What has the "lying pen" in Jeremiah 8:8 altered?

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Jeremiah 8:8 in the NIV says: How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

In the NRSVUE, it is rendered: How can you say, “We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us,” when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?

The CEB puts it more simply: How can you say, “We are wise; we possess the Lord’s Instruction,” when the lying pen of the scribes has surely distorted it?

Is it possible to determine to what the "law of the Lord" or the "Lord's Instruction" refers? If so, is it the Torah (first five books of the Bible), the entirety of Scripture up until Jeremiah, the whole Old Testament, the entire Bible including the New Testament or something else?

Gregory Thompson · Dec 29, 2024

Shouldn't this thread be in controversial theology?

The thesis of this scripture verse goes outside of the purpose of General Theology.

Soyeong · Dec 29, 2024

mcarans said:
Jeremiah 8:8 in the NIV says: How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

In the NRSVUE, it is rendered: How can you say, “We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us,” when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?

The CEB puts it more simply: How can you say, “We are wise; we possess the Lord’s Instruction,” when the lying pen of the scribes has surely distorted it?

Is it possible to determine to what the "law of the Lord" or the "Lord's Instruction" refers? If so, is it the Torah (first five books of the Bible), the entirety of Scripture up until Jeremiah, the whole Old Testament, the entire Bible including the New Testament or something else?

In orders to know that something has been altered you need to know what it originally said, so the original has not been lost. If they had the power to change whatever they wanted, then they would not have included Jeremiah 8:8.

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Gregory Thompson said:
Shouldn't this thread be in controversial theology?

The thesis of this scripture verse goes outside of the purpose of General Theology.

I quoted a Bible verse and asked to what it refers. How is that "controversial theology"?

Soyeong said:
In orders to know that something has been altered you need to know what it originally said, so the original has not been lost. If they had the power to change whatever they wanted, then they would not have included Jeremiah 8:8.

Thanks for your reply. Are you implying that the "law of the Lord" or the "Lord's Instruction" refers to either the first five books of the Bible or everything up to but not including Jeremiah?

Gregory Thompson · Dec 29, 2024

mcarans said:
I quoted a Bible verse and asked to what it refers. How is that "controversial theology"?

It is a discussion for controversial theology because of its content, much like a literal reading of 1Timothy 4:10.

There is a time and place for everything, it is important that things are done in order.

Jeremiah 8:8 is a good discussion topic for sure.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 29, 2024

Soyeong said:
In orders to know that something has been altered you need to know what it originally said, so the original has not been lost. If they had the power to change whatever they wanted, then they would not have included Jeremiah 8:8.

You know, the Jehovah witnesses did their best to remove references to the trinity from their version of the bible, but they didn't understand the doctrine fully .. so they missed some spots. It's like that, most people miss this verse.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 29, 2024

mcarans said:
Is it possible to determine to what the "law of the Lord" or the "Lord's Instruction" refers? If so, is it the Torah (first five books of the Bible), the entirety of Scripture up until Jeremiah, the whole Old Testament, the entire Bible including the New Testament or something else?

This question is okay to answer in General Theology, pastors are really good at questions like this. They use historical context and give a reason why in this period "the law of the Lord" means X.

Since I have no such academic background I tend to just think of it as the first 5 books that are about the law.

There would be no reason to think it means anything not available to Jeremiah, since God would be speaking within the prophet's frame of reference.

Another example is in Revelation where it is written that those who add to the words of the prophecy will have the curses in the book added to them, and those who take away from what is said, will have the blessings taken away. This reminds me of something Paul said, that we have laws, because they are being transgressed. The saying of do not take away or add, implies it was already happening.

This is kind of why it isn't really a General Theology topic, since it implies the scripture is corrupted and cannot be trusted. @Soyeong's response is the most appropriate for this subforum.

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Gregory Thompson said:
This question is okay to answer in General Theology, pastors are really good at questions like this. They use historical context and give a reason why in this period "the law of the Lord" means X.

Since I have no such academic background I tend to just think of it as the first 5 books that are about the law.

There would be no reason to think it means anything not available to Jeremiah, since God would be speaking within the prophet's frame of reference.

