Do Baptist believe they can hear God today immediately, or only through scripture?

Bobber said:

Some would say to this that the early church just hadn't coming to the place of maturity of having just one......I actually agree with you though. Such doesn't mean though that God doesn't use one's who are Pastors who function like a one man over the people. God looks at their prayer life and how they walk in love and he'll anoint and empower one.

No offence but how you present yourself or make your arguments by saying the Lord showed you about a doctrinal position. I mean how can someone express a rebuttal when God told you. As long as you're open to examine arguments and be willing to admit that perhaps God didn't tell you. Listen I have God tell me I believe many things......but I don't generally speaking put it out that way.

So how about just tell us the scriptures. Just consider if we go down this road of always claiming God told me this or that another comes along saying NO God told me the opposite and they show their scriptures. It just ends up as YES HE DID....NO HE DIDN'T......YES HE DID!


Many do question there is Apostles today. I don't. In present day they're basically establishers of works. You're making claims to be one people on a message board should have a right to see the fruit of your ministry and examine it's fruit to weigh and assess if you're credible. Surely you'd agree many can make claims and not have spiritual substance to back it up.

And I agree with all the scriptures you put down. That's not to say though that one shouldn't go to a church where there's (as we would say) a one man Pastor. No matter how you do church there can always be problems. If you do the plurality of leaders or home churching etc but the people are into strange esoteric doctrines they'd be better off in a traditional church. And some one man Pastors do have a good heart and they genuinely seek to strengthen and support their members to achieve their destiny in God.

But they still have to make their arguments from the scriptures. You did so when you put down scriptures about plurality of leadership etc. But they are in a substantial way in the scriptures.

Actually I have no problem with that at all. One shouldn't just be quick to accept something. Questions need to be asked. Where is the one getting this from . What scriptures are they using AND HOW MANY.

Sure many will. But then we pray prayers like Paul prayed in Eph 1 that the eyes of brothers will be enlightened and if we do so God can impact their spirits with revelation if they're open to it.

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Hello and God bless,

You mentioned that God may use one pastor over the assembly. But as far as we know from scripture and for many years of the church this was never the case. Also if later on a one man dominated over others abd drew men after himself this was not the order we see in scripture that Paul taught everywhere and in every church. And believers were warned about this. But again to see these things in scripture we need the Spirit to show us and have a revelation of Gods order and also from scripture.

God clearly shows that He works in every part of the body (Ephesians 4:16, 1 Cor. 14:26-38) and all can edify say they are led. Christ works effectually in every part as Paul revealed to many.

Paul warned of the one man over all and do did John abd Peter.

So if we see in history that one man came over all called “the pastor”, and he quenched the exercise of the gifts in the rest of the body and kept them silent most meetings and hinders body ministry in Christ, then we can safely reject this.

Here we see Sone of the warnings about a one man pastor king type of person over the body.

Acts 20: 29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.”

3 John 1: 9. I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.”

Romans 12: 3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7. Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8. Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.”

1 Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. …29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

Colossians 2: 8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

Acts 14: 23. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”

We can’t just see the modern confusion in the churches today and try to justify it and say we’ll God can use this and maybe this is how he did things. No, God has shown clearly his order for all the churches everywhere and God is not the authour of confusion.

The revelation I was sharing shows that there should be no one man pastor gift over the entire body of believers. We see every member ministering and plurality of elders in Gods order for all the churches.it doesn’t matter if they are gifted or wonderful believers, every part of the body is needed and in the gatherings as well. We cannot say to one part I have no need of you as Paul revealed in 1Cor. 12 .

When we try to justify todays order that is contrary to scripture and say that the church changed and now nobody can minister but one man called the pastor, that creates a confusion and error and is directly contrary to scripture.

I find that this justification of the pastor king over all is usually done because they live to have it so and they don’t want reform or change etc.

Bobber said:

Some would say to this that the early church just hadn't coming to the place of maturity of having just one......I actually agree with you though. Such doesn't mean though that God doesn't use one's who are Pastors who function like a one man over the people. God looks at their prayer life and how they walk in love and he'll anoint and empower one.

No offence but how you present yourself or make your arguments by saying the Lord showed you about a doctrinal position. I mean how can someone express a rebuttal when God told you. As long as you're open to examine arguments and be willing to admit that perhaps God didn't tell you. Listen I have God tell me I believe many things......but I don't generally speaking put it out that way.

