Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

Jerry N. · Nov 19, 2024

DennisF said:
You are raising the question of how free will - ours or God's - enters into the explanation of physical phenomena. I agree that "God controls nature" and he does not do it in a capricious or chaotic way but acts within the bounds of his creational upholding activity that we recognize scientifically as the laws of nature. We might have no explanation for how he does it, but we are still a long way from the End of Science.
I addressed the topic of free will and determinism in an article on determinism and semi-decidability.

I’m not purporting the end of science, but I am saying that our scientific knowledge is so limited that belief in both the supernatural and science is not unreasonable. From our modern perspective, we have progressed greatly from the days of alchemy, because of our vanity. However, we have only taken little steps, and, in a thousand years, we will seem ignorant.

I read your article very carefully, and it is very nicely written. I understand what it is saying about free will for us, but I don’t see how it touches on God’s free will. I am probably missing something.

DennisF · Nov 20, 2024

Jerry N. said:
I’m not purporting the end of science, but I am saying that our scientific knowledge is so limited that belief in both the supernatural and science is not unreasonable.

The ideas of nature versus supernature come from paganism, not the biblical worldview. It is part of the dualistic view of the Greeks, that there are two different realities rather than a single creation in which God acts and in which we can know him.
My point appears to be what you are saying, that because science is unfinished business, we do not know how God might be accomplishing his "mighty acts". I would not invoke dualistsic ontology to explain them because, in part, that is tantamount to a pagan view of the creation.

Jerry N. said:
From our modern perspective, we have progressed greatly from the days of alchemy, because of our vanity. However, we have only taken little steps, and, in a thousand years, we will seem ignorant.

The attitude of the early scientists was not vanity but humility, in their openness to observe what nature is telling them rather than dictate to nature what it must be, as the Platonic and Aristotelian Greeks did from the "armchairs" (and modern physicists do in a way with string theory).

Jerry N. said:
I read your article very carefully, and it is very nicely written. I understand what it is saying about free will for us, but I don’t see how it touches on God’s free will. I am probably missing something.

No, you're not missing anything. Theologians address the topic of whether the creation was a necessary result of who God is or whether he freely chose to create as he did. The earlier scientists such as Robert Boyle had a voluntarist view that God was free to create and that he could have created a different kind of universe. There is more that can be said about whether this topic can even be addressed properly by us, but that's a different thread of discussion.

Jerry N. · Nov 20, 2024

DennisF said:
The ideas of nature versus supernature come from paganism, not the biblical worldview. It is part of the dualistic view of the Greeks, that there are two different realities rather than a single creation in which God acts and in which we can know him.
My point appears to be what you are saying, that because science is unfinished business, we do not know how God might be accomplishing his "mighty acts". I would not invoke dualistsic ontology to explain them because, in part, that is tantamount to a pagan view of the creation.

The attitude of the early scientists was not vanity but humility, in their openness to observe what nature is telling them rather than dictate to nature what it must be, as the Platonic and Aristotelian Greeks did from the "armchairs" (and modern physicists do in a way with string theory).

No, you're not missing anything. Theologians address the topic of whether the creation was a necessary result of who God is or whether he freely chose to create as he did. The earlier scientists such as Robert Boyle had a voluntarist view that God was free to create and that he could have created a different kind of universe. There is more that can be said about whether this topic can even be addressed properly by us, but that's a different thread of discussion.

When we pray to God, are we not doing the same thing as pagans to their gods? We both believe that we are heard and hope for divine intervention. When I referred to the supernatural, I meant those things we don’t understand and attribute to powers and entities beyond our world knowledge. The practical steps in the act of prayer are similar. It is a bit like the burnt sacrifices of the Hebrews in the OT, because the pagans were doing the same thing. The difference was the direction of prayer. Prayer can do wonderful things. I wasn’t trying to explain how God answers prayer, but the framework in which it is done and that it is a power and process presently beyond science.

Maybe I wrote it poorly, but I was referring to the vanity of modern science. They are no longer searching to understand God’s creation, like Newton, but searching for their own glory.

DennisF · Nov 20, 2024

Jerry N. said:
When we pray to God, are we not doing the same thing as pagans to their gods? We both believe that we are heard and hope for divine intervention. When I referred to the supernatural, I meant those things we don’t understand and attribute to powers and entities beyond our world knowledge.

