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Louisiana classrooms now required by law to display the Ten Commandments

The Liturgist

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Let's stick to this, everyone, the topic of the thread.

Louisiana is not being prevented from providing anything.

Louisiana is being prevented from compelling a particular religious text to appear in all public classrooms.

Compulsory religion is certainly not a 'traditional American value'. Quite the opposite.

It’s not compulsory religion, rather, it is presenting the moral code that most Americans outside of certain urban areas choose to live by. Including the vast majority of the people of Louisiana. Furthermore, the Decalogue was regarded as sacred by nearly all of the Founding Fathers.

The Establishment Clause was intended to prevent one denomination from being made the state church, and its raison d’etre was that different colonies were settled by different groups adhering to different religions, such as Puritans in New England, who had moderated their faith while becoming more pious thanks to the revival led by Jonathan Edwards, before becoming divided between Congregationalists and Unitarians, and meanwhile Pennsylvania was initially a Quaker colony, with New York having Baptist, Anglican and Dutch Reformed in substantial numbers, and the South being largely a mix of Presbyterians and Anglicans with some interesting groups like the Moravians and the Waldensians, and there were growing numbers of Roman Catholics, and Methodists were spread across all the colonies. Obviously one fear of the colonies as they became the United States was having another colony impose its own church on them.

However, the unifying national religious identity was and still is Christianity, with deep respect for the Jewish minority.
 
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essentialsaltes

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The Establishment Clause was intended to prevent one denomination from being made the state church
The Founders' intension is by no means so clear cut. SCOTUS has pretty consistently interpreted it more broadly, and obviously pointed to certain Founders for that position:

In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect “a wall of separation between Church and State.”

Likewise, Madison was clearly a strong separationist rather than accommodationist.

In Stone v Graham, which struck down the very similar Kentucky Ten Commandments Law, the Establishment Clause was the reason.
 
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BCP1928

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It's really not.

That's interesting.

I think you understand when teaching children things you don't teach then the same way you teach an adult. It's interesting you don't understand that.
What is being taught? I am not aware of any teaching guidelines being contemplated.
Because it's good morality.
Only six (depending on what version you adhere to) have to do with morality, none of it original or unique to the Bible. The rest are sectarian religious doctrine.
It seems it is striking fear in the hearts of athiest liberals. No it's not really disgusting at all. The ten commandments aren't right wing. Is that why liberals are so afraid of them?
No, I know you would like it to be "fear" but it isn't.
 
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rjs330

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What is being taught? I am not aware of any teaching guidelines being contemplated.
I think you lost track of that particular portion of the conversation. Go back and follow it. You'll probably figure it out.
Only six (depending on what version you adhere to) have to do with morality, none of it original or unique to the Bible. The rest are sectarian religious doctrine.
It's still good morality.
No, I know you would like it to be "fear" but it isn't.
It sure seems like it.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Is that why liberals are so afraid of them?

Many liberals are not afraid of the Ten Commandments, in fact many liberals they live by them, too. Christianity is not the exclusive territory of conservatives. What the opposition is afraid of is the erosion of the historic principals of the United States -- the separation of church and state and religious freedom for all.
 
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BCP1928

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I think you lost track of that particular portion of the conversation. Go back and follow it. You'll probably figure it out.
I have followed the conversation. I am not aware that the State of Louisiana has produced any teaching guidelines to interpretation and explain the poster.
It's still good morality.

It sure seems like it.
Merely concern about the overweening political ambition of the Christian right.
 
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RileyG

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The Founders' intension is by no means so clear cut. SCOTUS has pretty consistently interpreted it more broadly, and obviously pointed to certain Founders for that position:

In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect “a wall of separation between Church and State.”

Likewise, Madison was clearly a strong separationist rather than accommodationist.

In Stone v Graham, which struck down the very similar Kentucky Ten Commandments Law, the Establishment Clause was the reason.
I 100% agree with separation of Church of state. Freedom of religion or freedom FROM religion FOR ALL.

With that said, I don’t think secular atheists have the right to tell Christians what to do and vice versa.

Tolerance is a two way street.
 
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RileyG

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It’s not compulsory religion, rather, it is presenting the moral code that most Americans outside of certain urban areas choose to live by. Including the vast majority of the people of Louisiana. Furthermore, the Decalogue was regarded as sacred by nearly all of the Founding Fathers.

