Wife getting massages

Ana the Ist · Tuesday at 4:47 PM

Paidiske said:
But that's not the necessary outcome of renouncing controlling dynamics. One can freely choose to prioritise the other; great.

Again though.....why would you?

You've made it clear that you see any uncomfortability on the part of your husband with any possible behavior as his problem.....not yours.

You've also made it clear he shouldn't ask you to stop any behavior that makes him uncomfortable....as you see it as controlling and abusive.

I suppose he can simply leave one day once he realizes his situation but that's about it....isn't it?

Paidiske said:
I am only arguing against coercion and control.

I'm only suggesting that the man set some boundaries. It's obvious he hasn't been doing this before now. He's clearly not controlling or abusive.

Ana the Ist · Tuesday at 4:48 PM

J-316 said:
OP has provided no evidence to the contrary.

You expect the OP to provide evidence of his wife's infidelity to total strangers on a message board....if he has such evidence?

Think of what you're saying.

J-316 · Tuesday at 4:50 PM

You might have missed what OP wrote, Ana the 1st. He stated the following:

I don't believe it will lead to any actual impropriety or infidelity,

Again, the OP has not provided any evidence to the contrary.

Paidiske · Tuesday at 5:06 PM

Ana the Ist said:
Again though.....why would you?

Because in a relationship one might choose to do something for the sake of the other. Most of us do this to some extent every day.

Ana the Ist said:
You've made it clear that you see any uncomfortability on the part of your husband with any possible behavior as his problem.....not yours.

No, that's not what I've been saying at all. Although in the specific instance under discussion in this thread, I do think the problem is the husband's.

Ana the Ist said:
You've also made it clear he shouldn't ask you to stop any behavior that makes him uncomfortable....as you see it as controlling and abusive.

No. I have said very clearly that one may ask. But that it is a request, and that the other is free to choose how they respond to that request. It's when it goes beyond that, to an expectation or sense of entitlement, when the request becomes a demand, that it becomes a problem.

Ana the Ist said:
I'm only suggesting that the man set some boundaries.

And I am objecting to the use of the word "boundaries" in regard to controlling her behaviour.

Ana the Ist said:
He's clearly not controlling or abusive.

So maybe it would be a good thing if people don't advise him to become so.

Ana the Ist · Tuesday at 6:30 PM

J-316 said:
You might have missed what OP wrote, Ana the 1st. He stated the following:

No...I read it. It's unclear what he's seeking advice for if that were true though.

J-316 said:
Again, the OP has not provided any evidence to the contrary.

Nor should we expect him to.

BCP1928 · Tuesday at 6:33 PM

J-316 said:
OP has provided no evidence to the contrary. Real evidence of concern would be indications, such as admission or physical proof, that his wife engaged in something more than just a professional massage.

The nature of the OP's concern is not clearly stated, but I don't think it has to to with fear of his wife being sexually abused by the masseur

Tinker Grey · Tuesday at 6:35 PM

Odd that no one's mentioned the golden age of medicine when all OBGYNs were men. (Unless I missed it.)

Ana the Ist · Tuesday at 6:36 PM

Paidiske said:
Because in a relationship one might choose to do something for the sake of the other.

Or not do something.

Paidiske said:
No, that's not what I've been saying at all.

It's not?

Paidiske said:
Although in the specific instance under discussion in this thread, I do think the problem is the husband's.

Oh ok....it is.

Paidiske said:
No. I have said very clearly that one may ask. But that it is a request, and that the other is free to choose how they respond to that request.

Where did I say otherwise? We agree on this.

Paidiske said:
It's when it goes beyond that, to an expectation or sense of entitlement

I thought you agreed that the very nature of a serious long term relationship, especially marriage, involves obligations to one another?

Paidiske said:
And I am objecting to the use of the word "boundaries" in regard to controlling her behaviour.

Fundamentally, he can't control her behaviour by all indicators. Yet he's perfectly entitled to tell her how he feels about it and what he decides to do should she continue.

Paidiske said:
So maybe it would be a good thing if people don't advise him to become so.

Do you think I had anyone in mind when I gave you that hypothetical involving the friend or associate who complains about her husband?

J-316 · Tuesday at 6:41 PM

Ana the Ist said:
Nor should we expect him to.

Sure we would. He came here for advice and would certainly have shared any evidence had it existed.

Ana the Ist · Tuesday at 6:42 PM

J-316 said:
Sure we would.

We wouldn't. You might. I wouldn't.

Paidiske · Tuesday at 8:02 PM

Ana the Ist said:
I thought you agreed that the very nature of a serious long term relationship, especially marriage, involves obligations to one another?

Sure. But that doesn't extend to one spouse controlling things like whether or not the other gets a therapeutic massage.

Ana the Ist · 2024-11-13T02:49:19-0600

Paidiske said:
Sure. But that doesn't extend to one spouse controlling things like whether or not the other gets a therapeutic massage.

I'm sorry.....it's unclear what exactly you disagree on.

I get that you don't think he should impose a boundary regarding the massage.

But you do seem to agree he has every right to....is that it?

Paidiske · 2024-11-13T02:58:28-0600

Ana the Ist said:
I get that you don't think he should impose a boundary regarding the massage.

I object to the use of the word "boundary" in regard to controlling someone else's choices.

Ana the Ist said:
But you do seem to agree he has every right to....is that it?

To control her? No!

