Why did God Punish Snakes Instead of Satan?

throughfiierytrial · Feb 17, 2024

misput said:
Did it ever stand against anyone, unless they tried to be totally justified by it (which is to have faith in ones self) and not by faith in God?

Colossians 2:13-14:
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

This is what I meant, sorry for not being very thorough. I guess I was agreeing with you and thought this passage was on your mind too. ???

misput · Jul 16, 2024

Paulus59 said:
The snake is a metaphor for Satan. God is not punishing snakes, but Satan.

And satan is a metaphor for fleshly man. Didn't Christ call Peter satan when Peter offered a fleshly response to Jesus stating His mission?

Rose_bud · Jul 16, 2024

The curse of the serpent can also be seen as prophetic relating to Genesis 3:15. Where the phrase "on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life" (Genesis 3:14) may not only be a physical description of the serpent's new state but a metaphorical one.

In this sense, the prophetic judgement is that the offspring of Eve (humanity) would have dominion over the serpent and its spiritual descendants (evil forces). The phrase "you shall eat dust" could mean the serpent's defeat and humiliation, as well as its eventual destruction. The serpent would be brought low. The serpent, once a lofty and cunning creature, tempting and deceiving would be brought low.
This makes sense to me in light of Micah 7:17 and Psalm 72:9 which has similar imagery. God will humble his enemies.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring, He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

So, in this sense, the curse is not only a punishment but also a prophetic declaration of the ultimate triumph of the Promised Seed (Jesus), who would crush the serpent's head. Jesus would humble and defeat his enemy.

Derf · Jul 16, 2024

Rose_bud said:
The curse of the serpent can also be seen as prophetic relating to Genesis 3:15. Where the phrase "on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life" (Genesis 3:14) may not only be a physical description of the serpent's new state but a metaphorical one.

In this sense, the prophetic judgement is that the offspring of Eve (humanity) would have dominion over the serpent and its spiritual descendants (evil forces). The phrase "you shall eat dust" could mean the serpent's defeat and humiliation, as well as its eventual destruction. The serpent would be brought low. The serpent, once a lofty and cunning creature, tempting and deceiving would be brought low.
This makes sense to me in light of Micah 7:17 and Psalm 72:9 which has similar imagery. God will humble his enemies.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring, He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

So, in this sense, the curse is not only a punishment but also a prophetic declaration of the ultimate triumph of the Promised Seed (Jesus), who would crush the serpent's head. Jesus would humble and defeat his enemy.

"Dust" is what God called man:
Genesis 3:19 KJV — In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Satan is a dust eater, i.e., he destroys mankind.

Rose_bud · Jul 17, 2024

Derf said:
"Dust" is what God called man:
Genesis 3:19 KJV — In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Satan is a dust eater, i.e., he destroys mankind.

That's an interesting perspective. Yet we do see the serpent intent on destroying Adam an Eve, albeit with a lie even before being cursed.

SavedByGrace3 · Jul 17, 2024

Derf said:
"Dust" is what God called man:
Genesis 3:19 KJV — In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Satan is a dust eater, i.e., he destroys mankind.

Psalms 103:14 KJV
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Dale · Jul 18, 2024

misput said:
The Old Covenant with all it's laws and works has not literally disappeared so maybe this is referring to the New Covenant giving us a "better" Spiritual understanding of God and salvation. What thinkest thou? : )

That is a good point.

Derf · Jul 18, 2024

Rose_bud said:
That's an interesting perspective. Yet we do see the serpent intent on destroying Adam an Eve, albeit with a lie even before being cursed.

Yes, but perhaps it wasn't quite as adversarial on Satan's part. In other words, something changed in Satan's position in God's universe when he deceived Eve. Maybe he was even restrained by God from tempting Adam, but got around it by deceiving Eve.

Rose_bud · Jul 19, 2024

Derf said:
Yes, but perhaps it wasn't quite as adversarial on Satan's part. In other words, something changed in Satan's position in God's universe when he deceived Eve. Maybe he was even restrained by God from tempting Adam, but got around it by deceiving Eve.

What do you mean by the above? I don't quite follow?

Derf · Jul 19, 2024

Rose_bud said:
What do you mean by the above? I don't quite follow?

