Why don't protestants make the sign of the Cross?

seeking.IAM · Jun 18, 2024

Valletta said:
With most Protestants I can have a productive discussion about Bible passages, with fundamentalists it's generally a lecture about what Catholics supposedly do wrong.

I find it interesting, curious, and more than a wee bit illogical when a group forms a few thousand years into Christian history to enlighten Christendom that they have been doing it wrong all that time, and that only they have the truth which can now be revealed.

Cis.jd · Jun 18, 2024

Valletta said:
With fundamentalists it seems like their take on a Bible passage is so often not the clear meaning of the passage. As we've spoken about, vain repetition is much different than repetition, but, for example, repetition alone is what they have latched on to no matter what the Bible says. So too fundamentalists don't seem to think much of what the early Christians thought. With most Protestants I can have a productive discussion about Bible passages, with fundamentalists it's generally a lecture about what Catholics supposedly do wrong.

Agreed. There are protestant denominations that I do have high regards for, and can respect any form of different views on this. I would say the Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Methodists i can actually respect on a theological level. The protestants that came from the "restoration" age (or as you put it, fundamentalists) are the ones that I seriously can butt heads with. I do see them as the root of all the christian cults. It's all "everyone else before us was wrong until we showed up".

Valletta · Jun 18, 2024

seeking.IAM said:
I find it interesting, curious, and more than a wee bit illogical when a group forms a few thousand years into Christian history to enlighten Christendom that they have been doing it wrong all that time, and that only they have the truth which can now be revealed.

They strive for the pure Christian religion, which is wonderful and I hope all Christians do, but there is indeed a disconnect from Christian history, particularly the early centuries of Christianity.

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Praying a lot isn't the issue.
it's that the repetitions turn prayer from a conversation with God, into just repeating things you memorized.

as to the angels, they're not in the image of God, birds have repetitive calls as well, and God designed them to do that, but they are not the image of God.

So human beings shouldn't say "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come"?

Also, I don't think you realize just how judgmental and legalistic it sounds when you accuse people of "just repeating things you memorized". You're telling us our prayers are invalid, that our conversations with God are inferior to yours.

When I pray, whether it is a spontaneous prayer or a set prayer, it's prayer. I'm talking to my God and King.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2024

This arbitrary decision that songs can be repeated because they are songs, but prayers can't is silly.

But I suppose it means that when I sing/chant the Our Father or Gloria Patri it's okay now. I just better never say them without melodic intonation.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
So human beings shouldn't say "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come"?

Also, I don't think you realize just how judgmental and legalistic it sounds when you accuse people of "just repeating things you memorized". You're telling us our prayers are invalid, that our conversations with God are inferior to yours.

When I pray, whether it is a spontaneous prayer or a set prayer, it's prayer. I'm talking to my God and King.

-CryptoLutheran

Someone calls you on the phone
you answer
but what you hear is a robot doing a prerecorded script.

...
I'll leave you to complete the analogy.

ViaCrucis · Jun 20, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Someone calls you on the phone
you answer
but what you hear is a robot doing a prerecorded script.

...
I'll leave you to complete the analogy.

Someone calls you on the phone
you answer
but what you hear is a group of tone deaf people singing Amazing Grace for the 10 millionth time.

I like that you decided to double down on your judgmentalism though. Real fun character trait.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc · Jun 20, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
Someone calls you on the phone
you answer
but what you hear is a group of tone deaf people singing Amazing Grace for the 10 millionth time.

I like that you decided to double down on your judgmentalism though. Real fun character trait.

