PCUSA backs Episcopal Bishop Mariann Budde who rebuked Trump in sermon

HIM · Feb 4, 2025

Fantine said:
There are many expressions of Christianity, all leading people to Christ

That is not true.

eclipsenow · Feb 5, 2025

BPPLEE said:
It is part of my responsibility as a Christian to take care of my own family.
If I spent all my time with my youth group while neglecting my own son that wouldn't have been something that God wanted me to do.
God wants us to run our own families well as a sign that we are fit for ministry. If a man neglects his own family he is not fit for ministry

Tools
1Ti 3:4 - One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Tools
1Ti 3:5 - (For if a man know-not how to rule his own house,how shall he take care of the church of God?)

And yet - we're talking about a 'Christian country' that elected Mr Trump - whose personal failings are legendary, who tear gases protestors to get a weird shot of him holding a bible weirdly in front of a church he hardly ever visits - and who plays to Christian crowds - who then get him elected.

And the first thing is to militarize the borders, and devastate global foreign aid.

What a proud moment for a "Christian" nation! Let me guess. He wants to move all Palestinians out of the middle east and oversee construction in it? I think he's got eyes on ruling from there! :oldthumbsup:

(Not really - I'm Amil. Just jokes.)

eclipsenow · Feb 5, 2025

HIM said:
That is not true.

If by 'expressions' we mean Christians working out how the actual gospel works in their culture, then yes, it is true.

eclipsenow · Feb 5, 2025

Truth7t7 said:
Deacons are to be married "Men"

Nope. That verse is emphasising IF married they must be faithful, and running their household well. I cannot see that verse actually commanding that all deacons must be married men. Why? Because he clearly calls Pheobe a diakonon in Romans 16:1.

Before we address 1 Cor 14 - what about 1 Cor 11? Again - Paul is concerned about order - in this case authority being expressed in culturally appropriate ways. Oh - but look at what he just assumes is going on?

1 Cor 11:

2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Prophesying in a church hey? Wow - that involves speech!

So we'll get to 1 Cor 14 in a minute - but first - how about Romans 16:1 and 1 Cor 11 hey? Crazy stuff. Or are you saying the bible contradicts itself?

Oh - and here's another thought

Truth7t7 · Feb 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Nope. That verse is emphasising IF married they must be faithful, and running their household well. I cannot see that verse actually commanding that all deacons must be married men. Why? Because he clearly calls Pheobe a diakonon in Romans 16:1.

Before we address 1 Cor 14 - what about 1 Cor 11? Again - Paul is concerned about order - in this case authority being expressed in culturally appropriate ways. Oh - but look at what he just assumes is going on?

1 Cor 11:

2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Prophesying in a church hey? Wow - that involves speech!

So we'll get to 1 Cor 14 in a minute - but first - how about Romans 16:1 and 1 Cor 11 hey? Crazy stuff. Or are you saying the bible contradicts itself?

Oh - and here's another thought

View attachment 360676

Of course Gods word Excludes Women From Being Bishops and Deacons, they are to be married "Men", simple and clear

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Timothy 3:1-2KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Women are to keep silent in the church, and commanded to be obedient

1 Corinthians 14:33-34KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

jas3 · Feb 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Oh - and here's another thought

Now that is a wild fabrication and I'm sure neither you nor he could back up the claim that women were ordained even as deacons, let alone priests or bishops.

Truth7t7 · Feb 5, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
On the left, there are progressive Christians who believe that abortion, homosexuality, and same-sex marriage are acceptable in the Bible as long as the principles of social justice in the Bible are preached and practiced.

I know many God fearing Christians that would claim those described above as wolves in sheep's clothing in Sodom & Gomorrah, and aren't even part of God's Church on earth

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Peter 2:6KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Romans 1:24-32KJV
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerci
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

eclipsenow · Feb 5, 2025

Truth7t7 said:
Of course Gods word Excludes Women From Being Bishops and Deacons, they are to be married "Men", simple and clear

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Timothy 3:1-2KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Women are to keep silent in the church, and commanded to be obedient

1 Corinthians 14:33-34KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Ah - I see! If you repeat YOUR verses that back YOUR position 3 times - then the other verses in the bible just fall out?

You've just made scripture contradict itself.
Hey - if I highlight the relevant bits in MY verses - does it make them truer-er? :oldthumbsup:

Yes, Jesus is the Messiah and Lord - which is why we need to respect ALL of his word - not just the bits that might make us feel comfortable. Especially if we're sitting comfortably in some kind of sad cultural remnant that might just be a huge, horrible and prejudiced blind spot the church has carried for generations. Don't you think such a bad witness might be worth sitting back and asking - wow - what if I'm wrong? What if Complementarianism is right - but not quite as horrifically strict as my 'tribe' might have been expressing it?

