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Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

bling

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False misrepresentation, I clearly referenced as Per Rom 5:12 all sinned in Adam

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Briefly it does not say "all sinned in Adam", but "death came to all people, because all sinned". The word "all" does not always mean everyone who has or will be conceived.
You are still not addressing the question about how just being conceived causes you to sin?
 
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Brightfame52

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There is a subtle difference between the idea that all have sinned and all are sinners.
I clearly referenced as Per Rom 5:12 all sinned in Adam

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
 
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Brightfame52

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Briefly it does not say "all sinned in Adam", but "death came to all people, because all sinned". The word "all" does not always mean everyone who has or will be conceived.
You are still not addressing the question about how just being conceived causes you to sin?
Thats how I understand it, all sinned in Adam, so consequently all die. Similar as in 1 Cor 1522


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 

bling

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All men sinned in Adam and incurred death, death to God spiritually, physically, eternally. Babies sinned in the Adult Adam
What death is 1 Cor. 15: 22 Talking about, what is the context.

Is this death what you posted in 692: “death to God spiritually, physically, eternally. Babies sinned in the Adult Adam”

No it cannot be, since it is talking about Christ dying: 1 Cor. 15: 20…”Christ has indeed been raised from the dead…”and 1 Cor.15:19 “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.” this is only referring to physical death, being raised from physical death.

Yes, physical death is the result of sin and we all will sin if we reach maturity, Adam has shown us that.
 
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bbbbbbb

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What death is 1 Cor. 15: 22 Talking about, what is the context.

Is this death what you posted in 692: “death to God spiritually, physically, eternally. Babies sinned in the Adult Adam”

No it cannot be, since it is talking about Christ dying: 1 Cor. 15: 20…”Christ has indeed been raised from the dead…”and 1 Cor.15:19 “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.” this is only referring to physical death, being raised from physical death.

Yes, physical death is the result of sin and we all will sin if we reach maturity, Adam has shown us that.
The question comes down to whether or not we are all sinners from the very moment of our conception or whether our sin is imputed the moment we actually commit a sin.
 
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Brightfame52

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What death is 1 Cor. 15: 22 Talking about, what is the context.

Is this death what you posted in 692: “death to God spiritually, physically, eternally. Babies sinned in the Adult Adam”

No it cannot be, since it is talking about Christ dying: 1 Cor. 15: 20…”Christ has indeed been raised from the dead…”and 1 Cor.15:19 “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.” this is only referring to physical death, being raised from physical death.

Yes, physical death is the result of sin and we all will sin if we reach maturity, Adam has shown us that.
In Rom 5:12 death is threefold, spiritual, physical, eternal. In 1 Cor 15 its about physical death,yet the principle is the same as in Rom 5:12
 
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bbbbbbb

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In Rom 5:12 death is threefold, spiritual, physical, eternal. In 1 Cor 15 its about physical death,yet the principle is the same as in Rom 5:12
In what sense do you understand eternal life to be eternal. Does it have no beginning or end, or does it have a commencement with the new birth?
 
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bling

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The question comes down to whether or not we are all sinners from the very moment of our conception or whether our sin is imputed the moment we actually commit a sin.
Where are you getting the ideas are "imputed", why not forgiven?
 
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bling

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In Rom 5:12 death is threefold, spiritual, physical, eternal. In 1 Cor 15 its about physical death,yet the principle is the same as in Rom 5:12
Paul wrote both letters and knows what death means. The 1 Cor 15 is a lot more that just one short sentence on the subject.
 
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bling

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It is absurd to imagine that one is forgiven the moment one commits a sin.
How and when do you want to be forgiven?
When do you forgive your own children?
When did the Father of the prodigal son forgive the son?
Jesus on the cross asked the Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing so did the Father give Christ what He was asking for?
This brings up the whole "subject" of forgiveness which I use Matt. 18 the most to show: Forgiveness is a transaction and not just one sided, in other words: The Forgiver can "forgive", (Like God doing His part constantly forgiving His children), yet forgiveness does not take place.

Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce an immediate follow-up question in the mines of the hearers, yet the apostles would be slow to ask Jesus, so what is on their hearts which? This parable is the follow-up answer to the question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

If I was there at this time, when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77, I would think: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?”

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asked: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this also from going through this amount of money, but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?

In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.

This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not even imagine hearing an unbelievable: “Your debt has been totally unconditionally forgiven”, so what did he hear?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again, since they still owe us for the last time.