Our exchange in this thread began because you asked about my response to 2PhiloVoid, and then said, "I think it's also normal to express when something your spouse does makes you uncomfortable or bothers you in some ways and you try to set some boundaries." (Emphasis mine).

It was the "setting boundaries" part I took issue with, and what I've been trying to argue for, ever since, is that the idea of "boundaries" (which is necessary and healthy) is not about controlling one's spouse. That dynamics of control are abusive.

Ana the Ist · 2024-11-13T05:59:10-0600

Paidiske said:
I object to the use of the word "boundary" in regard to controlling someone else's choices.

We aren't talking about controlling someone's choices....you've insisted upon that for many of your last posts.

He can simply tell her how he feels because of her behaviour (exactly as you would if your husband were yelling at you) and then he can decide how much he wants to withdraw from the relationship, should she continue (just as you said you would should your husband continually yell at you).

He's not controlling her behaviour. He's simply deciding how much he wants out of the marriage....for his mental health.

See? I'll explain it your way....if she's unwilling to sacrifice a frequent and private nude massages from another man for the sake of her marriage....he should leave, with speed.

Paidiske · 2024-11-13T06:04:42-0600

Ana the Ist said:
We aren't talking about controlling someone's choices....you've insisted upon that for many of your last posts.

But you seem to still be using it that way. Eg. Post #401 "I'm only suggesting that the man set some boundaries."

If you're not suggesting that he attempt to control her actions, it is not at all clear to me what you mean by this.

And if all you're saying is that he should say either she stops the massages or he leaves, while I think that's a completely unreasonable and disproportionate response, I wouldn't describe it as "setting boundaries."

Ana the Ist · 2024-11-13T06:27:33-0600

Paidiske said:
But you seem to still be using it that way. Eg. Post #401 "I'm only suggesting that the man set some boundaries."

That's how I see it....but if you prefer, I can put the same self serving frame on this painting that you do.

Paidiske said:
If you're not suggesting that he attempt to control her actions, it is not at all clear to me what you mean by this.

I don't even understand what you mean by "control her actions"?

Did you think I was suggesting he chain her to the floor?.....how would he possibly control her actions?

Paidiske said:
And if all you're saying is that he should say either she stops the massages or he leaves, while I think that's a completely unreasonable and disproportionate response, I wouldn't describe it as "setting boundaries."

Ok....I understand that you're don't agree with his boundaries....but by your very own description, he would be setting boundaries.....wouldn't he?

I mean....your complete lack of consistency here is ridiculous. He's not forcing her to do anything....he's simply explaining that....

1. He thought the massages were something else.

2. He isn't comfortable with her frequently getting nude in private with a man who spends the next hour greasing her up and touching her body.

3. What he intends to do if she continues.

It is literally the exact same thing as you saying "I'm leaving the room until you stop yelling at me". Healthy boundary setting.

The only difference is that her thing appears to be ongoing....for who knows how long....and he obviously can't sit in his house alone and hope that's somehow going to improve his comfortability with the situation. This is something she does frequently and without him. I suppose he could wait till she gets home and then just leave for a few hours until she starts to get concerned (if that ever happens) and show back up at whenever he pleases to try and make a point....but I wouldn't suggest it as advice.

I'd tell him that even after 16 years of marriage, my wife wants me around constantly....and almost never wants time apart from me and even then it's typically for family. If she's willing to throw away the marriage because she doesn't understand why he would be uncomfortable with these massages.....then he should split. Separate financially first, leave the residence, acquire lawyer, serve papers.

Paidiske · 2024-11-13T06:33:58-0600

Ana the Ist said:
I don't even understand what you mean by "control her actions"?

Did you think I was suggesting he chain her to the floor?.....how would he possibly control her actions?

Do you not realise that coercive control - in various forms - is extremely common?

Ana the Ist said:
but by your very own description, he would be setting boundaries.....wouldn't he?

Not really, because it's still about her, not about him.

Ana the Ist said:
It is literally the exact same thing as you saying "I'm leaving the room until you stop yelling at me". Healthy boundary setting.

Except the constant yelling is a form of abuse, and getting a massage is not abusing, or in any way mistreating, your spouse. It doesn't impact him except in his own head.

Ana the Ist said:
If she's willing to throw away the marriage because she doesn't understand why he would be uncomfortable with these massages.....then he should split. Separate financially first, leave the residence, acquire lawyer, serve papers.

Heaven forbid we suggest he grow up and actually take responsibility for his own emotional reactions, and work through his issues.

o_mlly · 2024-11-13T07:32:09-0600

J-316 said:
Few people are going to risk their massage license and livelihood to do anything improper. Sure, some do, but they are statistical outliers and that is why they end up in the news.

Can you cite the study that you are referring to?

o_mlly · 2024-11-13T07:35:52-0600

Paidiske said:
There are objective differences between a professional therapeutic massage, and other kinds of massage.

Are you claiming that there can never be bad behavior in a professional therapeutic massage? If not then those adjectives are not meaningful in this thread.

o_mlly · 2024-11-13T07:42:40-0600

Paidiske said:
And if all you're saying is that he should say either she stops the massages or he leaves, while I think that's a completely unreasonable and disproportionate response, I wouldn't describe it as "setting boundaries."

And, what if a husband frequents a strip club to relax and enjoy his favorite beer on draft? Does his wife have a right to tell him that that behavior is out-of-bounds?

Wife getting massages

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