Satan was cursed for his role to become a "dust-eater", but he wasn't that before. If it refers to human beings, then he brings death to them, it sounds like, but before that wasn't his role. And if he was in the garden just after creation, when God called everything "very good", then he must have had a "very good" role in the garden. It doesn't seem like his role was to tempt Adam and Eve, and Adam's sin was the one that brought death to the world, not Eve's. So I'm just wondering what role that was, and if he had some restraints put on him in his role, such that he might think he can violate those restraints in a "subtil" way, since the serpent was the most subtil of all the animals in the garden. Remember that Satan was not allowed to go beyond the restraints put on him when he tempted Job--first he wasn't allowed to touch Job himself (only his stock, servants, and children--Note that Job's wife was probably spared from the first ordeal because she was "one flesh" with Job), then he wasn't allowed to take Job's life. I doubt that the serpent in the garden was allowed to take the life of either Adam or Eve, but he ended up doing just that by getting them to eat of the tree, i.e., they killed themselves.

Deblee · Aug 12, 2024

Dale said:
Genesis says that the snake, or serpent, was an animal. It was smarter than other animals, but still an animal.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild
animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman,
“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the
garden’?
Genesis 3:1 NIV

Yes, it says the serpent was a wild animal. If I say that the snake in the Garden of Eden story is an animal many people think I an introducing some kind of newfangled revisionism. They have been told that the serpent is the Devil, Satan. At the end of the same chapter, God pronounces punishment on the serpent, to be borne by all other serpent until the end of time.

So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have
done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the
wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat
dust all the days of your life.”
Genesis 3:14 NIV

At the end of Genesis 3, the serpent is still a wild animal. The serpent is cursed to lose its legs, and crawl on the ground.

Everyone tells me that the Devil tempted Eve. I’m not sure if the Devil turned himself into a snake, or if he possessed the snake and spoke through the snake. Either way, this poses a question. If it was the Devil who tempted Eve, why did God punish the serpent?

Somewhere in Bible, Jesus states that He saw satan fall like a star from heaven. We also know there was a great battle between the "good angels" and the"bad angels." I have often wondered if this ties in with the account in Genesis.

Suppose that the temptation of Eve was the trigger point for the battle between the angels. We also know that satan was given dominion over our fallen world. He is the prince of the power of the air here. But God did not intend that dominion as a reward. It's more like a punishment.

Satan was second in heaven only to God. But he was thrown down to earth (to eat dust all the days of his life, metaphorically speaking). It has been said that satan hates us humans, that he prowls the earth seeking whom he may devour.

What brought about this rage in him? Well, if he lost his exalted position in heaven and has been demoted to tempter for all humanity (a position that would not have been necessary if not for the temptation of Eve), a position that could be likened to "crawling on his belly" compared to his former exalted status, that would go a long way toward explaining his hatred of our kind.

Suppose furthermore that when God pronounced punishment on satan, he stirred up rebellion amongst the angels and tried to take heaven by force. The loss of that battle would be the occasion when Jesus saw satan plummet to the earth.

Perhaps satan did speak to Eve through some sort of serpent. God could have pronounced judgement upon him using the metaphor of a serpent as a further message to satan that God was up to his tricks.

It all hangs together, I believe, but of course it's only surmise and we will never know the truth of that, or many other things, until we are on the other side.

DennisF · Sep 11, 2024

Paulus59 said:
The snake is a metaphor for Satan. God is not punishing snakes, but Satan.

First, humans are also animals. We are the most advanced (that we know of) among them, but we are in the same ontological category as the lower animals.

Second, Satan is an angel. They are "a little more" advanced than humans (scripture says). Angels are in the more general category of what nowadays we call ETs. Satan "fell like lightning from heaven". That is, he "crash-landed from space" (unless he was residing in the troposphere!). There is considerable talk in the UAP-UFO community about reptilian ETs. Snakes do not have intelligence; Satan does. My working hypothesis is that Satan is a reptilian ET.

There could be at the root of this question a translation problem. There is no word in Hebrew for the modern classification of reptile. Snakes are reptiles and if there is a class of ETs who are reptilian, then Satan could be one of them.

Diamond72 · Sep 11, 2024

DennisF said:
First, humans are also animals.

We were made in the image of God and God breathed the breath of life into Adam and Eve. Everything in the universe is connected. We are made up of the same atoms as everything else.

DennisF · Sep 12, 2024

misput said:
And satan is a metaphor for fleshly man. Didn't Christ call Peter satan when Peter offered a fleshly response to Jesus stating His mission?