So how about just tell us the scriptures. Just consider if we go down this road of always claiming God told me this or that another comes along saying NO God told me the opposite and they show their scriptures. It just ends up as YES HE DID....NO HE DIDN'T......YES HE DID!


Many do question there is Apostles today. I don't. In present day they're basically establishers of works. You're making claims to be one people on a message board should have a right to see the fruit of your ministry and examine it's fruit to weigh and assess if you're credible. Surely you'd agree many can make claims and not have spiritual substance to back it up.

And I agree with all the scriptures you put down. That's not to say though that one shouldn't go to a church where there's (as we would say) a one man Pastor. No matter how you do church there can always be problems. If you do the plurality of leaders or home churching etc but the people are into strange esoteric doctrines they'd be better off in a traditional church. And some one man Pastors do have a good heart and they genuinely seek to strengthen and support their members to achieve their destiny in God.

But they still have to make their arguments from the scriptures. You did so when you put down scriptures about plurality of leadership etc. But they are in a substantial way in the scriptures.

Actually I have no problem with that at all. One shouldn't just be quick to accept something. Questions need to be asked. Where is the one getting this from . What scriptures are they using AND HOW MANY.

Sure many will. But then we pray prayers like Paul prayed in Eph 1 that the eyes of brothers will be enlightened and if we do so God can impact their spirits with revelation if they're open to it.

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Hello again can you tell me how to do the quote part again where I quote a part of your words and comment,.

Thanks, I can’t remember how to do that.

Bobber said:

Some would say to this that the early church just hadn't coming to the place of maturity of having just one......I actually agree with you though. Such doesn't mean though that God doesn't use one's who are Pastors who function like a one man over the people. God looks at their prayer life and how they walk in love and he'll anoint and empower one.

No offence but how you present yourself or make your arguments by saying the Lord showed you about a doctrinal position. I mean how can someone express a rebuttal when God told you. As long as you're open to examine arguments and be willing to admit that perhaps God didn't tell you. Listen I have God tell me I believe many things......but I don't generally speaking put it out that way.

So how about just tell us the scriptures. Just consider if we go down this road of always claiming God told me this or that another comes along saying NO God told me the opposite and they show their scriptures. It just ends up as YES HE DID....NO HE DIDN'T......YES HE DID!


Many do question there is Apostles today. I don't. In present day they're basically establishers of works. You're making claims to be one people on a message board should have a right to see the fruit of your ministry and examine it's fruit to weigh and assess if you're credible. Surely you'd agree many can make claims and not have spiritual substance to back it up.

And I agree with all the scriptures you put down. That's not to say though that one shouldn't go to a church where there's (as we would say) a one man Pastor. No matter how you do church there can always be problems. If you do the plurality of leaders or home churching etc but the people are into strange esoteric doctrines they'd be better off in a traditional church. And some one man Pastors do have a good heart and they genuinely seek to strengthen and support their members to achieve their destiny in God.

But they still have to make their arguments from the scriptures. You did so when you put down scriptures about plurality of leadership etc. But they are in a substantial way in the scriptures.

Actually I have no problem with that at all. One shouldn't just be quick to accept something. Questions need to be asked. Where is the one getting this from . What scriptures are they using AND HOW MANY.

Sure many will. But then we pray prayers like Paul prayed in Eph 1 that the eyes of brothers will be enlightened and if we do so God can impact their spirits with revelation if they're open to it.

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You said,

“Many do question there is Apostles today. I don't. In present day they're basically establishers of works. You're making claims to be one people on a message board should have a right to see the fruit of your ministry and examine it's fruit to weigh and assess if you're credible. Surely you'd agree many can make claims and not have spiritual substance to back it up.”

My response,

Those people who question apostleship today are clearly wrong by scripture it is not worth mentioning them unless you agreed with them or doubted.

Paul Silvanus snd Timotheus and Barnabas are just a partial example of apostles after the resurrection

And it’s interesting that if a person says they have a certain gift like apostle or prophet or teacher evangelist or pastor. The only ones who get questioned are the apostles and prophets.

We had about six home meetings and in our home alone we had over four hundred people come through our house we had meetings for about 18 years in that one home. And a few of the home meetings are still going today. We didn’t have four hundred people at once, usually the meetings were from 10-35 people. But they are wonderful meetings full of joy revelation teaching a full meal together prayer gifts and wonder and salvation.

But we did street ministry and preaching as well. Part of my work even then was itinerant. I was led all over the place and to many church gatherings as well to share the things God gave me to share. I was sent to many places.