I understand you, but there is a larger discourse about reality where, like the ancient Greeks, it is said that Nature acts according to the Fates while the gods impose their acts upon this autonomous Nature, as though they are like humans, and this is "supernatural" - divine activity above or beyond what Nature does. That, of course, is not a biblical view, but Greek philosophy was quite popular during the Middle Ages, having been a major discovery of the ancient world, and the rather obscure ancient history in the Bible was thus understood or interpreted in the context of the Greek and Roman writings.

Consequently, whether one is Catholic or Protestant or some other tradition in the West, subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle aspects of this pagan philosophy are still influencing the minds of Christians today. I don't say this to you as a rebuke but as a heads-up notice to create awareness. Now that you are aware of it, you might see it in a number of places in "good Christian theology".

Jerry N. said:
The practical steps in the act of prayer are similar. It is a bit like the burnt sacrifices of the Hebrews in the OT, because the pagans were doing the same thing.

Pagan religion is like authentic religion because the Devil lacks creative ability, but is an avid copier. What else can he do? It was the Lord God (Yahweh elohim) who did all the creating, including the Adamites.

Jerry N. said:
The difference was the direction of prayer. Prayer can do wonderful things. I wasn’t trying to explain how God answers prayer, but the framework in which it is done.

Right.

Jerry N. said:
Maybe I wrote it poorly, but I was referring to the vanity of modern science. They are no longer searching to understand God’s creation, like Newton, but searching for their own glory.

Indeed, degeneration in modern science is a large topic unto itself. Before govt money began pouring into science, scientists were motivated by an interest in finding out the truth about the creation. Now, money and the political power attached to it attenuates, distorts, and pollutes what is called science. Example? Start with Anthony Fauci and the covid debacle.

There is a good book on this very topic, written by a British biologist who is Provost of Buckingham U., Terence Kealey, The Economic Laws of Scientific Research, 1996. He contrasts 19th-century British and French science, where the British govt put no money into science while the French govt lavishly built scientific institutions. The results? The English produced far more scientific progress than the French. Kealey presents his evidence with economic data.

Jerry N. · Nov 20, 2024

DennisF said:
I understand you, but there is a larger discourse about reality where, like the ancient Greeks, it is said that Nature acts according to the Fates while the gods impose their acts upon this autonomous Nature, as though they are like humans, and this is "supernatural" - divine activity above or beyond what Nature does. That, of course, is not a biblical view, but Greek philosophy was quite popular during the Middle Ages, having been a major discovery of the ancient world, and the rather obscure ancient history in the Bible was thus understood or interpreted in the context of the Greek and Roman writings.

Consequently, whether one is Catholic or Protestant or some other tradition in the West, subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle aspects of this pagan philosophy are still influencing the minds of Christians today. I don't say this to you as a rebuke but as a heads-up notice to create awareness. Now that you are aware of it, you might see it in a number of places in "good Christian theology".

Pagan religion is like authentic religion because the Devil lacks creative ability, but is an avid copier. What else can he do? It was the Lord God (Yahweh elohim) who did all the creating, including the Adamites.

Right.

Indeed, degeneration in modern science is a large topic unto itself. Before govt money began pouring into science, scientists were motivated by an interest in finding out the truth about the creation. Now, money and the political power attached to it attenuates, distorts, and pollutes what is called science. Example? Start with Anthony Fauci and the covid debacle.

There is a good book on this very topic, written by a British biologist who is Provost of Buckingham U., Terence Kealey, The Economic Laws of Scientific Research, 1996. He contrasts 19th-century British and French science, where the British govt put no money into science while the French govt lavishly built scientific institutions. The results? The English produced far more scientific progress than the French. Kealey presents his evidence with economic data.

I was actually thinking about Fauci when I was writing that post, but I didn't want to include him. I know you meant more than what I am about to write, but I think it is relevant. Many Christians seem to pray as though there is a formula to follow. If you get the formula right, your prayer is answered. This is pagan in my point of view. Prayer should be with reverence and humility, but the ritual is for us not God. I will have to give your post a little more thought.