There is nuance here.

Because Paul DID call Phoebe a deacon - even if you do a rinse and repeat of YOUR verses. Highlighted in red to make them truer-er!
Also - what is with some Christians thinking quoting an olde-fashioned interpretation makes it more true-eth? If you can't handle the NIV for some reason - try the ESV. It's one of the most technically accurate translations - even if it is a little dry to read. For instance - this is how the ESV renders Romans 16:1 - one of those other verses in the bible! :oldthumbsup:

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,

The footnote says: Romans 16:1 Or deaconess - because as I linked above - the word is diakonon in Romans 16:1.

The NIV just says it!

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

The NIV footnote says:
The word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.

So let's check them!

Philemon 1:1: "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons,

Nothing about gender there!

1 Timothy:

3 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

OK - on face value Overseer seems to be a man - but again - that's just face value. It could be a cultural way of speaking like 'mankind' or 'he' representing all Overseers.

But deacon in verse 8 is neutral.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

So here it switches between women and deacons again. The NIV footnotes say:

1 Timothy 3:8 The word deacons refers here to Christians designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in verse 12; and in Romans 16:1 and Phil. 1:1.

And of women in 11 above?

1 Timothy 3:11 Possibly deacons’ wives or women who are deacons

Oh wow - look - even the NIV footnotes acknowledge that while there might be some extra authority in Paul's designating of 'teaching' to men - women can be deacons and prophets!

The NIV on Romans 16:1 again:

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

1 Cor 11:

4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

My understanding of prophecy in the New Testament is that it is basically taking the established gospel truths, and applying them to the challenges and circumstances of the day. It is a speaking ministry! But "teaching" in some verses may actually be about laying down those gospel truths - establishing the foundations. That is the job of the apostles - who were obviously all men! So what if any verses about 'teaching' being forbidden to women were actually about establishing the foundational truths - but this prophecy business is actually just what we would think of today as a sermon?

In that case - either the bible is contradicting itself - or 1 Cor 14 is talking about matters of disorderly conduct between husbands and wives in the church.

Because Paul shows women were deacons AND prophets.
Oops. Your turn.

Please - go ahead and just copy and paste YOUR verses again. It will reveal you are out of ammo and just have no reply to what the rest of the bible actually says.

Fantine · Feb 5, 2025

I tend to look at the Bible in its historic context, realizing the enormous changes in civilization.
I trust theologians who pray and discern how a situation would be addressed rather than those who take it all at face value.

Truth7t7 · Feb 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Ah - I see! If you repeat YOUR verses that back YOUR position 3 times - then the other verses in the bible just fall out?

You've just made scripture contradict itself.
Hey - if I highlight the relevant bits in MY verses - does it make them truer-er?

Yes, Jesus is the Messiah and Lord - which is why we need to respect ALL of his word - not just the bits that might make us feel comfortable. Especially if we're sitting comfortably in some kind of sad cultural remnant that might just be a huge, horrible and prejudiced blind spot the church has carried for generations. Don't you think such a bad witness might be worth sitting back and asking - wow - what if I'm wrong? What if Complementarianism is right - but not quite as horrifically strict as my 'tribe' might have been expressing it?

There is nuance here.

Because Paul DID call Phoebe a deacon - even if you do a rinse and repeat of YOUR verses. Highlighted in red to make them truer-er!
Also - what is with some Christians thinking quoting an olde-fashioned interpretation makes it more true-eth? If you can't handle the NIV for some reason - try the ESV. It's one of the most technically accurate translations - even if it is a little dry to read. For instance - this is how the ESV renders Romans 16:1 - one of those other verses in the bible!

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,

The footnote says: Romans 16:1 Or deaconess - because as I linked above - the word is diakonon in Romans 16:1.

The NIV just says it!

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

The NIV footnote says:
The word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.

So let's check them!

Philemon 1:1: "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons,

Nothing about gender there!

1 Timothy:

3 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

OK - on face value Overseer seems to be a man - but again - that's just face value. It could be a cultural way of speaking like 'mankind' or 'he' representing all Overseers.

But deacon in verse 8 is neutral.

8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.

12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

So here it switches between women and deacons again. The NIV footnotes say:

1 Timothy 3:8 The word deacons refers here to Christians designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in verse 12; and in Romans 16:1 and Phil. 1:1.

And of women in 11 above?

1 Timothy 3:11 Possibly deacons’ wives or women who are deacons

Oh wow - look - even the NIV footnotes acknowledge that while there might be some extra authority in Paul's designating of 'teaching' to men - women can be deacons and prophets!