Bobber said:

Some would say to this that the early church just hadn't coming to the place of maturity of having just one......I actually agree with you though. Such doesn't mean though that God doesn't use one's who are Pastors who function like a one man over the people. God looks at their prayer life and how they walk in love and he'll anoint and empower one.

No offence but how you present yourself or make your arguments by saying the Lord showed you about a doctrinal position. I mean how can someone express a rebuttal when God told you. As long as you're open to examine arguments and be willing to admit that perhaps God didn't tell you. Listen I have God tell me I believe many things......but I don't generally speaking put it out that way.

So how about just tell us the scriptures. Just consider if we go down this road of always claiming God told me this or that another comes along saying NO God told me the opposite and they show their scriptures. It just ends up as YES HE DID....NO HE DIDN'T......YES HE DID!


Many do question there is Apostles today. I don't. In present day they're basically establishers of works. You're making claims to be one people on a message board should have a right to see the fruit of your ministry and examine it's fruit to weigh and assess if you're credible. Surely you'd agree many can make claims and not have spiritual substance to back it up.

And I agree with all the scriptures you put down. That's not to say though that one shouldn't go to a church where there's (as we would say) a one man Pastor. No matter how you do church there can always be problems. If you do the plurality of leaders or home churching etc but the people are into strange esoteric doctrines they'd be better off in a traditional church. And some one man Pastors do have a good heart and they genuinely seek to strengthen and support their members to achieve their destiny in God.

But they still have to make their arguments from the scriptures. You did so when you put down scriptures about plurality of leadership etc. But they are in a substantial way in the scriptures.

Actually I have no problem with that at all. One shouldn't just be quick to accept something. Questions need to be asked. Where is the one getting this from . What scriptures are they using AND HOW MANY.

Sure many will. But then we pray prayers like Paul prayed in Eph 1 that the eyes of brothers will be enlightened and if we do so God can impact their spirits with revelation if they're open to it.

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THE PASTOR KING

The Exalted Pastor over all

As shocking as this may seem, there is not one verse in the New Testament that speaks of a man over all the church called, “The Pastor”, who does most of the ministry, gets a regular salary and who acts as the head of the church. Rather, in the New Testament, we see the whole church ministering to one another in Christ who works effectually in all believers (Eph 4:11-16 , 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11)and we read of elders (plural) in every church(singular) who watch over and feed others spiritually (Acts 14:23, James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1,2). They are not to Lord over others and control them in a supreme authority but are to be examples.

Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others (Matthew 20:25-27), and said “it shall not be so among you”.

Yet in many gatherings today, this person called “The Pastor”, is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform behind a “pulpit”. He is the one who dominates and has preeminence over all others and does most of the speaking week after week. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure unbiblically called “the church” with lower ranked servants under him. Sometimes he has a sign outside with his name on it. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend”, “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”. Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church (3 John 9,10, 2 Cor 11:12,13,20, Acts 20:29-31, Col 2:8, Job 32:31,32) and Jesus said “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8,10).

Almost all of the activities in the assembly today are controlled by the Pastor and no one is permitted to speak or minister unless he allows it. There is rarely opportunity for anyone else to minister as Christ leads, for they are not on the man made programs in man’s order. Many are unaware of their freedoms in the body of Christ and even if they were, they would be afraid to speak as God leads them, fearing the disapproval and rebuke of the pastor. Many dangerously look to this one man alone for all their spiritual guidance in the assembly, rather than wait on God and to be led by the Spirit in mutual edification of one another in God’s order.

The Modern Pastoral Role is Unbiblical

The position that the modern Pastor holds today is unbiblical. It fights against the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rom. 12:1), the mutual edification of one another in the body of Christ as He leads, (1 Cor. 14:26-38, 1 Cor 12:7, 1 Peter 4:10, 11, Col. 3:15,16, Eph. 4:16) and it hinders Gods direct leading and working in all believers in the church (Heb. 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27, Eph 4:16,21, Col 3:15,16). The role of the modern Pastor over all often quenches the spirt in the rest of the body and hinders the very function and growth of the church.

This modern role of “The Pastor” today, sets him up to reign as a king (or Lord) over the body of Christ and exalts him (2 Cor. 11:12,20, Rom 12:3-5). His position as head of the church can usurp the headship of Christ in the meetings (Col 2:8, 19) and bind up the saints in the traditions and commandments of men that turn from the truth and fight against the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor 14:26-38, Col 2:8,19, Titus 1:14).

