So, apparently The Church Is Israel

LoveofTruth said:

Good point and we see clearly two groups Israel and the Gentiles in these verses and others

Romans 11: 25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

And both groups have believers who are called the children of God. But we do see a distinction and we don’t read if the Gentiles being called Jews or Israel. As I understand this far.


Romans 9: 24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.”

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Yeah that's kinda where I am, where there's a distinction, and yet there's also a unity. Like 2 groups that are bound together and have the same destiny, note both need Christ to get that inheritance.

What I see in Zechariah 12:10 is "those that pierced Him" recognizing who their Messiah and God is. They come to Christ. I connect that with Romans 11 where Paul talks about their blindness being healed, and them being grafted back in.

It's all nuanced.

But a lot of people have these polarizing positions on it. Either declaring that the Church is the true Israel and God's done with Israel after the flesh, or that there's 2 totally different plans 1 for the Church, 1 for Israel and the 2 have nothing to do with each other.

Jamdoc said:

Yeah that's kinda where I am, where there's a distinction, and yet there's also a unity. Like 2 groups that are bound together and have the same destiny, note both need Christ to get that inheritance.

What I see in Zechariah 12:10 is "those that pierced Him" recognizing who their Messiah and God is. They come to Christ. I connect that with Romans 11 where Paul talks about their blindness being healed, and them being grafted back in.

It's all nuanced.

But a lot of people have these polarizing positions on it. Either declaring that the Church is the true Israel and God's done with Israel after the flesh, or that there's 2 totally different plans 1 for the Church, 1 for Israel and the 2 have nothing to do with each other.

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I think of it this way also. There is neither male nor female in Christ yet there are still words to males and females in the church. They are new creations in Christ but distinct still

Jamdoc said:

But a lot of people have these polarizing positions on it. Either declaring that the Church is the true Israel and God's done with Israel after the flesh, or that there's 2 totally different plans 1 for the Church, 1 for Israel and the 2 have nothing to do with each other.

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Instead of using the term "church", using the "Body of Christ" would be clearer.

The Body of Christ's destiny is in the heavens (Ephesians 1:3)

True Israel's destiny is to rule the Earth (Matthew 5:5).

Both groups are listed here (Ephesians 1:10)

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Gregory Thompson said:

replacement thelogy thread.

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The obedient Jews have not been replaced. Our Apostle Paul was a Jew. So were others who together were included in Jesus Christ's younger church. Because of obedient Jews, we have been reached for Jesus.

But there were Jews who refused Jesus. They have not been replaced but have chosen to stay out. But we will see how the prophesies work out for Jews who have disobeyed how God wants to bless us through Jesus.

There are still Jews who are trusting in Jesus for salvation. God has never replaced the Jews who obey.

com7fy8 said:

The obedient Jews have not been replaced. Our Apostle Paul was a Jew. So were others who together were included in Jesus Christ's younger church. Because of obedient Jews, we have been reached for Jesus.

But there were Jews who refused Jesus. They have not been replaced but have chosen to stay out. But we will see how the prophesies work out for Jews who have disobeyed how God wants to bless us through Jesus.

There are still Jews who are trusting in Jesus for salvation. God has never replaced the Jews who obey.

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Just reminds me of something someone used to say, expected more of a fight over the concept.

Don't care either way. There's neither Jew nor Gentile.

HarleyER said:

The Church is not Israel. The Church is a subset of Israel.

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Well, there is the flesh and blood people who are Jews, flesh and blood Israel. But if they do not obey Jesus, they are not part of His church. And so the church can not be a subset of the disobedient Jews, right? Of course, ones might be flesh and blood Jews who are saved; yet, our Apostle Paul says that if we are in Jesus > "There is neither Jew nor Greek" > in Galatians 3:28. So, spiritually we are all the same, in Jesus.

And yet, we have the church called "the Israel of God", I would say, going by Galatians 6:16 >

"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:16)

To me, this means the obedient are "the Israel of God". This is not replacement, but "better" >

In Hebrews 11:16 we have how there is a better country >

"But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them." (Hebrews 11:16)

And Paul talks about "the Jerusalem above" >

"but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:26) This could be or included in the "heavenly" that the writer of Hebrews 11:16 is talking about.

You say, "One has to look at the entire history. Believers before the church came into existence were heirs of Abraham. Believers after the church came into existence have been grafted into the family of Abraham. Today, one cannot be a believer in Christ without being in His church, but the church is part of the Israel that walked by faith."

I see you may be making a distinction which I have offered > that the Israel of God, in any case, is not flesh and blood Jews who are disobedient!! But those who have walked by faith are the ones of God, including ones, you mean, who came before the church got started on earth.

Yeah, I think I see what you mean.

I guess we could explain, then, that if the true Israel has been on earth as long as anyone has lived by faith . . . a lot of flesh and blood Jews have never been a part of this; so, then, they can not possibly be getting "replaced", if they never were in, in the first place!

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." (Romans 2:27-28)

Guojing said:

Instead of using the term "church", using the "Body of Christ" would be clearer.

The Body of Christ's destiny is in the heavens (Ephesians 1:3)

True Israel's destiny is to rule the Earth (Matthew 5:5).

Both groups are listed here (Ephesians 1:10)

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

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Both group's destiny is to rule the Earth.

Revelation 2

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

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Just throwing this in there before some dispy nonsense about this not being to the Church but to Israel gets thrown out there..

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

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The whole point of all redemptive History is to make a New Earth, populated with God's people, 2 flocks become 1 flock with 1 Shepherd as He put it in John 10, and God lives on that New Earth.