You can take it that way, but in his usual habit of discourse, Jesus had a larger view and was addressing Satan for whom Peter conveniently fit his purpose at the moment. Peter was clearly not Satan, nor was his subsequent behavior cognizant of such recognition. If any of the inner circle fits that characterization it would have been Judas.

Dale · Sep 14, 2024

Deblee said:
Somewhere in Bible, Jesus states that He saw satan fall like a star from heaven. We also know there was a great battle between the "good angels" and the"bad angels." I have often wondered if this ties in with the account in Genesis.

Suppose that the temptation of Eve was the trigger point for the battle between the angels. We also know that satan was given dominion over our fallen world. He is the prince of the power of the air here. But God did not intend that dominion as a reward. It's more like a punishment.

Satan was second in heaven only to God. But he was thrown down to earth (to eat dust all the days of his life, metaphorically speaking). It has been said that satan hates us humans, that he prowls the earth seeking whom he may devour.

What brought about this rage in him? Well, if he lost his exalted position in heaven and has been demoted to tempter for all humanity (a position that would not have been necessary if not for the temptation of Eve), a position that could be likened to "crawling on his belly" compared to his former exalted status, that would go a long way toward explaining his hatred of our kind.

Suppose furthermore that when God pronounced punishment on satan, he stirred up rebellion amongst the angels and tried to take heaven by force. The loss of that battle would be the occasion when Jesus saw satan plummet to the earth.

Perhaps satan did speak to Eve through some sort of serpent. God could have pronounced judgement upon him using the metaphor of a serpent as a further message to satan that God was up to his tricks.

It all hangs together, I believe, but of course it's only surmise and we will never know the truth of that, or many other things, until we are on the other side.

Deblee, I’m glad you decided to contribute to this thread.

The notion of a fall of Satan or a fall of the rebel angels is based on a series of misunderstandings. It is an interpretation that was added later, long after the quoted passages were written.

Deblee: “Jesus states that He saw satan fall like a star from heaven ...”

This would only refer to a fall of Satan if the verse is ripped completely out of its context. The context is that Jesus has sent out the 72 disciples on their mission and they have returned. When Jesus says that Satan fell from heaven, He isn’t talking about the origin of evil, the origin of Satan or the origin of demons. He is giving a compliment to the seventy-two disciples. He is saying that Satan crashed while the disciples were out preaching.

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the
demons submit to us in your name.”
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and
scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy;
nothing will harm you.
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but
rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
Luke 10:17-20 NIV

Deblee: “Satan was second in heaven only to God. But he was thrown down to earth …”

I don’t believe this story or these ideas are found in the Bible. There is no section of the Bible that answers our questions about angels. The same is true of demons. We know that they exist and they are a bad influence but we are not told much about them. Hebrews Chapter 1 & 2 tells us more about angels than any other part of the Bible. These chapters don’t mention a fall of Satan or a fall of rebel angels. Satan is mentioned in Hebrews 2:14 but we are told only that he “holds the power of death.” Satan can only hold this power over those who are in his power, of course.

Dale · Sep 14, 2024

DennisF said:
First, humans are also animals. We are the most advanced (that we know of) among them, but we are in the same ontological category as the lower animals.

Second, Satan is an angel. They are "a little more" advanced than humans (scripture says). Angels are in the more general category of what nowadays we call ETs. Satan "fell like lightning from heaven". That is, he "crash-landed from space" (unless he was residing in the troposphere!). There is considerable talk in the UAP-UFO community about reptilian ETs. Snakes do not have intelligence; Satan does. My working hypothesis is that Satan is a reptilian ET.

There could be at the root of this question a translation problem. There is no word in Hebrew for the modern classification of reptile. Snakes are reptiles and if there is a class of ETs who are reptilian, then Satan could be one of them.

Dennis, thanks for joining the discussion. I don’t believe in reptilian aliens, so I won’t deal with that.

Dennis: “Second, Satan is an angel.”

Actually, I don’t know any passage in the Bible that tells us that Satan is an angel, or that he ever was one. You can see my answer to Deblee in #95 for an introduction to my view on that.

Some take II Corinthians 11:14 to mean that Satan was an angel of light, who fell, but can still assume that form. That isn’t really what the passage says. First, notice that what Paul is talking about, the problem of false teachers. He isn’t talking about the origin of evil or the origin of Satan.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen,
masquerading as apostles of Christ.
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of
light.
It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as
servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions
deserve.
II Corinthians 11:13-15 NIV

The KJV is a little harder to follow in this passage, but a careful reading leads to the same conclusion.