Paul warned us of such serious things and said, “Beware, lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ” (Col. 2:8). The word ”spoil” implies, leading believers away and robbing them of their goods. The one modern pastor tradition does this in part and makes the word of God of no effect by this role (Mark 7:13).These controlling men don’t allow believers to edify one another in the gatherings as they are commanded to do in scripture and hinder them from being good stewards of their gifts from God (1 Cor 14:26,30,37, 38 1 Peter 4:10,11). But If any man reject God’s commands to do so they are ignorant and should not be listened to and withdrawn from (1 Cor 14:26,30,37, 2 Thess. 3:6).

Bobber said:

Some would say to this that the early church just hadn't coming to the place of maturity of having just one......I actually agree with you though. Such doesn't mean though that God doesn't use one's who are Pastors who function like a one man over the people. God looks at their prayer life and how they walk in love and he'll anoint and empower one.

No offence but how you present yourself or make your arguments by saying the Lord showed you about a doctrinal position. I mean how can someone express a rebuttal when God told you. As long as you're open to examine arguments and be willing to admit that perhaps God didn't tell you. Listen I have God tell me I believe many things......but I don't generally speaking put it out that way.

So how about just tell us the scriptures. Just consider if we go down this road of always claiming God told me this or that another comes along saying NO God told me the opposite and they show their scriptures. It just ends up as YES HE DID....NO HE DIDN'T......YES HE DID!


Many do question there is Apostles today. I don't. In present day they're basically establishers of works. You're making claims to be one people on a message board should have a right to see the fruit of your ministry and examine it's fruit to weigh and assess if you're credible. Surely you'd agree many can make claims and not have spiritual substance to back it up.

And I agree with all the scriptures you put down. That's not to say though that one shouldn't go to a church where there's (as we would say) a one man Pastor. No matter how you do church there can always be problems. If you do the plurality of leaders or home churching etc but the people are into strange esoteric doctrines they'd be better off in a traditional church. And some one man Pastors do have a good heart and they genuinely seek to strengthen and support their members to achieve their destiny in God.

But they still have to make their arguments from the scriptures. You did so when you put down scriptures about plurality of leadership etc. But they are in a substantial way in the scriptures.

Actually I have no problem with that at all. One shouldn't just be quick to accept something. Questions need to be asked. Where is the one getting this from . What scriptures are they using AND HOW MANY.

Sure many will. But then we pray prayers like Paul prayed in Eph 1 that the eyes of brothers will be enlightened and if we do so God can impact their spirits with revelation if they're open to it.

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You may be interested to read this post I made look for it in my threads

The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role​

Archie the Preacher said:

Not all all. Your understand of the Bible and my comments is less than coherent.

No revelation or inspirations such as mentioned in 1st Corinthians 14 refutes, contradicts or otherwise supersedes ANYTHING already given. Such a revelation may have specific information for an individual or an individual group, but is nothing to be added to the extant message of God already in the Bible.

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When men of God spoke by revelation or prophecy or in preaching by the spirit etc. They were not writing all that was said down. We only have certain things written in scripture. Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all and he preached and taught in the spirit all over with many words from God, but we don’t have those words written down. In fact Jesus said soo much that we don’t have written down and everything he said was true and equal to all scripture.

John 21: 25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”

And are any trying to say that all the other apostles of the Lord never spoke by the spirit or shared a prophecy or revelation from God? Because we don’t have any of their words written down?

No, but the things we have written down in scripture are very specific for the saints and those who read them.

OzSpen said:

The apokalupsis (revelation) as a gift of the Spirit is not some new understanding of Scripture.

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Scripture can be written and not understood by men unless God reveals it to them. The Spirit reveals all things

1 Corinthians 2: 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God…. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”

and sone scriptures are sealed up till the end times.

Daniel 12: 4. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Archie the Preacher said:

Both.

God does NOT speak to anyone in the manner of the prophets of 'those days' directing 'new' information. The basic and standard instructions are in place, in scripture.

God does help me find my keys at times. And He encourages me when I need it. Not to mention corrects me when I'm getting out of line. Typically it is the still, small voice in my head. On one occasion it was more of a loudspeaker in my skull.

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While we can agree that there are many false prophets in these days and many who claim to speak things God never gave them to speak, that does not mean that there not true prophets and apostles today, nowhere in the New Testament scriptures do we see any verse that says the gifts of the spirit and apostles and prophets have ceased for today. No, not one verse.

If some think there is a verse or verses that show this I would like to hear them. Yes, I am familiar with the verses some try to use in Corinthians and Hebrews etc. But these do not say the gifts have ceased for today, as can be shown.