There is no Free Will PERIOD

BNR32FAN said:

You make this claim when the passage we’re talking about God has specifically said that He is giving them the choice between life and death and “BUT IF THEIR HEART SHOULD TURN AWAY” they will surely perish. So not only do they have the ability to choose between turning away or not that choice has a direct effect on their salvation. Hopefully you don’t believe that they can turn away from God and only receive a physical death.

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Do you not know that if one thinks themselves to have accepted the Lord, and considers themselves to be part of the Body of Christ, they can still be wrong??? If they turn away, they were never of the Elect.

But the passage isn't even talking about that, but about commitment! A person can dedicate their heart to a certain course, (as is demonstrated repeatedly in the story of the Children of Israel between Egypt and the Promised Land, not to mention afterwards), and then turn away. I should think you have seen in yourself plenty of times, as I have in my life, that MY commitment has no eternal merit, and is not worth even describing by the word, "integrity", nevermind "eternal". Has not God proven this to you repeatedly?

BNR32FAN said:

Logically? Are you trying to say that God made them sacrifice their children to Molech then rebuked them and punished them for it? Is that what you call logical? Do you not see how your theology profanes the very nature and character of God? There’s nothing illogical about God rebuking and punishing people for committing evil acts if they did it by their own free will.

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God indeed did set about every single tiniest circumstance, down to the motions of every "God-particle" involved in what they did, including the fact that fire burns. But he did NOT command them to do it, nor did it ever enter his mind that they should (as in obeying a command) do it.

"MADE them do it???" Are you suggesting that I think they did not choose to do it??? Far from it!!! They absolutely, according to the rebellion of their sinful mind of flesh, chose to do it, just as God intended that they do, (NOT COMMAND, BUT DECREE (plan)).

Were they going to do it? Absolutely, and that is what he intended to come to pass, and that is what happened. You too might benefit from watching this video, at least halfway through. I don't know how in the world anyone can think that something can happen that God did not intend.

BNR32FAN said:

How can you apply this logic to the rest of scripture where God is constantly giving man commandments and man is repeatedly disobeying. What we actually see in scripture is God commanding everyone to obey and very few of them actually comply. You would say that the 12 apostles obeyed Jesus because He commanded them to do so yet Jesus also commanded the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees to believe and they refused. You’re only looking at the very few passages where people actually obeyed God and ignoring the majority of passages where people didn’t even tho they were specifically commanded to do so.

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What I'm looking at is what actually happens to people.

God ask all people to come to Him. This is the outward call. But no one listens. God has to change the heart. This is the inward call.

I will agree this is very difficult to understand, but it is simply what happens. Nicodemus had the same issue with understanding how one can be born again. The Spirit moves where it will. You can talk till you're blue in the face with Uncle Bob and nothing will happen. Aunt Gertrude, on the other hand, suddenly sees the light and comes to know Christ.

Those examples in scripture such as Moses, David, Samson, Samuel, Paul, etc. only confirms what is obvious.

@Panthers , why the alien theme?

Panthers said:

There is no free will, period.
Choice is an illusion. (lie)

The argument is useless.
It just reinforces the lie, that there is a choice;
when there is not.

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Then why don’t you actually engage in the discussion and explain the passages I quoted instead of popping in & out of the discussion only to throw out a verse here & there like a drive by shooter. Your posts are like a slap & run away technique. I mean you’re the one who started this thread and you won’t even participate in the discussion. Here I’ll post them again.

“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,”

‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30‬:‭15‬-‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight.””

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.”

‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭7‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Clare73 said:

They haven't been told yet what they are to obey in that particular case.

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Why do they need to be told anything if they don’t have the ability to choose and God has already predestined their fate? Are they going to choose to obey or disobey? Not according to your theology.

Mark Quayle said:

God indeed did set about every single tiniest circumstance, down to the motions of every "God-particle" involved in what they did, including the fact that fire burns. But he did NOT command them to do it, nor did it ever enter his mind that they should (as in obeying a command) do it.

"MADE them do it???" Are you suggesting that I think they did not choose to do it??? Far from it!!! They absolutely, according to the rebellion of their sinful mind of flesh, chose to do it, just as God intended that they do, (NOT COMMAND, BUT DECREE (plan)).

Were they going to do it? Absolutely, and that is what he intended to come to pass, and that is what happened. You too might benefit from watching this video, at least halfway through. I don't know how in the world anyone can think that something can happen that God did not intend.

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We’re not discussing what God intended, we’re discussing whether or not people choose their own fate. God foreseeing someone being disobedient and allowing it to take place then punishing them for it is a completely different situation than God directly causing or making someone disobey then punishing them for it, especially when that punishment is the most severe punishment that anyone can ever receive. There’s nothing temporary about being thrown into the lake of fire.

Rose_bud said:

God's wrath is a just righteousness response to the violation of His holy nature.