Another example is in Revelation where it is written that those who add to the words of the prophecy will have the curses in the book added to them, and those who take away from what is said, will have the blessings taken away. This reminds me of something Paul said, that we have laws, because they are being transgressed. The saying of do not take away or add, implies it was already happening.

This is kind of why it isn't really a General Theology topic, since it implies the scripture is corrupted and cannot be trusted. @Soyeong's response is the most appropriate for this subforum.

Thanks for your replies and for the Revelation example. I will ask separately about the implications of what Scripture says in these verses about itself on the other forum once I've allowed some time for more responses on the questions here.

Aaron112 · Dec 29, 2024

mcarans said:
Is it possible to determine to what the "law of the Lord" or the "Lord's Instruction" refers?

No.

mcarans said:
I will ask separately about the implications of what Scripture says in these verses about itself on the other forum once I've allowed some time for more responses on the questions here.

Why?

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Aaron112 said:
No.

Why not?

Aaron112 · Dec 29, 2024

mcarans said:
Why not?

Because. <shrugs> That's just how it is.

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Aaron112 said:
Because. <shrugs> That's just how it is.

Why do you think Jeremiah wrote this verse?

Aaron112 · Dec 29, 2024

web:"Implications

YHVH’s Sovereignty: Every verse reflects YHVH’s supreme authority and control over all creation, history, and human affairs.
Holiness: The Scriptures portray YHVH’s majestic holiness, emphasizing His separation from sin and His demand for righteousness.
Relational Aspect: YHVH’s inspiration is not limited to abstract truths; it also reveals His personal, relational nature, as seen in His interactions with individuals and nations throughout history.
Inerrancy: The inspiration of every verse by YHVH implies the inerrancy and authority of Scripture, as God’s words are reliable and trustworthy."

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Aaron112 said:
web:"Implications

YHVH’s Sovereignty: Every verse reflects YHVH’s supreme authority and control over all creation, history, and human affairs.

Holiness: The Scriptures portray YHVH’s majestic holiness, emphasizing His separation from sin and His demand for righteousness.

Relational Aspect: YHVH’s inspiration is not limited to abstract truths; it also reveals His personal, relational nature, as seen in His interactions with individuals and nations throughout history.

Inerrancy: The inspiration of every verse by YHVH implies the inerrancy and authority of Scripture, as God’s words are reliable and trustworthy."

What is God trying to tell us in that verse?

Aaron112 · Dec 29, 2024

mcarans said:
What is God trying to tell us in that verse?

<shrugs?> "Be Still (be quiet) and KNOW that I AM GOD" ......... He , if He answers, answers in a very quiet voice, and not hardly ever on a forum.

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Aaron112 said:
<shrugs?> "Be Still (be quiet) and KNOW that I AM GOD" ......... He , if He answers, answers in a very quiet voice, and not hardly ever on a forum.

How do you know that?

Aaron112 · Dec 29, 2024

" “Be still and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10) is a powerful invitation to cultivate a deeper relationship with God. Here are some key insights:

Stillness is not just silence: While stillness implies quietness, it’s not just about being physically silent. It’s about stopping the internal struggles, worries, and distractions that keep us from focusing on God.
Surrender and trust: The Hebrew word for “be still” (רָפָה, raphah) means to cease striving, let go, and surrender. This phrase is not a call to inaction, but rather a recognition that God is in control and we must trust in His sovereignty.
Acknowledge God’s presence: The phrase is not just a command to be still, but also an affirmation of God’s existence and presence. It’s an opportunity to acknowledge and affirm God’s reality in our lives.
Contextual understanding: Psalm 46 is a song of trust and confidence in God’s protection and deliverance during times of turmoil and chaos. In this context, “be still” is a call to trust God’s power and presence, even in the midst of uncertainty.
Applying the verse: To apply this verse, we can:
- Practice mindfulness and quiet contemplation, letting go of distractions and worries.
- Recognize God’s sovereignty and trust in His goodness, even in difficult circumstances.
- Cultivate a sense of awe and wonder at God’s presence and power.
- Use this verse as a reminder to surrender our fears and anxieties to God, trusting in His care and guidance.

