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Meta's Zuckerberg gets rid of fact-checkers

probinson

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We all value free speech.

I don't believe that's true.

The problem is that the "free speech" advocates were pumping out orders of magnitude more nonsense than the government was.

That's also not true.

The difference is, the government's misinformation had very real consequences for people. You couldn't participate in polite society in many places if you hadn't been vaccinated. And the basis for vaccine passports (that the vaccines stopped transmission of the disease) were absolutely and unequivocally untrue. Firemen were fired (just ask the people in LA today if they care whether their fireman has had a COVID vaccine or not) as were doctors and nurses and other first-responders. The government-sponsored misinformation and disinformation was incredibly devastating to countless people.

There isn't really a good solution here. I don't think the fact-checkers did a very good job

The fact-checkers did exactly what they were intended to do; push the government-sanctioned narrative.
 
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Say it aint so

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During the pandemic, the government crafted a narrative that was rife with misinformation and disinformation and colluded with social media companies to censor anyone who dared to disagree with the nonsensical and unscientific bull-dookie that the government sanctioned and was pushing.

I'm continually amazed at the people that call for government-sanctioned "facts" to be the only discourse allowed. It's as if they don't value free speech at all.
That's false. No government entities were "crafting" disinformation. Disinformation is what is was combating else more people would ingest disinfectant. And yes, during pandemics like covid government should have the leeway to inform those who they are responsible for.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I don't believe that's true.



That's also not true.

The difference is, the government's misinformation had very real consequences for people.
You couldn't participate in polite society in many places if you hadn't been vaccinated. And the basis for vaccine passports (that the vaccines stopped transmission of the disease) were absolutely and unequivocally untrue. Firemen were fired (just ask the people in LA today if they care whether their fireman has had a COVID vaccine or not) as were doctors and nurses and other first-responders. The government-sponsored misinformation and disinformation was incredibly devastating to countless people.
The anti-vaxxers' misinformation also had very real consequences for people. Like, people dying. The vaccines, while not 100% stopping the transmission, did slow the transmission and reduce the severity of infection.
 
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Aldebaran

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If Musk or Zuckerberg truly supported free speech, they would register their social media platforms as news media to gain constitutional protection. This would require them to take responsibility for what is posted. Their goal isn't free speech; it's profit. Many Americans misunderstand censorship, and these tech leaders exploit that ignorance against the government.
To have Constitutional protection, one doesn't need to be "registered as news media". One only needs to be an American citizen.
 
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iluvatar5150

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To have Constitutional protection, one doesn't need to be "registered as news media". One only needs to be an American citizen.
That's not correct. To have constitutional protections. one merely needs to be present within the jurisdiction of the United States.
 
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Aldebaran

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That's not correct. To have constitutional protections. one merely needs to be present within the jurisdiction of the United States.
So much for the idea that they need to register as news media to have those protections.
 
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probinson

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That's false. No government entities were "crafting" disinformation.

Yes, they were. There was a well-coordinated propaganda campaign surrounding the pandemic. You may recall such phrases as "No one is safe until everyone is safe", and "pandemic of the unvaccinated", just to name two. Just watch this 11 minute video and try to convince yourself that there was not a coordinated disinformation campaign from the governments.


Disinformation is what is was combating else more people would ingest disinfectant.

C'mon man. Not even the liberal fact-checking hacks at Snopes believe this nonsense.


And yes, during pandemics like covid government should have the leeway to inform those who they are responsible for.

The government can always inform those they are responsible for. What they may not ever do is censor those who go against their approved narrative.
 
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probinson

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The anti-vaxxers' misinformation also had very real consequences for people. Like, people dying. The vaccines, while not 100% stopping the transmission, did slow the transmission and reduce the severity of infection.

I know you truly believe that. I have no idea why.
 
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probinson

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probinson

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of course not

May I politely inquire, how many doses of COVID vaccine have you had? The current government recommendation is 10. Have you had all 10 doses? If not, why not?

I'll tell you I had two. The original two dose Pfizer vaccine. I was sicker than I'd ever been after the second dose. I literally could not move for nearly 24 hours after my second dose. My wife had to help me get to the restroom because I was so weak and my joints were so stiff I couldn't even walk properly. I can assure that was the last dose of COVID vaccine I had or will ever get.
 
