to save His people, if He for His own purposes allows one to fall away before bringing them back in, in order to teach them some thing or things He has that right... He is our Creator, and He spends our lives recreating us into something fit for His use.

Some people are just harder headed. We are what we are. It is to use to allow God's teachings to teach us rightly, instead of bucking against the goad. Acts 26:14

Jesus said in Matthew my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

For the slave to sin that sounds awesome, to the one who's never known anything but that easy yoke, well, it's still a yoke, and some might kick more than others, at least until they understand it.

I do believe that God is faithful, even when we aren't. It's a pretty common theme throughout Scriptures.

A good book to read is Pilgrims progress.

A person can lose their salvation the scripture is clear on that (there are many such scriptures).

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

However, I do not believe there is a point that: "while we live where we can not be forgiven". While we have breath in our lungs God is both faithful and just to forgive us if we truly seek it.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

When referencing Hebrews 6, it pays to consider:

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

The cross covers a lifetime of sins, from the point of birth to death.

In Hebrews 6:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

In order to crucify christ again, one must technically have died in sin. I believe this is the warning of Hebrews 6, a genuine blood-bought believer can fall away (and die in their sins) and be eternally lost, with no way of repenting.

But while we live, if we confess our sins God is faithful to forgive us and put us on the right path again.

FutureAndAHope said:

A person can lose their salvation the scripture is clear on that (there are many such scriptures).

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

However, I do not believe there is a point that: "while we live where we can not be forgiven". While we have breath in our lungs God is both faithful and just to forgive us if we truly seek it.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

When referencing Hebrews 6, it pays to consider:

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

The cross covers a lifetime of sins, from the point of birth to death.

In Hebrews 6:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

In order to crucify christ again, one must technically have died in sin. I believe this is the warning of Hebrews 6, a genuine blood-bought believer can fall away (and die in their sins) and be eternally lost, with no way of repenting.

But while we live, if we confess our sins God is faithful to forgive us and put us on the right path again.

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All of verse quoted are for Israel and I remember asking my Pastor that I head on the radio , about OSAS and asked

him these people were , And he said , WE DO , and never explained why , and that was in 1960 .

And when reading Gal 3:28 Ye // HYMEIS , is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN , in the NOMIATIVE CASE , in the PLURAL

ARE // ESTE a verb in the PRESENT TENSE , in the INDICATIVE MOOD , which means you better believe this verse

in the PLURAL

Are ALL // PAS , in the NOMIATIVE CASE , in the Plural , meaning it includes all in the Body of Christ

ONE // HEIS , , in the NOMINATIVE CASE in the PLURAL

IN Christ // CHRISTMOS , in the DATIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR

Then in 1 Cor 12:13 WE are all PLACED into the Body of Christ and we all become His FOOT , his EYES , his SENSE

of HEARING and SENSE of SMELL !!

And if we can LEAVE , which part can LEAVES ??

So what verses are there AGAINST OSAS , will you please show verse ?

dan p

JohnB445 said:

They believe in Once Saved Always Saved

People warn about Christians losing their salvation, and never being able to get it back.

What warnings do you have, and your advice on how to prevent loss of salvation if that is what you believe can happen.

Losing salvation is serious topic, it's not losing your car keys or your limbs, it is your soul for eternity. So what would you like to share.

Baptists and Calvinists are welcome here to debate

Click to expand...

I look at salvation as being the same quality of life that God has, since we are given the life and inheritance of Jesus Christ after being born again through the Holy Spirit.

If salvation can be lost, this poses the question: does this mean the eternal God can die?

Dan Perez said:

All of verse quoted are for Israel and I remember asking my Pastor that I head on the radio , about OSAS and asked

him these people were , And he said , WE DO , and never explained why , and that was in 1960 .

And when reading Gal 3:28 Ye // HYMEIS , is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN , in the NOMIATIVE CASE , in the PLURAL

ARE // ESTE a verb in the PRESENT TENSE , in the INDICATIVE MOOD , which means you better believe this verse

in the PLURAL

Are ALL // PAS , in the NOMIATIVE CASE , in the Plural , meaning it includes all in the Body of Christ

ONE // HEIS , , in the NOMINATIVE CASE in the PLURAL

IN Christ // CHRISTMOS , in the DATIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR

Then in 1 Cor 12:13 WE are all PLACED into the Body of Christ and we all become His FOOT , his EYES , his SENSE

of HEARING and SENSE of SMELL !!

And if we can be LEAVE , which part is LEAVES ??

So what verses are there AGAINST OSAS , will you please show verse ?

dan p

Click to expand...

Paul knew he could be disqualified if he did not bring his body (desires) into subjection.

If we persist in sin and bear weeds, we can fall away, and if we continue in an unrepentant state will be lost:


The following shows believers can be entangled in their sins and lost.





There are others as well, but I can’t remember the references off the top of my head. I would also encourage you to read the counterargument to Predestination in my free online resource at The Way and Free Will

d taylor said:

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​

I am not a Baptist or Calvinist.

I am actually Free Grace, but any person who has believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. Has at the very moment of belief in Jesus. Crossed over from death to life and will not come into to judgment.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And there is not a single verse in The Bible that states a born again child of God can cross back over from life to death and come into judgment.

-----------------------------------

People who believe they can lose Eternal Life salvation. Is more than likely believing in a works based Eternal Life salvation, where their whole life will be judged to see if they were obedient enough in their earthly lives to Jesus. To see if they will be judged to receive Eternal Life at a final judgment.

Which is a satanic lie.

If a person does not have assurance of Eternal Life salvation, then more than likely they have not believed in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation. Because Jesus states if a person believes in Him they have Eternal Life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

So if they believe they can lose their Eternal Life salvation they are basically saying to Jesus. No i do not believe what you said in John 11:25, 26

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Satan is an angel, he has seen God. He knows God. He believes God exists, He knows Christ.
The demons BELIEVE. They will not submit. Clearly the word believe is not just a word, it is a surrender of the reins to the Spirit of God.

Mat 15:8
‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.”

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and dug deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

James 2:18
Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?