The Establishment Clause was intended to prevent one denomination from being made the state church, and its raison d’etre was that different colonies were settled by different groups adhering to different religions, such as Puritans in New England, who had moderated their faith while becoming more pious thanks to the revival led by Jonathan Edwards, before becoming divided between Congregationalists and Unitarians, and meanwhile Pennsylvania was initially a Quaker colony, with New York having Baptist, Anglican and Dutch Reformed in substantial numbers, and the South being largely a mix of Presbyterians and Anglicans with some interesting groups like the Moravians and the Waldensians, and there were growing numbers of Roman Catholics, and Methodists were spread across all the colonies. Obviously one fear of the colonies as they became the United States was having another colony impose its own church on them.

However, the unifying national religious identity was and still is Christianity, with deep respect for the Jewish minority.
Our country was founded on judeo-Christian values.

Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, sound familiar?

Yes, many founding fathers were deists, but that doesn’t change our history.

Peace
 
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The Liturgist

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Our country was founded on judeo-Christian values.

Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, sound familiar?

Yes, many founding fathers were deists, but that doesn’t change our history.

Peace

Indeed it was, which is why i feel Louisiana ought to be able to display those Ten Commandments in their public school classrooms.
 
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RileyG

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Many liberals are not afraid of the Ten Commandments, in fact many liberals they live by them, too. Christianity is not the exclusive territory of conservatives. What the opposition is afraid of is the erosion of the historic principals of the United States -- the separation of church and state and religious freedom for all.
Conservatives believe that too ;)
 
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RileyG

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This is entirely correct. The Left have tried to abuse the Constitution to muzzle Christians, although now they seem to want to change it, since the illegal suppression of church worship during the Pandemic was found unconstitutional, due to the first amendment.
People didn’t find house of worships essential….which was sad.
 
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RileyG

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Indeed it was, which is why i feel Louisiana ought to be able to display those Ten Commandments in their public school classrooms.
Do you mean from a historical perspective is why the 10 commandments should be displayed? Historically, we were a Christian majority nation…..I can’t say that’s true anymore, sadly.
 
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The Liturgist

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Many liberals are not afraid of the Ten Commandments, in fact many liberals they live by them, too. Christianity is not the exclusive territory of conservatives. What the opposition is afraid of is the erosion of the historic principals of the United States -- the separation of church and state and religious freedom for all.

But that ignores the fact that historically, there was prayer in US public schools. Whereas at present, there aren’t even chaplains in public elementary schools and high schools. Thus prison inmates have access to better pastoral care than our own children.

When I was in public school, my teachers repeatedly attacked my Christian faith, in addition to other unpleasant acts, for example, that time they brought a lobster to the class as a class pet on Monday, had us name it, write stories about it, and then brought a lobster pot and served it up on Friday, which reduced many of the students to tears. This class was a fourth grade class, with the students being between 9 and 10 years of age, and it was an advanced placement class.

And they did other things like that, of an abusive nature, repeatedly, and in so doing managed to dominate some of the students, and also convinced my Sikh friend Hartaj, who was very intelligent and strong, that he was, in their words and in his, “not very strong and not very bright.” It was so sad, seeing him suppressed that way. His parents owned a grocery store where he and I would build forts from the plastic shipping crates, and after the store had closed, we would go to the elevated office from which his parents would monitor the store during the day for loss prevention purposes, since this was before cheap and inexpensive video surveillance, and that office was amazing - we would pretend it was the bridge of a starship.

After that experience I returned to Lutheran parochial school, as I came to the conclusion that the advanced classes in the public school were not worth dealing with, since even though the fifth grade teacher had a very good reputation, there was the issue of sixth grade, and also every one of those kids had been traumatized badly, and while they were more intellectually gifted than my peers at the Lutheran school, they were also harder to be around as a result of the various things that had happened to them in the public school. For some reason the principal saw what was happening in my case and personally protected me from the worst of it, for which I am eternally grateful.

The principal of that school spared me from so much of their abuse once he became aware of it that indeed I don’t have words to express my gratitude. Years later he told me his own son, who was an adult, had a drug addiction problem, which was very sad. At any rate, in my childhood, I loved watching the series V, about the alien invasion, because the actor who played the supreme commander of the Visitor’s fleet, who like all the Visitors only had a first name in a touchy-feely-squeeze way, John, looked exactly like my principal, and even sounded like him, sans the special effects that were done to his voice to give it that weird echo effect (people who have seen that awesome 1980s miniseries will know what I am talking about).
 
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The Liturgist

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Do you mean from a historical perspective is why the 10 commandments should be displayed? Historically, we were a Christian majority nation…..I can’t say that’s true anymore, sadly.

We still are a Christian majority nation, according to all key metrics. It might not feel like it in some parts of the US, but it is the case. Christians are in the majority both in terms of a percentage of the population, and in terms of geography, except in Utah and small slices of the adjoining states, such as Colorado City, Arizona, located in the isolated Arizona strip, not connected by road to any other parts of Mojave County, and also the nearby portion of I-15 north of Mesquite and a few very small towns in that area in between Utah and Nevada, which are again isolated from the rest of Mojave County, where the Mormon religion is prevalent.