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iluvatar5150

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May I politely inquire, how many doses of COVID vaccine have you had?
Unsure. Looking at my covid card, which I stopped filling out in early 2022, I’d guess 6-7.


The current government recommendation is 10. Have you had all 10 doses? If not, why not?

This is the first I’ve heard of a recommendation of 10 and I don’t see that on the CDC’s guidance page. I got the initial several whenever they were available to me and then one a year since.


I'll tell you I had two. The original two dose Pfizer vaccine. I was sicker than I'd ever been after the second dose. I literally could not move for nearly 24 hours after my second dose. My wife had to help me get to the restroom because I was so weak and my joints were so stiff I couldn't even walk properly. I can assure that was the last dose of COVID vaccine I had or will ever get.
Yeah, that sometimes happens with a lot of vaccines.

I have a former colleague (healthy guy, maybe 40yo) who was infected early on and spent a couple weeks intubated. I know which of those two outcomes I’d prefer.
 
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probinson

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Unsure. Looking at my covid card, which I stopped filling out in early 2022, I’d guess 6-7.

You don't even know how many doses you've gotten?

This is the first I’ve heard of a recommendation of 10

The CDC has authorized 10 doses of the COVID vaccine for just about everyone since the first dose became available. The US is now mostly an outlier in recommending COVID vaccines for children as young as 6 months old. None of this has any data to support the recommendations.

I got the initial several whenever they were available to me and then one a year since.

"The initial several" is an interesting measurement. I'm kind of surprised you're still getting COVID vaccines once a year. You are in the overwhelming minority according to the CDC, where only ~20% of people are still getting the vaccines annually.

May I ask what you think you gain from an annual COVID vaccine?

Yeah, that sometimes happens with a lot of vaccines.

No, "a lot of vaccines" don't transiently incapacitate people. That's just nonsense.

I have a former colleague (healthy guy, maybe 40yo) who was infected early on and spent a couple weeks intubated. I know which of those two outcomes I’d prefer.

Cool story, bro.

I know of countless people who did not get the vaccine and were infected early on and had very minor infections.

Oh hey, remember when we were told that there weren't enough ventilators (which was clearly Trump's fault, natch), and NYC spent $12M in taxpayer money to acquire the ventilators they said they needed only to sell them for less than $25K worth of scrap metal?

Or when Canada purchased 8,200 ventilators, none of which were ever used in a medical setting and and 8,180 of which were slated for scrap metal by early 2021?

It's entirely possible that the hysteria caused governments to overreact and overestimate the utility of ventilators, just a tad, and completely fritter away untold MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in taxpayer dollars.
 
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probinson

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Can you clarify exactly which case you are referring to?
I suspect he is referencing this:

The Supreme Court on Wednesday threw out a lawsuit seeking to limit the government’s ability to communicate with social media companies about their content moderation policies. By a vote of 6-3, the court ruled that that the plaintiffs did not have a legal right, known as standing, to bring their lawsuit.
What this does not say is that the government didn't pressure social media companies. Multiple courts made clear that the Biden administration did just that.

The lawsuit centers on “jawboning,” a term used to describe informal efforts by government officials to persuade someone outside the government to take action. In this case, the plaintiffs – two states with Republican attorneys general and several individuals whose social media posts were removed or downgraded – challenged the Biden administration’s efforts in 2021 to restrict misinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine. They argued that the administration’s actions had violated social media users’ rights to free speech.
A federal judge in Louisiana ruled for the plaintiffs. U.S. District Judge Terry Doughty agreed that federal officials had violated the First Amendment by “coercing” or “significantly encouraging” social media platforms’ content moderation decisions. Doughty issued an order that limited the extent to which the White House and several other government agencies could communicate with social media platforms.
 
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probinson

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I've posted this link a dozen times, but here it is again.

What that says is that the plaintiffs lacked standing to file the suit. It does not say that the Biden administration had not pressured or coerced social media companies. In fact, the lower courts made clear that they did exactly that.
 
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iluvatar5150

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You don't even know how many doses you've gotten?