The NIV on Romans 16:1 again:

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

1 Cor 11:

4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

My understanding of prophecy in the New Testament is that it is basically taking the established gospel truths, and applying them to the challenges and circumstances of the day. It is a speaking ministry! But "teaching" in some verses may actually be about laying down those gospel truths - establishing the foundations. That is the job of the apostles - who were obviously all men! So what if any verses about 'teaching' being forbidden to women were actually about establishing the foundational truths - but this prophecy business is actually just what we would think of today as a sermon?

In that case - either the bible is contradicting itself - or 1 Cor 14 is talking about matters of disorderly conduct between husbands and wives in the church.

Because Paul shows women were deacons AND prophets.
Oops. Your turn.

Please - go ahead and just copy and paste YOUR verses again. It will reveal you are out of ammo and just have no reply to what the rest of the bible actually says.

Sorry, Bishops and Deacons are to be married "Men", and women are commanded to be silent in the church as scripture clearly teaches

Fantine · Feb 5, 2025

Truth7t7 said:
Sorry, Bishops and Deacons are to be married "Men"

Not if the bishops are Catholic.

Michie · Feb 5, 2025

Fantine said:
Not if the bishops are Catholic.

Still men.

HIM · Feb 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
If by 'expressions' we mean Christians working out how the actual gospel works in their culture, then yes, it is true.

No culture is dictated by Christ for a Christian. Not the other way around

HIM · Feb 5, 2025

Fantine said:
I tend to look at the Bible in its historic context, realizing the enormous changes in civilization.
I trust theologians who pray and discern how a situation would be addressed rather than those who take it all at face value.

We are not to trust men

Paidiske · Feb 5, 2025

HIM said:
No culture is dictated by Christ for a Christian. Not the other way around

If that were true, we'd all be speaking Aramaic, worshipping in the synagogue, eating the diet, engaging in the means of making a living, and observing the clothing habits of first-century Judea, and so on.

Culture changes. Christians have been culturally diverse since the first evangelists moved throughout the Roman Empire and beyond it. Enculturation - working out how the gospel is expressed and lived out faithfully in different cultures - has always been a conflicted reality (one person's "too far" being someone else's "not far enough," and so on), but that it has been a reality for two millennia of Christian history is just reality.

jas3 · Feb 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Especially if we're sitting comfortably in some kind of sad cultural remnant that might just be a huge, horrible and prejudiced blind spot the church has carried for generations.

This is the problem with theological liberalism: it denies the article of the Creed about the Church being holy. In the mind of the theological liberal, the Church is not established by God as Matt. 16:18 says, not guided by the Holy Spirit as was promised in John 16:13, not the pillar and ground of truth as stated in 1 Tim. 3:15. Instead, it's envisioned as a purely human institution, liable to fall into error for thousands of years.

eclipsenow said:
For instance - this is how the ESV renders Romans 16:1 - one of those other verses in the bible!

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae,
The footnote says: Romans 16:1 Or deaconess - because as I linked above - the word is diakonon in Romans 16:1.

Yes, because διάκονον means "servant," it doesn't imply ordination, no matter how many times you repeat your one verse and highlight your preferred translation of the word.

eclipsenow said:
The NIV just says it!

The NIV doesn't exactly have a great reputation for accuracy.

eclipsenow said:
OK - on face value Overseer seems to be a man - but again - that's just face value. It could be a cultural way of speaking like 'mankind' or 'he' representing all Overseers.

This is the kind of specious argumentation all advocates of women's ordination have to employ. "The text does say man, and it does say husband of one wife, but did God really say that?" This may be convincing to people who have no background in Christian history, but anyone who has even a passing knowledge of ante-Nicene Christianity knows that the idea that there were Christian priestesses and female bishops is ahistorical nonsense on the level of The Da Vinci Code.

Michie · Feb 5, 2025

Genesis 3:1

Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?

Truth7t7 · Feb 6, 2025

Paidiske said:
Culture changes.

God's word doesn't change, Bishops and Deacons are to be married "Men", women are commanded to be silent in the church

There were two sexes in the creation named Adam and Eve and these same two sexes exist today, Male and Female

Fantine · Feb 6, 2025

Can you not respect Paidiske's and Bishop Budde's faith? Episcopal. Not everyone's relationship with God thrives in rigidity and absolutism. I am glad there are many Christian pathways to God because the encounter is so transformative.

Paidiske · Feb 6, 2025

Truth7t7 said:
God's word doesn't change,

That was not the point I was making.

Truth7t7 said:
Bishops and Deacons are to be married "Men", women are commanded to be silent in the church

You and I have disagreed on these points before, and I see little benefit to rehashing the arguments, especially since they are basically off-topic.

PCUSA backs Episcopal Bishop Mariann Budde who rebuked Trump in sermon

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