Eternal punishment vs eternal life

tonychanyt · Jun 29, 2024

contratodo said:
The sinners in Zion are afraid,
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever:
and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-11

There shall be a resurrection of the dead, of both the just and the unjust.
Acts 24:15

some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to hades, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgement....
to whom the gloom of darkness is reserved forever.
2 Peter 2:4,17

So, does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2024

brakelite said:
The scripture doesn't stipulate continuing action. It says eternal punishment. Not eternal punishing.

And it says eternal life NOT eternal living.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2024

tonychanyt said:
So, does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation,
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever:
and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-11

Jipsah · Jun 29, 2024

Der Alte said:
And it says eternal life NOT eternal living.

So it's Good Eternal Life vs Bad Eternal Life. Everybody lives forever no matter what.

fhansen · Jul 2, 2024

tonychanyt said:
New International Version, Matthew 25:

Do these two uses of "eternal" carry the same meaning? If yes, what does it mean?

They are the same Greek word in the same sentence, so I think they carry the same meaning.

Eternal life is immortal life.

The question is this: What is eternal punishment?

The term eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life. The punishment is eternal death, i.e., annihilation or the absence of life, Revelation 20:

Conscious punishment or suffering over an infinite period of existence makes little physical sense. To be conscious, you need a life or a breadth from God (Genesis 2:7). In other words, conscious torment over an infinite time is a form of eternal 'life'.

My paraphrase:

Paul expressed a similar concept in 2 Thessalonians 1:

Strong's Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — 4 Occurrences

BDAG:
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring, … ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9

Pulpit Commentary:

There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

See also Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period?.

Maybe, but we're already "born dead" in a sense, needing to be born again. Eternal life has to do with existence with God while eternal death has to do with existence apart from Him.

Jipsah · Jul 2, 2024

fhansen said:
Maybe, but we're already "born dead" in a sense, needing to be born again. Eternal life has to do with existence with God while eternal death has to do with existence apart from Him.

Either one is eternal life, thouigh, innit? Eternal and Good, or eternal and Bad. St. Paul, however, tells us that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life under torture. Claiming that "death" really means a very bad eternal life are simply asiging a "meaning" that suits their doctrinal presuppositions. The simple reading is that death means death whether one's doctrine agrees with that or not.

fhansen · Jul 2, 2024

Jipsah said:
Either one is eternal life, thouigh, innit? Eternal and Good, or eternal and Bad. St. Paul, however, tells us that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life under torture. Claiming that "death" really means a very bad eternal life are simply asiging a "meaning" that suits their doctrinal presuppositions. The simple reading is that death means death whether one's doctrine agrees with that or not.

Again "life" in the bible is no life at all unless life with God while death is something already experienced by fallen man, dead in his alienation from God, dead in his trespasses and sin.

Jipsah · Jul 3, 2024

fhansen said:
Again "life" in the bible is no life at all unless life with God while death is something already experienced by fallen man, dead in his alienation from God, dead in his trespasses and sin.

So we just redefine the words to suit the doctrine. That's good old fashioned Amurkan Protestantism right there!

fhansen · Jul 3, 2024

Jipsah said:
So we just redefine the words to suit the doctrine. That's good old fashioned Amurkan Protestantism right there!

The bible tells us that the living are actually dead-and ancient teachings agree.

Jipsah · Jul 3, 2024

fhansen said:
The bible tells us that the living are actually dead-and ancient teachings agree.

So Lazarus wasn't really dead as in deceased, he was just figuratively unalive.

JulieB67 · Jul 5, 2024

tonychanyt said:
There is some justification that eternal punishment is permanent death or annihilation of the soul.

Yes, I think that's why it's called the second death.

JulieB67 · Jul 14, 2024

Jipsah said:
Claiming that "death" really means a very bad eternal life are simply asiging a "meaning" that suits their doctrinal presuppositions. The simple reading is that death means death whether one's doctrine agrees with that or not.

Yes and just adding to this conversation, this is what always gets me. People have no answer to why it's called death/second death and instead have to redefine the word "death" when that's not what the meaning is and it's not what the scripture states. They have to redefine -death, perish and destroy and if there's any gray area as in the word ruin they will jump on that as well. But the very first meaning in the Greek is to destroy "fully". Christ himself calling the lake of fire the second death is a 2nd witness to his very own teachings in Matthew 10:28 which leaves us completely clear on what his meaning is. The wages of sin is death period and yet people somehow don't believe that's what it means.

tonychanyt · Jul 14, 2024

JulieB67 said:
People have no answer to why it's called death/second death and instead have to redefine the word "death"

Revelation 20:

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Strong's Greek: 2288. θάνατος (thanatos) — 120 Occurrences

G2288 was frequent and polysemantic. BDAG:
① the termination of physical life, death
② death viewed transcendently in contrast to a living relationship with God
ⓐ of spiritual death
ⓑ eternal death
③ a particular manner of death, fatal illness, pestilence and the like,

BurningBush84 · Jul 22, 2024

There are so many different denominations of Christianity today. They are different because they disagree on so many passages therefore they separate and create different denominations/doctrines...... BUT the overwhelming majority of them all AGREE and believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) .

tonychanyt · Jul 22, 2024

Thanks for sharing.

BurningBush84 said:
the overwhelming majority of them all AGREE and believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) .

reference?

BurningBush84 · Jul 22, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Thanks for sharing.

reference?

It's common knowledge. I'm not going to bother with reference's . I know JW's and SDA don't believe in ECT .

tonychanyt · Jul 22, 2024

BurningBush84 said:
It's common knowledge. I'm not going to bother with reference's . I know JW's and SDA don't believe in ECT .

I prefer to debate people who can support their claims with references.

Jipsah · Jul 23, 2024

BurningBush84 said:
BUT the overwhelming majority of them all AGREE and believe in ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) .

So vox populi, vox dei. The voice of the peop[le is the Voice of God. The truth established by popular vote. . We can tell what the truth is from day to day by reading the Trafalgar polls. Or maybe we can get the Neilsen ratings people to give us popularity rating on different doctrines to see which ones we ought to keep and which ones we should discard.

And surely the mere words written in the Bible aren't suffient to know the Truth. We have to know what most people have decided those words really mean..

Jipsah · Jul 23, 2024

BurningBush84 said:
It's common knowledge. I'm not going to bother with reference's . I know JW's and SDA don't believe in ECT .

You'll undoubtedly take comfort in knowing that al Quran unquestionably and graphically teaches eternal torment, without any ambiguous wording at all.

Der Alte · Jul 27, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Revelation 20:

Strong's Greek: 2288. θάνατος (thanatos) — 120 Occurrences

G2288 was frequent and polysemantic. BDAG:
① the termination of physical life, death
② death viewed transcendently in contrast to a living relationship with God
ⓐ of spiritual death
ⓑ eternal death
③ a particular manner of death, fatal illness, pestilence and the like,

Yes but...death is the moment in time cessation of life, it has no physical presence it cannot literally be thrown anywhere. However there is a scriptural response which does not entail mixing of literal and figurative., in one verse
Revelation 6:8
(8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:14
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.

Eternal punishment vs eternal life

24/7 Christian

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Blood Drinker

Oldbie

Blood Drinker

Oldbie

Blood Drinker

Oldbie

Blood Drinker

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

24/7 Christian

Well-Known Member

24/7 Christian

Well-Known Member

24/7 Christian

Blood Drinker

Blood Drinker

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Similar threads