And the Mormons also adhere to the Decalogue.
 
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RileyG

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We still are a Christian majority nation, according to all key metrics. It might not feel like it in some parts of the US, but it is the case. Christians are in the majority both in terms of a percentage of the population, and in terms of geography, except in Utah and small slices of the adjoining states, such as Colorado City, Arizona, located in the isolated Arizona strip, not connected by road to any other parts of Mojave County, and also the nearby portion of I-15 north of Mesquite and a few very small towns in that area in between Utah and Nevada, which are again isolated from the rest of Mojave County, where the Mormon religion is prevalent.

And the Mormons also adhere to the Decalogue.
I believe large parts of Idaho also have a large Mormon population. Correct me if I’m wrong.
 
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A2SG

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Our country was founded on judeo-Christian values.

Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, sound familiar?
Yup. They're the only two of the ten commandments which are prohibited by law in this country. A third one, bearing false witness, would also be included, but only in the case of lying under oath in court (perjury). In all other cases, lying isn't illegal at all. In fact, except for very specific instances, the first amendment protects your right to lie.

As to the rest of the ten commandments: coveting, honoring your parents, worshipping other gods, etc....none of those are illegal. In fact, some are specifically protected rights under the Constitution.

This country may have been founded on values similar to those espoused by Judeo-Christian religions, but we are not required to follow them in every way.

-- A2SG, the only exceptions are laid out and specified when codified into law.....
 
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RileyG

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Yup. They're the only two of the ten commandments which are prohibited by law in this country. A third one, bearing false witness, would also be included, but only in the case of lying under oath in court (perjury). In all other cases, lying isn't illegal at all. In fact, except for very specific instances, the first amendment protects your right to lie.

As to the rest of the ten commandments: coveting, honoring your parents, worshipping other gods, etc....none of those are illegal. In fact, some are specifically protected rights under the Constitution.

This country may have been founded on values similar to those espoused by Judeo-Christian religions, but we are not required to follow them in every way.

-- A2SG, the only exceptions are laid out and specified when codified into law.....
Regardless, our founding fathers came from a religious based country of England (Anglican) and based their laws on the Decalogue.

Christianity has influenced our country whether you like it or not.

Remember the Puritans who were very intolerant?

;)
 
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A2SG

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Regardless, our founding fathers came from a religious based country of England (Anglican) and based their laws on the Decalogue.
Except that they didn't. Look again at the First Amendment: you have the Constitutionally protected right to worship whatever god you wish to, you also have the Constitutionally protected right to bear false witness if you want to (except when under oath). Beyond that, what laws prohibit coveting, not honoring your parents, making graven images, or working on Sunday (or whatever you consider the sabbath to be)? (I'll even give you that adultery used to be illegal, but those laws have been ruled unconstitutional.)

Christianity has influenced our country whether you like it or not.
I didn't say it didn't. I only said that our laws are not based on the bible generally, or the ten commandments specifically.

Remember the Puritans who were very intolerant?

;)
Yup. I also remember that the Puritans did not found a nation on these shores, nor were they involved in founding the nation that was.

-- A2SG, I also suspect they'd have more than a few problems with the way that nation was set up...were they still around much by that time.....
 
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Chesterton

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When I was in public school, my teachers repeatedly attacked my Christian faith, in addition to other unpleasant acts, for example, that time they brought a lobster to the class as a class pet on Monday, had us name it, write stories about it, and then brought a lobster pot and served it up on Friday, which reduced many of the students to tears. This class was a fourth grade class, with the students being between 9 and 10 years of age, and it was an advanced placement class.
Are you serious? :eek:

I remember in elementary school being explicitly taught moral relativism. They'd give us tests with questions like "A man's wife is sick and he can't afford her medicine. Is it okay for him to steal money?"

And also being taught transcendental meditation. Teacher told me I didn't have to practice throwing a baseball, I should just sit with my eyes closed and visualize myself throwing perfect strikes. I tried it. Suffice to say I never made it into MLB.

And being taught from a popular self-help book called "Born To Win". As a kid I remember thinking the same thing conservatives say today - "Aren't you supposed to be teaching me reading, 'riting and 'rithmatic"? Why were they teaching me these weird quasi-religious philosophies?
His parents owned a grocery store where he and I would build forts from the plastic shipping crates,..
You just brought back a childhood memory. I don't know what his parents did, but a friend had a ton of plastic crates and we'd do the same thing. Large, elaborate forts. :)
 
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