Pope Francis to Lutherans: ‘Jesus Christ is the heart of ecumenism’

Michie said:

Um…. Yeah Jim. Whatever gets you through your day.

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JimR-OCDS said:

Pope Benedict XVI, through his own admission, did not know how inflammatory his words could be taken until four nuns were killed by radical Muslims after his inflammatory speech where he quoted a person from the 14 century who said that there was nothing but evil in Islam.

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JimR-OCDS said:

Don't get me wrong, Pope Benedict XVI had a brilliant mind and was intellectually spot on. He was just not good on the world
stage. People nicknamed him "the Rottweiler," back when he was head of the CFD under St Pope John Paul II.

Fact is, he himself was shocked when Pope John Paul II asked him to head the CFD. In Vatican II, he was progressive whereas
Pope John Paul II was conservative. and the two debated each other often. Pope John Paul II wanted someone who was
brilliant like Cardinal Ratzinger, who would check his own thinking of issues.

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JimR-OCDS said:

It doesn't matter what then Pope Benedict XVI's lecture was about. It was true, but would not be received well in
today's environment. The ignorance on his part was how the Islamic world would handle what he said in the lecture.
He himself admitted that he did not know world politics as he should have and he should've had handlers read
what he was going to say before he said or wrote it. He wasn't responsible for the death of nuns directly, the killers
were. However, he as Pope should have known how the world would treat what he said, and that there are
Christians living in parts of the Islamic world where his words can have dangerous consequences for
them. This was proven by during his papacy and may be the main reason for his resignation.

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The Liturgist said:

That’s my understanding. Note that I was never connected with them; I have not even been to Canada, but they are frequently confused with the also very liberal United Church of Christ, formed by the merger of most of the Congregationalists with the United Reformed church (the Calvinist branch of the emigres from Prussia, whose Lutheran counterparts are now the LCMS, polar opposites, as pointed out in 2012 by the LCMS president), which nonetheless still has, or at least had about 15 years ago a confessional movement, in the form of a dwindling group of conservative parishes and pastors called “Faithful and Welcoming”, but the United Church of Canada that was formed in the 1920s as a result of a fantastically ill-advised merger of the Methodists, Congregationalists and many but not all of the Presbyterian churches in Canada, not unlike the origin of the Uniting Church in Australia, is much more liberal than even the United Church of Christ. But the ELCIC is actually worse, according to the latest information I have. This is not too shocking considering that the ELCA has herchurch, “Ebeneezer Lutheran Church” in San Francisco, with its “Mother Goddess Rosaries” and openly pagan worship rites. Why is there a pagan temple in an ostensibly Lutheran denomination? I couldn’t tell you, but that’s the state of things.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

While I have not seen it, my Pastor told me that the newest hymnal of the ELCA/ELCIC has a hymn to the Goddess:

While maybe not in your local parish, this is becoming more wide-spread as is universalism; that all religions are simply a different manifestation of god (lower case intentional) and therefore just as valid and worthy of fellowship with Christianity.

I could only stand to watch a few minutes, it caused me to be very uncharitable in my thoughts and verged on giving me Teret's syndrome.

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chevyontheriver said:

How they have fallen ....

And what 'ecumenical partners' they are.

I was in the bookstore of Luther Northwestern Theological Seminary in St. Paul MN several years back and I heard some of the seminarians totally dissing Catholic seminarians, not for the usual things, but because they were not woke enough. The St. Paul Seminary, also in St. Paul MN, had undergone a long recovery back into orthodoxy, and that wasn't sitting well with the Lutheran Seminarians, where their seminary had undergone a long jump off a cliff. Oh, we had such high hopes back in the day for Lutherans and Catholics together. It just turned out to be the wrong Lutherans and the Catholics weren't too solid either.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

I'm sure you are familiar with the joint agreement? The one that both the CC and the ELCIC almost immediately backed away from?

This was too soon. Both sides presumed too much; both sides were going for a "hip" photo-op, and in doing so, purposefully discounted serious differences that had been identified about 450 years before.

Revisionists trying to rewrite history maybe?

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

When truth is not received well, it is is neither the fault of the "truth" nor the one who delivers that "truth" Many Christians had died at the hands of those of other faiths simply for confessing their "true" faith.

The Church calls such Christians "Martyrs"; those that the Church knows, it commemorates and celebrates their faithful deaths; the ones that are not known, on All Saints Day.

Posts like this not only dishonor your former Pope but cheapen the martyrdoms of these nuns.

Blaming a truthful Christian for the acts of non Christians against Christians is absurd.

Maybe if more heard the truth there would be a much stronger Church and less martyrdoms going on throughout the world.

As Michie said; please stay on topic.

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JimR-OCDS said:

That's what I posted earlier; the fault lies with the murderers.

However, Pope's like presidents need to be aware of how the world listens to what they say.

Quoting a 14 century text which was against Islam, would inflame Muslims in todays world.
Doesn't matter if what Pope Benedict said was true, the timing in saying it was bad.

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chevyontheriver said:

Not sure I knew about it. There have been so many attempts at agreements on various levels. Which one are you referring to?

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JimR-OCDS said:

Pope Benedict XVI, through his own admission, did not know how inflammatory his words could be taken until four nuns were killed by radical Muslims after his inflammatory speech where he quoted a person from the 14 century who said that there was nothing but evil in Islam.

Don't get me wrong, Pope Benedict XVI had a brilliant mind and was intellectually spot on. He was just not good on the world
stage. People nicknamed him "the Rottweiler," back when he was head of the CFD under St Pope John Paul II.

Fact is, he himself was shocked when Pope John Paul II asked him to head the CFD. In Vatican II, he was progressive whereas
Pope John Paul II was conservative. and the two debated each other often. Pope John Paul II wanted someone who was
brilliant like Cardinal Ratzinger, who would check his own thinking of issues.

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FaithT said:

Pope Benedict was the type of man who would’ve scared and intimidated me if I had to deal with him in person.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

Here it is 1999; the ELCA and the federation were already worlds apart; now, it is like they are in a different dimension that Christianity. Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ)

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FaithT said:

Pope Benedict was the type of man who would’ve scared and intimidated me if I had to deal with him in person.

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Michie said:

I know I would have. Here is the “Rottweiler” now.

View attachment 351587

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chevyontheriver said:

He was said to be shy and polite and kind, but was made out by some people to be a nasty Rottweiler. I think you would have been delighted to meet him.

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