I've grappled with similar questions in my walk with God. I saw Jesus as kind and gentle, but struggled to reconcile the Father's character, perceiving Him as an angry God, ready to punish me every time I messed up. (guess it was all the fire and brimstone preaching I was exposed too. Forever the sinner in the hands of an angry God). I just couldn't understand why they appeared so different. However, I brought my concerns to God one day. And there it was the faithful gentle whisper of the Spirit in my heart: If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. This truth transformed my understanding. It was Him all along. I realized that God's holy nature demands justice, and His wrath towards rebellion is a righteous judgment, not an emotional reaction. Yet, His patience and longsuffering reveal a love that desires redemption, as seen in in the character of the Son.
By taking a step back to see the big picture has helped me in a way to understand the nuances of God's amazing nature.

But you still accepted. Nobody accepted on your behalf, nobody manipulated, forced or coerced you. With the empowering and knowledge that God gave you concerning Him, regardless if it wasn't fully understood. It was you that accepted and received the gift. You responded to the desire.

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God's wrath is a just righteousness response to the violation of His holy nature.

I think that is a perfect discription.

But you still accepted. Nobody accepted on your behalf, nobody manipulated, forced or coerced you.

That's the point, I never accepted anything. God revealed to my heart that my behavior was sinful. I repented, asked forgiveness, and been following Christ since then.

HarleyER said:

What I'm looking at is what actually happens to people.

God ask all people to come to Him. This is the outward call. But no one listens. God has to change the heart. This is the inward call.

I will agree this is very difficult to understand, but it is simply what happens. Nicodemus had the same issue with understanding how one can be born again. The Spirit moves where it will. You can talk till you're blue in the face with Uncle Bob and nothing will happen. Aunt Gertrude, on the other hand, suddenly sees the light and comes to know Christ.

Those examples in scripture such as Moses, David, Samson, Samuel, Paul, etc. only confirms what is obvious.

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But I’m specifically pointing out verses that explain why it happens. These passages should be taken into consideration on this topic as well because it’s imperative to know why people will be thrown into the lake of fire.

BNR32FAN said:

We’re not discussing what God intended, we’re discussing whether or not people choose their own fate. God foreseeing someone being disobedient and allowing it to take place then punishing them for it is a completely different situation than God directly causing or making someone disobey then punishing them for it, especially when that punishment is the most severe punishment that anyone can ever receive. There’s nothing temporary about being thrown into the lake of fire.

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I'm including to OT bible verses you have been quoting.

God seemed to think/see that there was some kind of other possibility of them choosing another way (and neither one of them was 100%) and seemed to not know how He would choose to act or react until they did either way.

That is not the behavior of a 100% always all-knowing God who always knows all about everything.

That is why those OT verses you have been quoting are told from the perspective of choice, etc.

And there was also just not any other kind of way of explaining it to them back then as well, etc.

As many of you are still having trouble with it still even now, etc.

This is precisely why I think that Jesus was proposing a Higher God than God in the OT, and is why God in the OT went by a new name/identity after Jesus, etc.

And became the Spirit of Christ, and God the Holy Spirit, etc.

Who fell upon the believers/apostles at Pentecost, etc.

And gave birth to the NT church after that, etc.

And has been guiding it/building it/developing it/helping it grow ever since, etc.

Until Jesus comes back or returns from where that Highest God was always at, etc.

God in the OT's duty and charge now is to prepare the bride for the bridegrooms return now, etc.

And that has been his new job and duty ever since Christ now, etc.

After Jesus return will start the 7th day, and YHWH will finally be able to get his rest for a little while, etc.

Until the end of the whole thing anyway, etc.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

God seemed to think/see that there was some kind of other possibility of them choosing another way (and neither one of them was 100%) and seemed to not know how He would choose to act or react until they did either way.

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Or God warned them so that they would have no excuse for not knowing why they were being punished on Judgement Day. It has nothing to do with God not knowing anything. In order for us to be justly punished for committing sins against God two things are required. We have to have some way of knowing beforehand what God’s expectations are, and we have to be capable of complying with those expectations. If either one of these are absent then the person can’t be justly punished.

BNR32FAN said:

Or God warned them so that they would have no excuse for not knowing why they were being punished on Judgement Day. It has nothing to do with God not knowing anything. In order for us to be justly punished for committing sins against God two things are required. We have to have some way of knowing beforehand what God’s expectations are, and we have to be capable of complying with those expectations. If either one of these are absent then the person can’t be justly punished.

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If God in any way ever expected us to choose any differently than what we chose, then he didn't know everything. Also if any of those possibilities were ever any less than 100% also, etc.

Also, people don't face consequences, or get rewards, for anything they did or chose, etc, but only because of the way they were made, etc.

God Bless.

BNR32FAN said:

Or God warned them so that they would have no excuse for not knowing why they were being punished on Judgement Day. It has nothing to do with God not knowing anything. In order for us to be justly punished for committing sins against God two things are required. We have to have some way of knowing beforehand what God’s expectations are, and we have to be capable of complying with those expectations. If either one of these are absent then the person can’t be justly punished.

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So he warned them so that when they chose what he already knew they were going to choose, he did this so that they could be justly punished for it when there was never any kind of real possibility of them ever choosing another way?