Insights from Various Perspectives

Christianity: For Christians, this verse is a reminder of God’s presence and power, encouraging believers to trust in Him and find peace in the midst of chaos.
Spirituality: The phrase can be seen as a universal invitation to cultivate inner stillness and awareness, recognizing the divine presence within and around us.
Psychology: The concept of stillness can be applied to mental and emotional well-being, encouraging individuals to let go of internal struggles and find peace through mindfulness and self-awareness.

Conclusion

“Be still and know that I am God” is a rich and multifaceted phrase that invites us to cultivate a deeper relationship with God. By understanding the context, meaning, and applications of this verse, we can find peace, trust, and surrender in the midst of life’s challenges."

mcarans · Dec 29, 2024

Aaron112 said:
" “Be still and know that I am God” (Psalm 46:10) is a powerful invitation to cultivate a deeper relationship with God. Here are some key insights:

Stillness is not just silence: While stillness implies quietness, it’s not just about being physically silent. It’s about stopping the internal struggles, worries, and distractions that keep us from focusing on God.

Surrender and trust: The Hebrew word for “be still” (רָפָה, raphah) means to cease striving, let go, and surrender. This phrase is not a call to inaction, but rather a recognition that God is in control and we must trust in His sovereignty.

Acknowledge God’s presence: The phrase is not just a command to be still, but also an affirmation of God’s existence and presence. It’s an opportunity to acknowledge and affirm God’s reality in our lives.

Contextual understanding: Psalm 46 is a song of trust and confidence in God’s protection and deliverance during times of turmoil and chaos. In this context, “be still” is a call to trust God’s power and presence, even in the midst of uncertainty.

Applying the verse: To apply this verse, we can:

Practice mindfulness and quiet contemplation, letting go of distractions and worries.

Recognize God’s sovereignty and trust in His goodness, even in difficult circumstances.

Cultivate a sense of awe and wonder at God’s presence and power.

Use this verse as a reminder to surrender our fears and anxieties to God, trusting in His care and guidance.

Insights from Various Perspectives

Christianity: For Christians, this verse is a reminder of God’s presence and power, encouraging believers to trust in Him and find peace in the midst of chaos.

Spirituality: The phrase can be seen as a universal invitation to cultivate inner stillness and awareness, recognizing the divine presence within and around us.

Psychology: The concept of stillness can be applied to mental and emotional well-being, encouraging individuals to let go of internal struggles and find peace through mindfulness and self-awareness.

Conclusion
“Be still and know that I am God” is a rich and multifaceted phrase that invites us to cultivate a deeper relationship with God. By understanding the context, meaning, and applications of this verse, we can find peace, trust, and surrender in the midst of life’s challenges."

How do you know that God is trying to tell us that 'How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' means “Be still and know that I am God”?

How do you know that "He , if He answers, answers in a very quiet voice, and not hardly ever on a forum"?

How do you know that ChatGPT or other AI from which you're getting your longer answers is correct?

Der Alte · Jan 3, 2025

JPS Jer 8:8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.

After this was written did God, the priests etc. just shrug their shoulders and say something along the line of "Well the scriptures have been corrupted and there is nothing we can do about it." Or did they do something about it? JPS = Jewish Publication Society

mcarans · Jan 7, 2025

Der Alte said:
JPS Jer 8:8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.
After this was written did God, the priests etc. just shrug their shoulders and say something along the line of "Well the scriptures have been corrupted and there is nothing we can do about it." Or did they do something about it? JPS = Jewish Publication Society

Jeremiah later prophesies in chapter 31 that the days are coming when I will make a new covenant, and I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts so I guess that was one way God did something about it. If you put the law in their minds and write it on their hearts, you don't really need a Bible!

What has the "lying pen" in Jeremiah 8:8 altered?

Well-Known Member

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

web:"Implications​

Well-Known Member

web:"Implications​

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Insights from Various Perspectives​

Conclusion​

Well-Known Member

Insights from Various Perspectives​

Conclusion​

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

web:"Implications

web:"Implications

Insights from Various Perspectives

Conclusion

Insights from Various Perspectives

Conclusion