No. Like I said, I stopped keeping track. My wife is the organized planner in the family who remembers everything. I can barely remember what day of the week it is. I just go for the shots when she does. I know it's at least once a year; there may have been 2 in the first year I stopped keeping track.

I'm sure I could go dig into my various MyChart accounts to figure it out, but we've gone to a combination of doctor's offices and in-store clinics, so it'd be more hassle than I want to invest in an internet argument.

The CDC has authorized 10 doses of the COVID vaccine for just about everyone since the first dose became available.
"authorized" != "recommended"

Either way, where are you seeing this? This is the first I'm hearing of 10 doses.

The US is now mostly an outlier in recommending COVID vaccines for children as young as 6 months old. None of this has any data to support the recommendations.

That's nice.

"The initial several" is an interesting measurement.

There were 5 entries on my card. One was crossed out. I don't remember why.


I'm kind of surprised you're still getting COVID vaccines once a year. You are in the overwhelming minority according to the CDC, where only ~20% of people are still getting the vaccines annually.

Well, I'm in the top quintile in a bunch of areas. What's one more.


May I ask what you think you gain from an annual COVID vaccine?

Increased resistance to emerging strains of the disease.

No, "a lot of vaccines" don't transiently incapacitate people. That's just nonsense.

A lot of people do get sick from vaccines. The flu vaccine is pretty well known for this, but it's also a common warning for others.

Cool story, bro.
lol, really?

I know of countless people who did not get the vaccine and were infected early on and had very minor infections.

If we're trading anecdotes, I also know of countless people who had the vaccine and had zero ill effects. Personally, I never felt more than a bit run down.


Oh hey, remember when we were told that there weren't enough ventilators (which was clearly Trump's fault, natch), and NYC spent $12M in taxpayer money to acquire the ventilators they said they needed only to sell them for less than $25K worth of scrap metal?

Or when Canada purchased 8,200 ventilators, none of which were ever used in a medical setting and and 8,180 of which were slated for scrap metal by early 2021?

It's entirely possible that the hysteria caused governments to overreact and overestimate the utility of ventilators, just a tad, and completely fritter away untold MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in taxpayer dollars.
Sure, they didn't get the ventilator thing right. But remember that this was while we were piling bodies in reefer trucks because morgues were running out of space. I'll forgive the officials for going into panic mode and trying whatever might work.
 
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JSRG

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I've posted this link a dozen times, but here it is again.
Well, I wasn't sure if you were alluding to that one or another one (like, say, the NetChoice decision).

The problem is, it doesn't quite back up what you said. Your assertion was:
The Biden administration never pressured anyone to censor anything.
But the case didn't say it "never pressured anyone to censor anything." It ultimately didn't weigh in on that question. It rather said the plaintiffs (a bunch of users and several states) lacked standing because they hadn't properly shown that they had suffered any injury as a result of the government's actions.

This is noted in your own link:

The majority opinion, written by Justice Amy Coney Barrett, found that the two Republican-led states and social media users who filed the lawsuit against dozens of executive branch officials and agencies did not have the legal right to do so, because they could not prove that government pressure had suppressed their free-speech rights.

This isn't saying there was no pressure to censor anything, just that, if there had been, the specific people involved were not injured by it.

SCOTUS Blog has a good writeup on it:

This again notes what I said before. It also discusses how the majority opinion notes that, even if there had been censorship, there wasn't evidence there would be more in the future:

But even if Hines had shown that her injuries could be attributed to the government’s conduct, Barrett continued, even she could not show that she is likely to be harmed again in the future by that conduct. “By August 2022, when Hines joined the case,” Barrett wrote, “the officials’ communications about COVID-19 misinformation had slowed to a trickle.” And it is therefore “no more than conjecture” to project that Hines will be harmed by content moderation attributable to the federal government again, Barrett concluded. This is particularly true, Barrett added, when “the available evidence indicates that the platforms have enforced their policies against COVID-19 misinformation even as the Federal Government has wound down its own pandemic response measures.”

The decision was thus ultimately made on a bunch of technical grounds that meant the court didn't give an actual ruling on whether the Biden administration had engaged in censorship.
 
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