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The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role

PloverWing

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still waiting for one verse even one that shows the church is a man made building that Christ is building.

This bit of terminology seems to be very important to you.

In English, the word "church" is used to mean at least four different things:
1) An individual congregation
2) A larger group of congregations, held together with an organizational structure: "The Church of England", "The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America", "The Church of South India".
3) The collection of all Christians worldwide.
4) A dedicated building in which Christians gather to worship.

There's no point denying that any of these four exist. They exist, regardless of what we call them. But I gather that you don't like using the same English word to refer to all four.

Would you be satisfied if four different words were used? Perhaps, "congregation" for #1, "denomination" for #2, "Universal Church" for #3, and "church building" for #4?
 
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LoveofTruth

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This bit of terminology seems to be very important to you.

In English, the word "church" is used to mean at least four different things:
1) An individual congregation
2) A larger group of congregations, held together with an organizational structure: "The Church of England", "The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America", "The Church of South India".
3) The collection of all Christians worldwide.
4) A dedicated building in which Christians gather to worship.

There's no point denying that any of these four exist. They exist, regardless of what we call them. But I gather that you don't like using the same English word to refer to all four.

Would you be satisfied if four different words were used? Perhaps, "congregation" for #1, "denomination" for #2, "Universal Church" for #3, and "church building" for #4?
I simply stick with the biblical church and the word in scripture for the church that Christ is building. If it is not according to scripture and makes the word of God of no effect then we should reject it and not go beyond that which is written.

The church Jesus is building is NEVER referred to as a man made building. I’m sure many theologians and believers would agree.

The word in Greek as used by Jesus, Paul, Peter and others is a called out assembly of people

There is no other meaning in scripture for the church Christ is building.
 
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PloverWing

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I simply stick with the biblical church and the word in scripture for the church that Christ is building. If it is not according to scripture and makes the word of God if no effect then we should reject it and not go beyond that which is written.

The church Jesus is building is NEVER referred to as a man made building. I’m sure many theologians and believers would agree.

The word in Greek as used by Jesus, Paul, Peter and others is a called out assembly of people

There is no other meaning in scripture for the church Christ is building.

Okay, so we can use the Greek word εκκλησία instead of the English word church, since the English language postdates the first century AD.

When you say εκκλησία, do you mean an individual congregation (#1 in my list), or an organized group of congregations (#2 in my list), or the collection of all Christians who have ever lived (#3 in my list)?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Okay, so we can use the Greek word εκκλησία instead of the English word church, since the English language postdates the first century AD.

When you say εκκλησία, do you mean an individual congregation (#1 in my list), or an organized group of congregations (#2 in my list), or the collection of all Christians who have ever lived (#3 in my list)?
1 Corinthians 12: 12., 13,14 “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14. For the body is not one member, but many.”

Romans 12: 5. “So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”

Ephesians 1: 22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
 
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PloverWing

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1 Corinthians 12: 12., 13,14

I have a Bible. I'm trying to figure out how YOU are using the words. From the verses you've quoted, I'll guess that you use the word εκκλησία for meaning #3 in my list, namely, the collection of all Christians who have ever lived.

Do you have any word that you use to describe the congregation that gathers in your house?

I understand that you disapprove of any building in which Christians worship that is not a private residence. Still, some congregations do not have any members who are wealthy enough to own houses in which there is room for dozens of people to gather. Thus, larger, communally-owned buildings do exist, in which Christians gather and worship. Would you be willing to use the term "Meeting House" to describe these communally-owned buildings? (This is the terminology used by the Religious Society of Friends and some other Christian groups.)
 
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LoveofTruth

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I have a Bible. I'm trying to figure out how YOU are using the words.
I'm using the words the way believers use them in the scriptures.
From the verses you've quoted, I'll guess that you use the word εκκλησία for meaning #3 in my list, namely, the collection of all Christians who have ever lived.
i use the word Church, as in Greek, but as used by Jesus in his teaching of what the church is and Paul and Peter etc. If you look up the word church in Greek, you will find a general meaning of a called out assembly.

"ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church." *Strongs)

You will not find the unbelieving Greek people of Paul's time understanding the body of Christ or the house of God made of living stones . But thats how the scripture define the church that Jesus is building. If you were to ask a Greek in those days "is the church "ekklēsía" the body of Christ?" they wouldn't know what you were talking about and say no. But according to scripture the church is the body of Christ. The same can be said for the word "temple", it has pagan origins and does not mean the body of believers as the temple of God. That is how it is used by Jesus Christ in scripture. Jesus also refers to the temple of His body. The word Temple however in Greek has pagan origins. So Jesus uses words that are redefined in a spiritual sense referring to the body of Christ. If you stick with the literal Greek word from that time no one would define the church as the body of Christ. But the called out assembly of believers called out of the dark world and into Christ and His kingdom will use it that way.

Does that help?
Do you have any word that you use to describe the congregation that gathers in your house?
"... the church which is in his house.” ( Colossians 4:15) Same Greek word "ekklēsía"

and this "ekklēsía", is the body of Christ (though not in the Greek definition, but as we see spiritually interpreted by the Spirit of God through Paul who wrote scripture.)

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to thechurch, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." ( Ephesians 1:22,23)
I understand that you disapprove of any building in which Christians worship that is not a private residence.
No I didn't say that. I object to calling a man made building a church, which fights against the true church and function of the church. i also object to a large castle-like structure unbiblically called a church", where there is one man at the front exalted above all and where all are (by the very structure of these places) forced to look at the back of someones head and where no body ministry can happen or edifying one another in Christ because of the Lecture type format and the man made By-Laws that don't allow freedom. And I object to these things according to scripture and the commandments of the Lord. What I am sharing about body ministry is the commandments of the Lord for the church.

Yes, there is the church as the whole body of Christ and there is also churches, referring to the church in different areas and there is the church which meets in their homes referring to that particular part of the church.
Still, some congregations do not have any members who are wealthy enough to own houses in which there is room for dozens of people to gather.
I never said all have to have the same ;Large homes. Believers can meet in many different size homes and places as long as body ministry in edification in Christ can happen and they can see each other and have a meal together with all gifts and ministries allowed to happen as Christ participates with them. I also believe I mentioned these things already and I even said two or more in a prison cell can gather in Christ.
Thus, larger, communally-owned buildings do exist, in which Christians gather and worship.
if they are too big for mutual edification or if there is seating facing the front on a altar with steps where the one man over all is exalted above all, then they are not good for the function of the church. At best they can be used for evangelism etc.
Would you be willing to use the term "Meeting House" to describe these communally-owned buildings? (This is the terminology used by the Religious Society of Friends and some other Christian groups.)
No, I don;t need to use such terms. Although the term is not the issue. Unless you call a man made building a church. The church meets in the house is fine. For example we might say the church meets at Johns home .

I am also not speaking of "communally-owned buildings". When you say "communally" are you speaking of believers all living in one place?
 
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PloverWing

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I am also not speaking of "communally-owned buildings". When you say "communally" are you speaking of believers all living in one place?

No, I'm speaking of buildings that are owned by a congregation, but which are not owned by any single family in the congregation. For example: My congregation has about 50 people in attendance on any given Sunday. That's too many people to meet in any one person's home, so we meet in a building owned by the congregation as a whole. We each contribute financially to the maintenance of the building, and those contributions pay for heating, electricity, and so forth. Some building upkeep is done by volunteer members of the congregation, because we see it as a building that belongs to all of us.

The nearby Quaker congregation has a similar collectively-owned building, and they call theirs a Meeting House. I'm comfortable with the "Meeting House" terminology, if you'd prefer that. But it does seem useful to have some term to refer to the building.
 
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Bobber

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The nearby Quaker congregation has a similar collectively-owned building, and they call theirs a Meeting House. I'm comfortable with the "Meeting House" terminology, if you'd prefer that. But it does seem useful to have some term to refer to the building.
Do you really even have to bother with trying to come up with a new term? So when someone asks, "Where is your church" do you really feel it's necessary to confuse them by saying, "No, no, no I'm really not going to tell you where our church is for we don't call it that! We call it the Meeting House!"