These are teaching moments.

God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.
 
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bbbbbbb

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How and when do you want to be forgiven?
When do you forgive your own children?
When did the Father of the prodigal son forgive the son?
Jesus on the cross asked the Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing so did the Father give Christ what He was asking for?
This brings up the whole "subject" of forgiveness which I use Matt. 18 the most to show: Forgiveness is a transaction and not just one sided, in other words: The Forgiver can "forgive", (Like God doing His part constantly forgiving His children), yet forgiveness does not take place.

Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce an immediate follow-up question in the mines of the hearers, yet the apostles would be slow to ask Jesus, so what is on their hearts which? This parable is the follow-up answer to the question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

If I was there at this time, when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77, I would think: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?”

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)

Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asked: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this also from going through this amount of money, but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?

In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.

This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not even imagine hearing an unbelievable: “Your debt has been totally unconditionally forgiven”, so what did he hear?

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?

Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again, since they still owe us for the last time.

These are teaching moments.

God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.
I think you fail to perceive the conundrum that Paul addresses in Romans 8. If we must sin in order to be forgiven and to receive God's grace, then we ought to sin as frequently as humanly possible in order to have God shower His grace and forgiveness upon us.
 
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bling

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I think you fail to perceive the conundrum that Paul addresses in Romans 8. If we must sin in order to be forgiven and to receive God's grace, then we ought to sin as frequently as humanly possible in order to have God shower His grace and forgiveness upon us.
Wow, can I take pride in being accused of teaching the same thing Paul was accused of teaching: Romans 3:8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just! Yet Paul goes on: Ro. 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

There is lots of bad stuff which happens that helps us in our future, but it would be much better if through the power of God’s Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit we avoided sinning.
 
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FredVB

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Does creation inform us about Jesus Christ - His person and work?

No one is with legitimate excuse to not recognize there is one God, our Maker, who we need. God is not willing that any just perish. Such who acknowledge that much God would make aware of sin that separates any from God, that they would be led to come to repentance. Such who do and respond to what God provides with needed faith, God would provide the essential knowledge, even with witnesses brought across the globe to reach them. God does make the essential gospel easy, without even requirement to yet stop sinning, which we should be brought to still. God lets things go on still that are because of the hardness of hearts. That is what I see from God not willing that any just perish. But God wants more from believers, that the gospel has more than the small opportunity to reach others instead. The gospel for salvation should be much more available.
 
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bbbbbbb

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No one is with legitimate excuse to not recognize there is one God, our Maker, who we need. God is not willing that any just perish. Such who acknowledge that much God would make aware of sin that separates any from God, that they would be led to come to repentance. Such who do and respond to what God provides with needed faith, God would provide the essential knowledge, even with witnesses brought across the globe to reach them. God does make the essential gospel easy, without even requirement to yet stop sinning, which we should be brought to still. God lets things go on still that are because of the hardness of hearts. That is what I see from God not willing that any just perish. But God wants more from believers, that the gospel has more than the small opportunity to reach others instead. The gospel for salvation should be much more available.
Back to my question. I will rephrase it. Is general revelation in creation sufficient for a person to be saved and enter into heaven, without any specific revelation concerning Jesus Christ and His work?
 
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bling

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No one is with legitimate excuse to not recognize there is one God, our Maker, who we need. God is not willing that any just perish. Such who acknowledge that much God would make aware of sin that separates any from God, that they would be led to come to repentance. Such who do and respond to what God provides with needed faith, God would provide the essential knowledge, even with witnesses brought across the globe to reach them. God does make the essential gospel easy, without even requirement to yet stop sinning, which we should be brought to still. God lets things go on still that are because of the hardness of hearts. That is what I see from God not willing that any just perish. But God wants more from believers, that the gospel has more than the small opportunity to reach others instead. The gospel for salvation should be much more available.
Is it God's fault the Gospel is not more available?
Every individual needs the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's offer, like the apostles had, but that requires Christ approaching them as a human one one one, spending time with them, listening to them on a level plan, mentoring them, teaching them, correcting them and Loving on them, which means True disciples allowing Christ to live through them mentoring others. Can you do that?
 
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FredVB

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When God told us to do things for the gospel to reach others, God forbid we would say it is God's fault for not reaching them. We are supposed to do things for the gospel to be more available to others, as we were told to do. We each can do something for that, even helping another to do so.
 
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