For such [are] false apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
II Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV

The KJV does not say that Satan ever was an angel of light at some time in the past. It says that Satan “is transformed into an angel of light,” but only in the sense that false apostles pretend to be real apostles, and Satan’s ministers are “transformed as the ministers of righteousness.” The KJV of this passage tells us that Satan pretends to be an angel of light, just as false apostles pretend to be real apostles and satanic ministers pretend to be genuine ministers.

Diamond72 · Sep 14, 2024

Deblee said:
What brought about this rage in him?

Ezekiel 28

17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;

you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;

so I cast you to the earth;

Dale · Sep 16, 2024

Diamond72 said:
Ezekiel 28

17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;

you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;

so I cast you to the earth;

Diamond,

The Chapter you are quoting is talking about the King of Tyre.

The word of the LORD came to me:

“Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the
Sovereign LORD says: “‘In the pride of your heart you say,
“I am a god; I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the
seas.” But you are a man and not a god, though you think
you are as wise as a god.
Ezekiel 28:1-2 NIV

Did Satan live in “the heart of the seas?” No.

By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth …
Ezekiel 28:5 NIV

I am going to bring foreigners against you, the most ruthless
of nations ...
Ezekiel 28:7 NIV

This applies to a mortal man, the ruler of a coastal city, not to Satan.

You will die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of
foreigners. I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”
Ezekiel 28:10 NIV

The person referred to in Ezekiel 28 is not cast out of heaven while retaining immortality. He dies.

“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre ...
Ezekiel 28:12 NIV

We are still talking about the King of Tyre.
Diamond, you quoted part of Ezekiel 28:17 but not the entire verse.

Ez. 28:17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendour. So I
threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before
kings.
Ez. 28:18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated
your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it
consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in
the sight of all who were watching.
Ez. 28:19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have
come to a horrible end and will be no more.’”

When was Satan a spectacle before kings? In the next verse we see that the person the prophecy is about does “dishonest trade” and is “reduced to ashes.” Again, being “reduced to ashes” is not the same as being thrown out of heaven while remaining immortal. Ezekiel 28:19 tells us that this person “will be no more.”

Dale · Sep 16, 2024

Diamond72 said:
Ezekiel 28

17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;

Diamond72 said:
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;

The meaning of Ezekiel 28:13-14 is a little harder to unravel.

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone
adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and
jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on
the day you were created they were prepared.
You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained
you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked
among the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:13-14 NIV

John Gill’s commentary provdes some enlightenment on this.

<< Ezekiel 28:13
Ver. 13. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God,.... Not only in Eden, but in
the garden which was in Eden, and was of the Lord's immediate planting; and
therefore called the garden of God, as well as because of its excellency,
fragrancy, and delight; not that the king of Tyre was literally there, or ever
dwelt in it; but his situation in Tyre was as safe, and as pleasant and delightful,
as Adam's was in the garden of Eden, at least in his own imagination. So the
Targum,
"thou delightest thyself with plenty of all good things and delectable ones, as if
thou dwellest in the garden of God;'' >>

What of the mention of “guardian cherub” in verse 14? John Gill’s commentary:

<< Ezekiel 28:14
Ver. 14. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth,.... In allusion to the
cherubim over the mercy seat, which covered it with their wings; and which,
as the ark of the testimony and all the vessels of the tabernacle were anointed,
were so likewise; in all probability the king of Tyre is called a "cherub"
because of his wisdom and power; "anointed", because of his royal dignity;
and "that covereth", because of his office, which was to protect his people; all which he either was, or ought to be, or was in his own opinion so: antichrist
makes great boasts of his wisdom, power, and authority, as a teacher, pastor, or
bishop, the cherubim being symbolical of the ministers of the word; and of his
being anointed by men, that he may be the cover and shield of the church; and
of his being the Lord's anointed, and the vicar of Christ, and head and protector
of the church, as he calls himself {s}. The Targum understands all this of regal
power, and renders it,
"thou art a king anointed for a kingdom:'' >>

The King of Tyre was never really in Eden but was in a place of delight and safety. Likewise, the King of Tyre was never a cherub in the Jewish or Christian sense, but was anointed as a king.

Why did God Punish Snakes Instead of Satan?

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