Couldn't all this be rather counterproductive? One spouse could say to another in private, "I don't know. They seem a little nutty! I asked a simple question where their church was and they give me some strange wield lecture." Why not just say YES tell them where the church is and deal with semantics after they grow spiritually down the road. It all just seems like an overload of information they don't need at a beginning time. .
 
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LoveofTruth

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Do you really even have to bother with trying to come up with a new term? So when someone asks, "Where is your church" do you really feel it's necessary to confuse them by saying, "No, no, no I'm really not going to tell you where our church is for we don't call it that! We call it the Meeting House!"

Couldn't all this be rather counterproductive? One spouse could say to another in private, "I don't know. They seem a little nutty! I asked a simple question where their church was and they give me some strange wield lecture." Why not just say YES tell them where the church is and deal with semantics after they grow spiritually down the road. It all just seems like an overload of information they don't need at a beginning time. .
Well, it’s kind of like when sone come into the home meetings in Jesus day they might have said, “where is the priest or should we go to the temple etc.?”. Or in modern days today if some come into home meetings they might wonder where is the building or the pastor. It takes time to adjust to truth when people have been so part of a system or brainwashed for a long time.

Can you imagine how other religions would have adjusted to now coming into Christian gatherings? Or how the Jews must have struggled knowing that their whole religious understanding was to change? That the temple was no more needed or sacrifices etc.?

But truth is what we must follow and speak in love.
 
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PloverWing

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Do you really even have to bother with trying to come up with a new term?

For purposes of this conversation, yes. LoveofTruth and I clearly have deep disagreement about some important things. Additionally, we use some theological vocabulary differently. If we can take a few minutes to settle on mutually acceptable vocabulary, then we can get past that barrier and talk about actual concepts. I want to understand LoveofTruth's point of view better, hence this conversation; he and I probably have some points of agreement, despite our disagreement.

So when someone asks, "Where is your church" do you really feel it's necessary to confuse them by saying, "No, no, no I'm really not going to tell you where our church is for we don't call it that! We call it the Meeting House!"

I'm comfortable switching vocabulary as I talk about different Christian traditions. "I go to St. Mark's Episcopal Church, on Elm Street, and our priest is Mother Johnson. First Baptist Church is over on Maple Street, and their pastor is Mr. Smith. The Mullica Hill Friends Meeting is on Main Street; they don't have clergy, but any of their members would be happy to talk with you."
 
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LoveofTruth

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No, I'm speaking of buildings that are owned by a congregation, but which are not owned by any single family in the congregation. For example: My congregation has about 50 people in attendance on any given Sunday. That's too many people to meet in any one person's home, so we meet in a building owned by the congregation as a whole. We each contribute financially to the maintenance of the building, and those contributions pay for heating, electricity, and so forth. Some building upkeep is done by volunteer members of the congregation, because we see it as a building that belongs to all of us.

The nearby Quaker congregation has a similar collectively-owned building, and they call theirs a Meeting House. I'm comfortable with the "Meeting House" terminology, if you'd prefer that. But it does seem useful to have some term to refer to the building.
Hello again, and God bless.

I understand what your saying and I don’t have any problem for a assembly to purchase a home or area to gather as long as body ministry can take place and a meal and the church can function in that place. But generally, I have found that in a gathering of 30-49 people most of them have homes.

We even had a home meeting of 70 people in a larger home it was wonderful and we still had ministry to one another, songs, testimonies, teaching, revelation, prophesy, gifts, , a full meal, fellowship etc.

In fact, the largest home meeting we see is in scripture in Acts where the 120 met in the upper room of a house. So I guess 120 can still function in a gathering. But if it got too big find two homes to meet in.

One of the problems is that many of these large temple-like structures are patterned primarily after the Constantine era where large pagan temples or Basilicas were used for the church to meet in abd eventually became “the church”.

And in these large pagan temple type places all the seats are arranged for the most part facing foreward looking at the back of someone’s head to the exalted man on a altar above the rest. This totally quenches and hinders body ministry abd mutual edification which believers are commanded to allow in scripture.
 