-CryptoLutheran

Songs are different. I've stressed this over and over. Songs aren't a conversation, songs are songs. People like hearing songs even a song they've heard many times if it's a song they like.
People don't like being hit with a prerecorded or rehearsed script.

and it's not about my prayers vs your prayers, but, what kind of conversation are you intending to have with a rehearsed script?
While Jesus did pray for the same thing multiple times at Gethsemane, because He had a need and did not receive an answer the first couple times, He did not pray the same prayer every single time He prayed, did He?

as for Holy Holy Holy, humans don't repeat that infinitely in scripture, it is creatures who were created to do that thing specifically that are doing it. That was not why we were created. Genesis 1 and 2 describe why we were created.

and no this isn't my ego, I never said I pray properly, in fact I know I don't.

Why?
Because scripture says I don't.
Romans 8

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

anyway, I want to be out of this thread since this is a tangent. So please let it rest. But consider what I said.

Valletta · Jun 21, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Songs are different. I've stressed this over and over. Songs aren't a conversation, songs are songs. People like hearing songs even a song they've heard many times if it's a song they like.
People don't like being hit with a prerecorded or rehearsed script.

The Psalms are prayers, and they can be sung or recited.

Cis.jd · Jun 21, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Songs are different. I've stressed this over and over. Songs aren't a conversation, songs are songs. People like hearing songs even a song they've heard many times if it's a song they like.
People don't like being hit with a prerecorded or rehearsed script.

and it's not about my prayers vs your prayers, but, what kind of conversation are you intending to have with a rehearsed script?
While Jesus did pray for the same thing multiple times at Gethsemane, because He had a need and did not receive an answer the first couple times, He did not pray the same prayer every single time He prayed, did He?

as for Holy Holy Holy, humans don't repeat that infinitely in scripture, it is creatures who were created to do that thing specifically that are doing it. That was not why we were created. Genesis 1 and 2 describe why we were created.

and no this isn't my ego, I never said I pray properly, in fact I know I don't.

Why?
Because scripture says I don't.
Romans 8

anyway, I want to be out of this thread since this is a tangent. So please let it rest. But consider what I said.

ah. so if we put background music in the hail mary's, then it's fine?
prayers can be sung. Also, the rosary isn't having a conversation with the Lord, it's reflecting on christ's life.
God looks at the heart of the person during prayer, so even if other christians are reading or reciting something out loud, the intent matters.
In weddings, husband and wives read off their vows. In announcements, and testimonials, people read off and recite what they wrote. Reciting something written doesn't mean it is insincere.
You are showing nothing but ego because you have massive double standards and trying to craft every excuse you can muster.

ViaCrucis · Jun 21, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Songs are different.

You can say that all you want.

But if your argument is that what we sing is not in conversation with God, then your theology of worship is severely impoverished.

The entire Divine Liturgy is a conversation. God speaks to us, and we respond. That's what the Liturgy is, that's what Christian worship is. This is our RELATIONSHIP with God. God speaks to us, we speak to God, we confess together as God's people and children, we delight in Christ our Lord who has reconciled us to the Father, and we share in the life of God through the Holy Spirit which we have received in Christ God's Son, in which we are sons and daughters of God--and we are here together, with the holy angels and the entire host of heaven in shared communion to declare the praises of our God, to declare thanksgiving to our God, and to share in, delight in, and enjoy God--"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". As we join with the heavens, as heaven and earth meet together, and God is in our midst--all in anticipation and echoing the future Glory of when that Good Day comes and God makes all things new, new heavens and new earth, and God will be all in all. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Hallelujah!

-CryptoLutheran

Cis.jd · Jun 22, 2024

seeking.IAM said:
I find it interesting, curious, and more than a wee bit illogical when a group forms a few thousand years into Christian history to enlighten Christendom that they have been doing it wrong all that time, and that only they have the truth which can now be revealed.

Yup. That was one of the characteristics of the cults such as the JW's, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Mormons, and other unitarian establishments. Basically, everyone before them is wrong until they showed up. I've seen on Threads various protestants criticizing Lutherans and Anglicans for still being "catholic-rooted" as an explanation as to why they aren't correct in their views. Now, the cults I mentioned consider those protestants to be "catholic-rooted" because of believing in the divinity of Christ and God being trinity. I provided the links to their websites on this.