DennisF · Nov 20, 2024

Jerry N. said:
I was actually thinking about Fauci when I was writing that post, but I didn't want to include him. I know you meant more than what I am about to write, but I think it is relevant. Many Christians seem to pray as though there is a formula to follow. If you get the formula right, your prayer is answered. This is pagan in my point of view. Prayer should be with reverence and humility, but the ritual is for us not God. I will have to give your post a little more thought.

Right. In the biblical worldview there are no magic wands, no abracadabra. A person whose mind is soaked in scripture has the right framework for addressing God meaningfully. Here is an analogy. Computers can communicate because the interface electronics and software are configured for the communications protocol - its format. Scripture is a configurer of our minds to the right format for communicating with God. Those who say, "I prayed and nothing happened." might not have had the right formatting. Or God did respond and they did not receive the message in the pattern of events occurring in their lives. They failed to see the pattern which was the response. Some people expect God to make everything plain and obvious, and in a way that fits their preconceived range of acceptable responses.

Diamond72 · Nov 20, 2024

Jerry N. said:
When we pray to God, are we not doing the same thing as pagans to their gods?

Not at all. We pray according to the will of God. Whatsoever things are good, right, true, pure and so on. We delight ourselves in the lord and then He gives us the desires of our Heart. Some people think grumbling and complaining is prayer and God is not happy with that at all.

Diamond72 · Nov 20, 2024

DennisF said:
Scripture is a configurer of our minds to the right format for communicating with God.

So we are praying to a supper computer? Sorry, I could not resist. It makes sense that you must follow the protocol to get results. It is an interesting comparison though because dos have to be exact and precise or the command will not work

Jerry N. · Nov 21, 2024

DennisF said:
Right. In the biblical worldview there are no magic wands, no abracadabra. A person whose mind is soaked in scripture has the right framework for addressing God meaningfully. Here is an analogy. Computers can communicate because the interface electronics and software are configured for the communications protocol - its format. Scripture is a configurer of our minds to the right format for communicating with God. Those who say, "I prayed and nothing happened." might not have had the right formatting. Or God did respond and they did not receive the message in the pattern of events occurring in their lives. They failed to see the pattern which was the response. Some people expect God to make everything plain and obvious, and in a way that fits their preconceived range of acceptable responses.

I agree, and this particularly fits with prosperity teaching. They are not praying in accordance with the whole teachings of the Bible (Hebrews 11:36-40). However, there is a concept among some Christians that God answers prayers in ways that are hard to understand. This is true in some cases to teach us to search deeper into God’s will. However, God does not wish to be obscure for the sake of being mysterious or to “hide His face” from us. Sometimes, He answers prayer very bluntly, particularly when we don’t like His answer (Jonah 1:1). He wants to communicate with us and knows that a blunt response is best at times, and a vague response is best at other times. Sometimes He chooses not to respond. For example, “Father, should I buy the red car or the blue car?” His silence is saying “Do what you want,” because of our free will and that He has already taken into account whatever choice we make.

Jerry N. · Nov 21, 2024

Diamond72 said:
Not at all. We pray according to the will of God. Whatsoever things are good, right, true, pure and so on. We delight ourselves in the lord and then He gives us the desires of our Heart. Some people think grumbling and complaining is prayer and God is not happy with that at all.

I was primarily referring to the outward appearance, and asking for help. For example, not counting evil practices like the Aztecs , both God's people and pagans might pray for rain in similar ways.

Diamond72 · Nov 21, 2024

Jerry N. said:
I was primarily referring to the outward appearance, and asking for help. For example, not counting evil practices like the Aztecs , both God's people and pagans might pray for rain in similar ways.

The conquistadors were very religious and destroyed all the pagan books of the Aztecs. So we know very little of what they believed.

The Spanish conquistadors, driven by their religious zeal, sought to convert indigenous populations to Christianity and often destroyed native texts and artifacts they considered pagan. As a result, much of the Aztec religious beliefs and practices were lost or went undocumented.

Jerry N. · Nov 22, 2024

Diamond72 said:
The conquistadors were very religious and destroyed all the pagan books of the Aztecs. So we know very little of what they believed.

The Spanish conquistadors, driven by their religious zeal, sought to convert indigenous populations to Christianity and often destroyed native texts and artifacts they considered pagan. As a result, much of the Aztec religious beliefs and practices were lost or went undocumented.