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LoveofTruth

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The Mullica Hill Friends Meeting is on Main Street; they don't have clergy, but any of their members would be happy to talk with you."
I have visited a some Quakers before. But I find they are soo far off in sone things it’s difficult to find unity. The original men like George Fox or Robert Barclay are interesting though. But the modern day Quaker (Society of friends) have many issues.

For example and I visited the meeting in Toronto .they were sitting around in a circle and waiting for ministry. This was good but then some spoke up a worldly poem about peace another I believe mentioned something about Buddhist ideas etc. I was sitting there and had a scripture section opened right when the woman spoke about a false earthly peace.(I didn’t see or hear any Bibles there or scripture used at all) I quoted to them where Jesus says that he did not come to bring peace in the earth but a sword to divide. I spoke this verse that corrected the worldly quote about peace that was put into the meeting. Then after I spoke they were quite and seemed to ignore the verse. And another spoke sone confusion and I was about to share again and a man tried to cut me off and said something about a limit in speaking. This was false and quenching the spirit in all .

Interestingly when I went to their library room after I found a book where their founder George Fix spoke out and was silenced and attacked and it seems if men like their founder even came there they would silence him. So, I found strange things among them even one if their leaders questioned the existence if God…
 
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PloverWing

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For example and I visited the meeting in Toronto .they were sitting around in a circle and waiting for ministry. This was good but then sone spike up a worldly poem about peace snother I believe mebtioned something about Buddhist ideas etc. I was sitting there and had a scripture section opened right when the woman spoke about a false earthly peace.(I didn’t see or hear any Bibles there or scripture used at all) I quoted to them where Jesus says that he did not come to bring peace in the earth but a sword to divide. I spoke this verse that corrected the worldly quote about peace that was put into the meeting. Then after I spoke they were quite and seemed to ignore the verse. And another spoke sone confusion and I was about to share agsin and a man tried to cut me off and said something about a limit in speaking. This was false and quenching the spirit in all .

It sounds like you were violating the etiquette of Meeting for Worship, which includes the ideas that 1) the Meeting is not the place to argue with each other; 2) after a person speaks in the Meeting, everyone should sit in silence for a while and reflect on what has been said; and 3) no one speaker is supposed to dominate the Meeting.

The practices of speaking from silence and of listening both to the Light in ourselves and the Light in others are practices that take a while to learn. It's a whole different religious culture, very different from most church group gatherings.

In any case, I mentioned the Friends only as an example of a Christian assembly that don't have a "pastor king" and don't use the word "church" to describe their meeting houses. If you prefer an assembly where you get to talk for long stretches, and where you get to have hearty, boisterous arguments, then a Friends Meeting is probably not the best home for you. :)
 
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LoveofTruth

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It sounds like you were violating the etiquette of Meeting for Worship,
No I was waiting on the Lord as scripture commands and even their gatherings have that waiting understanding. The violation, was that they were in the flesh many of them, and not in the spirit and in their order is man made .
which includes the ideas that 1) the Meeting is not the place to argue with each other;
First of all, there was no real argument, just sharing a truth, another tried to stop it and i didn’t argue.

Secondly, when a person speaks in the gatherings as led by God, they are not intending to argue or dispute or have to judge anything. But you are not correct here, for sometime when the saints gather there will be spirit led discussions and even disputes over serious matters, there will also be judgement of things said by others, and correction , instruction and this can even get heated at times as we see in scripture,

“When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.”...And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.” *Acts 15)

“But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Galatians 2:16)

"Let the prophets speak two or three, and
let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." ( 1 Corinthians 14:29-31)

“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell
it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”" (Matthew 18:17)

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that
I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” (2 Corinthians 12;21)

"Holding fast the faithful word
as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake... This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:9-11,13,14)

"But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." (2 Cor 11:12,13)

2) after a person speaks in the Meeting, everyone should sit in silence for a while and reflect on what has been said;
Not always, we read that even if a person is speaking and another has a revelation, the person speaking at that moment should be sensitive to the leading and hold his peace and give place to the other,

"If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted." 9 1 Cor. 14:30,31)

Sometimes, if there is gainsayers among the meeting who speak false things, they need to be rebuked sharply (which means to cut them off in the middle of their talk).