MarkRohfrietsch · Jul 7, 2024

Christians fighting over the sign of the Holy Cross, Sung Prayers, Liturgical worship as mandated in Scripture.

Self proclaimed Christians, in a world full of non Christians. Trying to convert believers to believe better while leaving non believers without the Gospel, without the Grace of God, lost and condemned.

We can do better, we need to do better.

The Liturgist · Jul 8, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Christians fighting over the sign of the Holy Cross, Sung Prayers, Liturgical worship as mandated in Scripture.

Self proclaimed Christians, in a world full of non Christians. Trying to convert believers to believe better while leaving non believers without the Gospel, without the Grace of God, lost and condemned.

We can do better, we need to do better.

Amen to that. It is truly shocking that anyone would be opposed to such things as liturgical worship and would waste time trying to “convert” existing Christians to whatever while there are so many adherents of atheism, agnosticism, spiritualism and other deadly superstitions which are destroying our society.

The Liturgist · Jul 8, 2024

Cis.jd said:
Yup. That was one of the characteristics of the cults such as the JW's, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Mormons, and other unitarian establishments. Basically, everyone before them is wrong until they showed up. I've seen on Threads various protestants criticizing Lutherans and Anglicans for still being "catholic-rooted" as an explanation as to why they aren't correct in their views. Now, the cults I mentioned consider those protestants to be "catholic-rooted" because of believing in the divinity of Christ and God being trinity. I provided the links to their websites on this.

Crackerjack point, as they used to say. The first thing that any cult seems to want to discard is the connected doctrinal system of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of the Word as documented by St. Athanasius and the Cappadocian Fathers. Probably because the idea that God loves us so much so as to become Incarnate for our salvation is poisonous to any cult.

ViaCrucis said:
You can say that all you want.

But if your argument is that what we sing is not in conversation with God, then your theology of worship is severely impoverished.

The entire Divine Liturgy is a conversation. God speaks to us, and we respond. That's what the Liturgy is, that's what Christian worship is. This is our RELATIONSHIP with God. God speaks to us, we speak to God, we confess together as God's people and children, we delight in Christ our Lord who has reconciled us to the Father, and we share in the life of God through the Holy Spirit which we have received in Christ God's Son, in which we are sons and daughters of God--and we are here together, with the holy angels and the entire host of heaven in shared communion to declare the praises of our God, to declare thanksgiving to our God, and to share in, delight in, and enjoy God--"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". As we join with the heavens, as heaven and earth meet together, and God is in our midst--all in anticipation and echoing the future Glory of when that Good Day comes and God makes all things new, new heavens and new earth, and God will be all in all. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Hallelujah!

-CryptoLutheran

This is beautifully written, thank you for that.

The Liturgist · Jul 8, 2024

seeking.IAM said:
I find it interesting, curious, and more than a wee bit illogical when a group forms a few thousand years into Christian history to enlighten Christendom that they have been doing it wrong all that time, and that only they have the truth which can now be revealed.

Indeed, I would say this is the foundational conceit of the Restorationist movement, and of most cults as well regardless of their origin. And it just strikes me as so absurd to expect someone to believe that, particularly when the Gospel According to Matthew literally says that for such a thing to happen is impossible (indeed it is for this reason that Landmark Baptists and a few other unusual denominations have constructed their own ahistorical alternative narrative of the Early Church).

Cis.jd · Jul 9, 2024

I think the best way to some up my point in this whole thread is that without history, without keeping consistent with the traditions passed down, people can just invent their own christianity.

The Liturgist · Jul 10, 2024

Cis.jd said:
I think the best way to some up my point in this whole thread is that without history, without keeping consistent with the traditions passed down, people can just invent their own christianity.

Amen to that.

Sunflower39 · Jul 16, 2024

I do. It’s the norm to make the sign of the cross in my Anglican Church.

Why don't protestants make the sign of the Cross?

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