Feel free to insert any civilization that committed human sacrifice.

Diamond72 · Nov 22, 2024

Jerry N. said:
Feel free to insert any civilization that committed human sacrifice.

Does that include us with abortion today?

Jerry N. · Nov 22, 2024

Diamond72 said:
Does that include us with abortion today?

There seems to be good reasons to do so, but we were discussing the ritual of prayer and how prayer works. I have heard that rituals take place with abortion, but it is probably just a conspiracy theory.

Jerry N. · Nov 22, 2024

I was trying to invoke an image something like this: A farmer in India goes to a temple of Indra and bows and prays for rain, as compared to a farmer in Ohio going to church bowing to God and praying for rain. The actions and the devotions are similar, but the direction of the prayer is different—one to an idol and one to God. The process seems almost universal. How did it come to be? How does it function?

Diamond72 · Nov 22, 2024

Jerry N. said:
There seems to be good reasons to do so, but we were discussing the ritual of prayer and how prayer works. I have heard that rituals take place with abortion, but it is probably just a conspiracy theory.

I had a dream about my daughter in Heaven. The children there want nothing more than to be reunited with their parents. Only chances are their parents will not make it to heaven to be reunited with them.

Jerry N. · Nov 22, 2024

Diamond72 said:
I had a dream about my daughter in Heaven. The children there want nothing more than to be reunited with their parents. Only chances are their parents will not make it to heaven to be reunited with them.

I think I understand what you mean in relation to abortion, but I don't know how to comment.

DennisF · Dec 7, 2024

Jerry N. said:
Back in college, we did a series of math exercises on how a four-dimensional creature would interact with our three-dimensional world. I’ve forgotten the math now, but I remember that the four-dimensional creatures could do amazing things. One I remember is that they could circle the earth and return to their starting point slightly before they left from a three-dimensional point of view. Since then, I have always wondered if that was the spiritual realm.

No, it is an example of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. This has been tested in that atomic clocks have been synchronized on earth, one launched into orbit traveling at some great speed (but << the speed of light) and because of the speed, the clocks showed a time difference that can be accurately calculated from Special relativity.

If "spiritual" is understood to relate to higher or more advanced beings than we are, then we are all in the same "realm".

Jerry N. said:
I don’t see how life in other places in the universe negates the Bible. As human beings, we often lump things in small categories. Today, some people see unexplained things as spiritual, while others see things from outer space, and others see only strange natural phenomena.

The appearance to the general public of ETs on earth would not negate but rather would reinforce the biblical worldview because advanced beings (God, gods, angels, seraphim, etc) appear so much in the Bible that if they were removed, you would have a different worldview. For ETs to "show up" would be a bad day for atheism.

Diamond72 · Dec 7, 2024

Jerry N. said:
compared to a farmer in Ohio going to church bowing to God and praying for rain.

In Ohio we pray for it to quit raining. We have lake effect weather here. I heard on the news that someone got five feet of snow the last snow storm.

Jerry N. · Dec 8, 2024

DennisF said:
No, it is an example of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. This has been tested in that atomic clocks have been synchronized on earth, one launched into orbit traveling at some great speed (but << the speed of light) and because of the speed, the clocks showed a time difference that can be accurately calculated from Special relativity.

I have some knowledge of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity and your explanation is accurate and interesting. The atomic clock studies are fascinating. We were actually doing four- dimensional math with time as the “fifth dimension.” Our teacher was probably inspired by “Flatland” by Abbot, because we started by visualizing what a “flatman” living in two dimensions would see as a sphere passed through his world. We were using matrix geometry. My knowledge of the subject mostly passed out of my brain when I handed in my exam. I understand that people have applied Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity to higher numbers of dimensions, and it has inspired much science fiction and the multiverse theory.

DennisF said:
If "spiritual" is understood to relate to higher or more advanced beings than we are, then we are all in the same "realm".

The appearance to the general public of ETs on earth would not negate but rather would reinforce the biblical worldview because advanced beings (God, gods, angels, seraphim, etc) appear so much in the Bible that if they were removed, you would have a different worldview. For ETs to "show up" would be a bad day for atheism.

I think you are absolutely correct about both the spiritual beings and ETs, as related to the Bible. Do you think they are the same things or two different types of beings?

Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

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