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake... This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:9-11,13,14)

sharply - ἀποτόμως apotómōs, ap-ot-om'-oce; adverb from a derivative of a comparative of G575 and τέμνω témnō (
to cut); abruptly, i.e. peremptorily:—sharply(-ness).

ἀποτόμως, adverb (cf. ἀποτομία);

a. abruptly, precipitously.
b. tropically, sharply, severely [cf. our curtly]

and 3) no one speaker is supposed to dominate the Meeting.
I did not dominate any meeting and to speak more than once is not dominating. To quench the spirit is dominating by the one who tries to do this.
The practices of speaking from silence and of listening both to the Light in ourselves and the Light in others are practices that take a while to learn.
I had many years of this already and had been very familiar with waiting on the Lord in gatherings. I eagerly wait to hear the true body and the word and revelation in Christ. But when some speak fleshly carnal talk and error. This can deceive and hurt others, So believers should address these things and put the brethren in remembrance of things. By doing so they are a good minister. But today they are treated like irritants and bothersome people, sadly

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained." ( 1 Timothy 4:1-5)


It's a whole different religious culture, very different from most church group gatherings.
There is only one church way in Christ and all believers should seek to walk in Gods order. God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all the churches of the saints. Paul also said,

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (1 Cor 1:10)
In any case, I mentioned the Friends only as an example of a Christian assembly that don't have a "pastor king" and don't use the word "church" to describe their meeting houses.
I know and the original Quakers seemed to be more according to the word in their doctrine and order. But...
If you prefer an assembly
It has nothing to do with a preference. There is Gods way and command for the churches *1 Cor 14:26-38) and then there is mans ways and traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect. The choice is for all to make. Which one will they abide in?.
where you get to talk for long stretches,
Never my intention, to talk for a long time. That seems a subtle rebuke to try and imply that I want to be the main talker over all and seek to take over. this is not true. But there will be some among the body who do teach and not all are teachers. But all must give place and no man should think of himself more highly than he ought to think, seeing as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith (Romans 12) and a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal (1 Cor. 12:7). If any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God, (1 Peter 4:10,11) if any man minister let him do it.
and where you get to have hearty, boisterous arguments,
the intent is not for this. But to do all things unto edifying.
then a Friends Meeting is probably not the best home for you. :)
If its not for me then its not for any christian. All believers should be able to gather in Christ and follow God's order. If not then there is a problem.

But sadly in most assemblies one man dominates over all and quenches the spirit in everyone, with his lecture format and preaching by the time clock and traditions of men that hinder body ministry. The very structure of many gatherings and the buildings they meet in fights against body ministry and the function of the church when gathered and the commandments of God (1 Cor14:26-38)They al sit facing forward seeing the back of each others heads and all eyes are drawn away to the one exalted man on a platform or so called "alter” there the one man (pastor often) takes over.
 
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LoveofTruth

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No, I'm speaking of buildings that are owned by a congregation, but which are not owned by any single family in the congregation. For example: My congregation has about 50 people in attendance on any given Sunday. That's too many people to meet in any one person's home,
I have met in our own home at the time which was a condo, and we fit about 40 people in there. Our home later could fit more. But I have been in a another home that had two meetings visit each other and about 70 people fit comfortably.

But if the home is too small for many more than that is when another home should be set up in another brothers house. The idea is to keep growing and have meetings all over, preferably one home meeting on every street in the country.

But having a place to meet that all pay for is not in itself wrong as long as they can sit around each other and see each others face and have a meal together. If the church cannot function in that place (as most assemblies all over the world today don't in there large castle like structures where the people face forward to the exalted man on a so called "altar" or platform elevated and look at the back of each others heads with no interaction allowed at all). Then it is ok if they can still function wherever they go. For example there may be three brothers in a prison who gather in a cell. That would still be where Christ is in the midst and they can still function to some degree.
 
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