People need to De-Greek, just.. remove Plato from your thought processes.

and furthermore, the Jews that live on the New Earth will be part of the Body of Christ. Christ is the root, and we're all branches, some of the branches got broken off for unbelief, the Gentiles grafted in, but the unbelieving branches can be grafted back in, and their root is still Christ.
There is no separate plan for the salvation of Israel that doesn't involve Christ.

Jamdoc said:

Both group's destiny is to rule the Earth.

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If you read Ephesians 1:10, what does it literally says where each of them is at?

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 2

Just throwing this in there before some dispy nonsense about this not being to the Church but to Israel gets thrown out there..

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The entire book of Revelation is about the nation of Israel, not the Body of Christ

Jamdoc said:

There is no separate plan for the salvation of Israel that doesn't involve Christ.

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Yes of course both plans involved Christ, that is what Ephesians 1:10 states.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Guojing said:

If you read Ephesians 1:10, what does it literally says where each of them is at?

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



The entire book of Revelation is about the nation of Israel, not the Body of Christ


Yes of course both plans involved Christ, that is what Ephesians 1:10 states.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

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Boy, i wasn't aware that the CHURCH in Asia Minor was to unbelieving Israel.

You're hopeless when you start with that stance. Dispensationalism really requires dispensing with solid hermeneutics and reality.

You need to degreek.
God created what He wanted the first time, He's remaking it. He's not making some plato dualistic system of 1 group of people existing as pure spirit in heaven and another group existing on Earth having a physical resurrection.

John 10

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

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I wanted to pack the verses that show the Gospel is not just from Paul first because the typical hard dispy backbite is to say only Paul had the Gospel involving Gentiles. But here it is.

One fold
One shepherd
but it starts as other sheep (the Gentiles) that need to be brought in. They would be brought in by the Apostles.

Paul says we are grafted in.
Yet you refuse to listen to him.
Does the idea of sharing an eternity with Jews offend you?

Jamdoc said:

Dispensationalism really requires dispensing with solid hermeneutics and reality.

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I notice you kept avoiding the actual verse I used, Ephesians 1:10.

I can understand why. Paul even used the term "dispensation" there, I guess to you, he is also "dispensing with solid hermeneutics and reality"

Alright then.

Guojing said:

I notice you kept avoiding the actual verse I used, Ephesians 1:10.

I can understand why. Paul even used the term "dispensation" there, I guess to you, he is also "dispensing with solid hermeneutics and reality"

Alright then.

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1 verse isn't how you make doctrines.

Guojing said:

The entire book of Revelation is about the nation of Israel, not the Body of Christ

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Really? What about the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? Indeed, John says that the whole of Revelation was written to "the seven churches which are in Asia":

“John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,” (Re 1:4 NKJV)

Besides, why would you want to exist as a ghost "in heaven" while Jesus is ruling physically on Earth?
because when Revelation 21 and 22 are describing the New Earth, God and the Lamb are on the New Earth. When Isaiah 65 is describing the New Earth, God is rejoicing among His people in Jerusalem.

Why would you want to be somewhere else than the New Earth?

David Lamb said:

Really? What about the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? Indeed, John says that the whole of Revelation was written to "the seven churches which are in Asia":

“John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,” (Re 1:4 NKJV)

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He's one of those hard dispensationalists that literally only thinks the epistles of Paul are to Gentile Christians.

Jamdoc said:

He's one of those hard dispensationalists that literally only thinks the epistles of Paul are to Gentile Christians.

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And I am one of those HARD DIEPENSARIONALIST am not surprised by your reply .

And here why we believe that Peter was the Preacher to ONLY to Israel .

Gal 2:7 says that Peter was a preacher to the CIRCUMCISION , PERIOD !! Why was what Peter preached NOT called a GOSPEL ??

Also , in Gal 2:14 definitely , Peter was a Jew , WHY do you COMPEL the GENTILES to ADOPT Jewish CUSTOMS and RITES ??

Because the THE GOSPEL of the CIRCUMCISION was to be set side as written in Acts 28:25--28 !!

Verse SEVEN says that Paul preached the Gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION !!

dan p

David Lamb said:

Really? What about the churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? Indeed, John says that the whole of Revelation was written to "the seven churches which are in Asia":

“John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,” (Re 1:4 NKJV)

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The term "Body of Christ" is not synonymous with the term "church", the latter term means "called out assembly"

The Body of Christ is indeed the church for today

But in scripture, there are churches that are not the Body of Christ, whether in time past (Acts 7:38). or the age to come.

So in Rev chapter 1, those churches are churches in the age to come.

Jamdoc said:

1 verse isn't how you make doctrines.

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I can give you other verses, but you and I know it won't matter.

Jamdoc said:

He's one of those hard dispensationalists that literally only thinks the epistles of Paul are to Gentile Christians.

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That is what Galatians 2:7-9 KJV is literally saying.

Guojing said:

That is what Galatians 2:7-9 KJV is literally saying.

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There is one Gospel. the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

There isn't another gospel that saves. There aren't multiple ways of getting saved based on "dispensation"
the only difference for old testament saints were they were looking forward in faith to Jesus rather than after the fact of the crucifixion.

Jamdoc said:

There is one Gospel. the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

There isn't another gospel that saves. There aren't multiple ways of getting saved based on "dispensation"
the only difference for old testament saints were they were looking forward in faith to Jesus rather than after the fact of the crucifixion.

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This new point is actually off topic to the point you originally brought up, about Paul being sent to the uncircumcised.