I was specifically talking about the dominance of males in the old and new testament and summizing why men were dominant. I have researched this and found the common explanation apart from other reasons was that the establishing of Gods people and church was wrought through combat and standing up to oppressive forces that mainly came from males in the pagan world.
So for these situations there was a gendered requirement. But that doesn't mean the exceptions of some remarkable women in the bible. Just that because males suited this role most of the time you are going to end up with a dominance of males at the extreme. At the point when it counted in defending God which often decended into physical threats and warfare.
I understand your point about the historical context, ancient cultures often subjugated, undermined and undervalued women at the expense of male dominance. But I'm concerned that your conclusion jumps from the past to the present without considering the complexities of biblical interpretation. To carefully examine the scriptural teachings, recognizing how God's revelation progressively unfolds throughout the Bible, and then apply those principles in a way thats relevant to our contemporary situation.
Actually the new Testament doesn't really change the reality that its a spiritual battle that will inevitably end in physical threats or challenges to the authority of Gods truth. Christ said that His coming would divide, siblings and friends against each other.
Ultimately the destruction of evil doers just like in the old testament through Gods judgement in Christ. In that sense its still a spiritual battle that will decend into the threatening and physical attacks on the church and Christains.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. I dont believe I said that the NT was not a spiritual battle, infact I attempted to bring that across (maybe I wasn't clear enough). I'll state it more clearly, spiritual battles require spiritual solutions. Ofcourse there is the potential for physical threats and challenges in a spiritual battle. However because evil as a source originates in the spiritual and manifest in the natural, our reliance should be on God who is Spirit, and is the source of spiritual power to overcome.
For Israel (OT) and Christians(NT) the source of the solution is God. No amount of physical power can overcome evil, if it's source is not God.
The idea about humility and and giving glory to God and that God uses the least expected ways and people does not negate Gods special use of humans in particular ways to establish his people and church. still applies to all.
I keep going back to the fact that despite what you say about the least expected males dominated for some reason. Something males had that women did not and it was not about women being less of a human or worthy to God.
This was something spiritual associated with facing down evil in particular situations that demanded physical power and authority to ensure Gods judgement and will on humankind.
I already acknowledge the argument about the historical dominance of males in leadership roles. However, I still believe that God's use of unexpected ways and people is a fundamental spiritual principle. While males may have played a more prominent role in certain situations, I don't think it's accurate to imply that they possessed something spiritual that females did not, and that God is forever tied to using men only. This has bearing on Him being sovereign. God uses men and women with gifts and abilities, regardless of gender, to accomplish His purposes. My point is that we should be careful not to assume that historical methods must be replicated today, but rather seek to apply biblical principles in a way that is relevant to our contemporary context.
Yes this is a common theme that God would use his prophets and people to go into battle against the gods and idols of evil nations. They already believed that the gods dictated destiny and fortunes. When they seen the power of God they knew there was no greater God. But this often came through practical examples of human power and belief.
The walls came tumbling down because the vibrations and trembling foundations of the marching army and the trumpets. This took physical power to create a mini earthquake. But God gave Joshua the knowledge and tactics.
I cannot say whether it was vibrations, maybe it was or maybe it wasn't. Or maybe it was the host of heaven fighting on Joshua behalf (similar to what Elishas servant couldn't see) they were not alone. And especially in light of the encounter with the Commander of the Lord's army that confronted Joshua before the battle. Or maybe the commander of the Lord's army was a projected hologram, but I very much doubt it.
Another example was how Moses showed the pharoah God was more powerful when his staff became a snake that defeated the priests magic snakes. A battle of physical power as pagan belief was that physical power was from the gods. But God showed He can defeat all physical powers.
Yes it was the supernatural power of God against the powers of gods. GOD wins.
Yes that is another aspect of laying down ones life and one we all must contend with. Even the great prophets were servants laying down their lives for the people. They more than anyone would have known about laying down ones life as I don't think facing conflict, battles, hardships, and sleepless nights was something most people would volunteer for today.
Agree
Ok lets go with this for a minute. If church roles are not about gender or individual traits and abilities and when I mean gender I mean the natural differences and not the socially constructed ones. Then why was there a complete dominance of males.
You say it was because of Gods sovereign choice. Therefore Gods sovereign choice that males dominated the early church leadership should be respected. For some reason beyond our cultural understanding God chose men for His divine purpose in establishing and setting up His people for the coming of Christ and then following on from this in setting up the church on earth.
That same divine reason whatever it is has still be honored for nearly 2,000 years and now progressives come along thinking they know better and want to change it.
Now this is not about all leadership but a specific divine calling or role that men played. So women are also able to fullfill leadership roles in other ways within the church. As you said its not about gender ultimately but Gods choice and order of things.
Ok, I think there might be a contradictory tension between your statements. You seem to acknowledge that God calls, ordains and uses both men and women. Yet the real fear is that these changes are veering to much from what you believe is forever established and comfortable. But if God's sovereign choice is truly not limited to traditional gender roles, then shouldn't we be open to seeing how God might work through both men and women in different ways, rather than trying to maintain traditional roles because of history.
As previously stated, I understand your point that there appears to be a dominance of men for leadership roles in the early church, that appears to have been the norm. However, you also pointed out that this norm is confronted when God used women deacons, teachers, apostles, prophets etc. So this challenges the assumption that this "norm" should always be the norm (case).
We both can agree that God is sovereign and that God's sovereignty allows Him to break from historical patterns. And, as we see throughout the Bible, God has progressively done this.
As His subjects, we should accept when God chooses to work in different ways. This was certainly the case when Gentiles and Jews began eating together, and slaves were respected, and when women were given more prominent roles.
Paul understood this revelation, which culminated in Christ. In Christ, the barriers that divided people were removed (Galatians 3:28). God revealed His character amidst a sinful and fallen humanity, showing them a better way. Which is why I believe a lot of Paul's writings are a corrective to what is happening in the various situations.
Gods break from cultural expectations is also seen in the laws God gave to Israel, it was more just and compassionate than those of surrounding nations. While domination, evil, and abuse were present in the Old Testament, God was always revealing a better way – the way of Christ.
To revert to the old way of thinking would be to dismiss the work Christ accomplished.
I'm not suggesting that we disregard the past. Rather, I think we should consider that God's progressive revelation in the overall biblical narrative and Christ's work inform our understanding of the selection of leaders (both men and women) in the church today.