Hell is not what people think it is either, but it's still very, very bad, etc.

Hell is always only being a bad vessel, only fit for a bad use, and not being able to change that ever, for all eternity, etc.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

If God in any way ever expected us to choose any differently than what we chose, then he didn't know everything. Also if any of those possibilities were ever any less than 100% also, etc.

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Wrong, not if God foreknew the choices we would make, some of which were influenced by His commandments. What God has foreseen is the outcome of our choices as a result of His commandments. Some people choose to obey and some don’t. Our ability to choose is the only reason God gave us commandments. If we didn’t have the ability to choose to obey because God has already predestined everything that will happen then His commandments are completely pointless. Why give commandments to someone who doesn’t have any choice but to do what you make them do? It’s completely illogical and it’s completely unbiblical which is what I’ve been demonstrating this entire discussion.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why is the outcome of the tree still uncertain even tho Jesus is giving it special attention in an attempt to save it? Why isn’t it predestined to bear fruit if Jesus is specifically trying to save it?

Neogaia777 said:

So he warned them so that when they chose what he already knew they were going to choose, he did this so that they could be justly punished for it when there was never any kind of real possibility of them ever choosing another way?

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Why do you keep saying that there was “never any possibility of them choosing another way”? He foresaw what they chose, they had a choice, they made that choice, and God foresaw it. If God foresaw what they would choose to do it doesn’t mean that they never had a choice to begin with otherwise God wouldn’t have actually foresaw their choice in the first place, He would’ve foresaw His own choice, not their’s.

Mark Quayle said:

What makes you choose it is the strongest and most prevalent influences, affecting your mental and physical desires. I don't see how you can think that any choice is made out of a void. There are always causes. Even God chose out of his desire (if "desire" is a worthy descriptor).

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Yes, but God didn't have his desired choice predermined, neither do I believe we do. I know I have said it a few times already, but my strongest argument against our choices being predetermined by God is the issue of responsibility.

Mark Quayle said:

Of course it cannot. Particularly libertarian freewill in the creature! At best that is a metaphysical proposal. And more to the point, it is a false construction, self-defeating. It invokes either secondary first causes, or the force of mere chance, both of which are self-contradictory.

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Science can not know what free will is, there can be theories, but science does not know.

Mark Quayle said:

I think that you would agree that compared to God, our consciousness and sentience and self-awareness hardly figures on any scale.

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True, but you want to calculate how God makes all His intentions come to pass, where I'm happy to say I don't know how God does it. I just know He can do it (in spite of our free libertarian will) because He is sovereign, but then I don't mean sovereign in the Calvinistic sense, rather just all powerful, who can do whatever He pleases.

Mark Quayle said:

Then, as I said, you invoke secondary first causes, which is logically self-contradictory.

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I don't know exactly what you mean. Maybe you can explain what you mean and how that is self-contradictory?

Mark Quayle said:

Do me a favor and watch the first half, if not the whole thing, of this video. In it, you will hear described in extremely condensed manner, enough of the story of our redemption, beginning with the account of Joseph's coat of many colors, a whole series of seemingly 'improbable' events, where I have to imagine, from your POV, that you would see many many multiple interventions by God to keep history steered toward the cross, (which I think you will agree that the cross, at least, was predetermined by God) —enough of the story, I say, that it seems to me impossible to not see God's providence and causation throughout. And in the whole story, are human creatures making choices, that inexorably result in the Cross.

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I saw the video. I like that Sproul has a sense of humor, kind of fun to listen to him, you never know what he will say. Much of what he says I agree with. Of course when he says sovereign he means God is micromanaging cosmos, where I don't see where the Bible says that or even why it would be a necessary thing for God to do to have His will come to pass. I do think Sproul did a good job showing God gets His will done, more than showing how free libertarian will would go against that. He seems to rely on mystery when it comes to how God's decree and our responsibilty can coexist. I don't think these matters are even meant to be fully explained, so turning to mystery is not a bad thing.

Mark Quayle said:

What makes you choose it is the strongest and most prevalent influences, affecting your mental and physical desires. I don't see how you can think that any choice is made out of a void. There are always causes. Even God chose out of his desire (if "desire" is a worthy descriptor).

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This is just a sly way of saying that God controls us while attempting to sidestep all the fallacies that are associated with it.

BNR32FAN said:

Why do they need to be told anything if they don’t have the ability to choose and God has already predestined their fate? Are they going to choose to obey or disobey? Not according to your theology.

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You have me confused with someone else.

BNR32FAN said:

This is just a sly way of saying that God controls us while attempting to sidestep all the fallacies that are associated with it.

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In spite of all your attempts, the "fallacies" you think inherent in the Reformed view of things all have their own fallacies.

Bear in mind, in responding, that God upholds all things by the power of his word. In him we live and move and have our being. Thus, there is nothing that can happen apart from his causation; whether his causation is merely deistic or eminently immanent, he caused everything to come to be. Thus, your choices are caused by him. You have so far been unable to reason that away, though your soul may cry, "foul".