Salvation is Faith Alone in Christ Alone Plus Nothing Minus Nothing Acts 13:39, Romans 3:19-28

hedrick said:

This creates a problem. Historically, people who claimed to believe we are saved only by faith but thought certain things are unacceptable or required said that if you don't have those things, your faith isn't real. I think if you really want to say that salvation is purely by faith you can't talk about genuine and non-genuine faith, or use works to discriminate between them.

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This is what some people call backloading works.

Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”

This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtil. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.

Guojing said:

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.

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I certainly hope faith makes a difference to our lives. But when we start looking at works as proof of faith, then we get back into "if you don't do this, your faith isn't real," which ends up rejecting justification by faith.

But the real question is: is justification by faith alone true. If so, we have to be willing to accept people as possibly saved (we can never really know) who do things that we think are unacceptable.

I've been involved in Christian forums since before the Internet existed. I moderated the Christian group on Usenet. For the first couple of decades, all the Protestants would say they believe in justification by faith alone, and that we have to trust the Holy Spirit to help justified people live as Christians. That argument is now rare. My theory is that the new ideologized Christianity wants to be able to say that people who do or don't do certain things aren't saved, and that this has basically killed justification by faith as I originally saw it.

Bu there's also a question of what faith means. The Greek word has a range of meanings. Matthew Bates has a book with the title "Salvation by Allegiance Alone." i think allegiance is a good translation. It seems to me that both Paul and Jesus saw people as having a primary orientation either for God or against him. Jesus called it being a follower. Paul called it faith. I think it's this allegiance that makes one a Christian.

Salvation is more complex, because of the question about whether anyone without an explicit faith in Christ is damned. I don't think jesus said that, and Paul seems to refuse to judge outsiders. I do believe there are people who are enemies of the Gospel, but I'm not so convinced that this includes all non-Christians. So I'm inclined to accept allegiance to the Word as including people who are committed to truth and doing the right thing without realizing that the Word is Christ. (This would be C. S. Lewis' view.)

I'm actually more concerned about Christians who are committed to Christ, but have such a warped view of what he wants that they do more damage than atheists. I'm inclined to think that God will still save them, even though as 1 Cor 3:12 says, not much will be left of their lives.

hedrick said:

This creates a problem. Historically, people who claimed to believe we are saved only by faith but thought certain things are unacceptable or required said that if you don't have those things, your faith isn't real. I think if you really want to say that salvation is purely by faith you can't talk about genuine and non-genuine faith, or use works to discriminate between them.

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Thankfully God is the heart knower. He knows whose faith is sincere or who is "just adding works" because they think it will get them to Heaven.
And I am just basically reiterating what James said. And I still believe this comes down to if someone has truly repented. If someone has- naturally that someone going to produce good fruit vs bad fruit because they are thinking differently. Will they always? Of course not while we are in the flesh but after repentance the desire is there or else you haven't repented meaning you aren't thinking differently.

I know some think repentance isn't required but that's why the Lord is long suffering.
And John we know states that anyone that thinks they have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness the truth is not in him. I would think this means living in sin, not falling short or missing the mark. But the meaning and intent is there.

Danthemailman said:

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

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What is non-genuine faith then? You could have a fake Rolex watch which is not genuine but how can you have faith which is not genuine? Fake faith? It doesn't make sense. If someone has faith, obviously their faith is genuine. No question about that. I think you meant to say that all faith is always evidenced by works which is also a false doctrine btw.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

What is non-genuine faith then? You could have a fake Rolex watch which is not genuine but how can you have faith which is not genuine? Fake faith? It doesn't make sense. If someone has faith, obviously their faith is genuine. No question about that. I think you meant to say that all faith is always evidenced by works which is also a false doctrine btw.

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Non-genuine faith falls short of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. As for fake faith, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout various churches and it's not always easy telling them apart. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

Danthemailman said:

Non-genuine faith falls short of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. As for fake faith, there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout various churches and it's not always easy telling them apart. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

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What if you believe that you can live however you want but at the same time you turn from sins just because you want to? There's so many reasons why someone would want to turn from their sins. Even atheists often turn from their sins just because it's harmful to them (for example, drinking alcohol is harmful and many people turn from that sin even if they're not Christians).

I mean, I believe that I could go out and commit a murder or rape or something and still go to heaven. But do I want to commit those things, of course not. BUT even if I did, hypothetically speaking, I would still be sure that I would go to heaven anyway because going to heaven is not about your works or lifestyle and it's not evidenced by those things. It's about the Lord.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

What if you believe that you can live however you want but at the same time you turn from sins just because you want to? There's so many reasons why someone would want to turn from their sins. Even atheists often turn from their sins just because it's harmful to them (for example, drinking alcohol is harmful and many people turn from that sin even if they're not Christians).

I mean, I believe that I could go out and commit a murder or rape or something and still go to heaven. But do I want to commit those things, of course not. BUT even if I did, hypothetically speaking, I would still be sure that I would go to heaven anyway because going to heaven is not about your works or lifestyle and it's not evidenced by those things. It's about the Lord.

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Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration. Jesus clearly stated that we must be born again. (John 3:3)

Danthemailman said:

Moral self-reformation is not a substitute for regeneration. Jesus clearly stated that we must be born again. (John 3:3)

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Of course, that's the whole point. If even atheists can produce good works, then how can good works ever be evidence of being born again? Are the good works of atheists evidence that the atheists are saved? Obviously not.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

Of course, that's the whole point. If even atheists can produce good works, then how can good works ever be evidence of being born again? Are the good works of atheists evidence that the atheists are saved? Obviously not.

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God infallibly knows our hearts and knows the difference. James still said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

Danthemailman said:

God infallibly knows our hearts and knows the difference. James still said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18)

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If you read James 2 in context you would know that it's all about faith being profitable vs unprofitable. Not about going to heaven. And the writer of James 2 is not even talking to unsaved people anyway but to the brethren.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

If you read James 2 in context you would know that it's all about faith being profitable vs unprofitable. Not about going to heaven. And the writer of James 2 is not even talking to unsaved people anyway but to the brethren.

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As I already shared in post #8, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple. Also, just because a letter is addressed to "brethren" does not mean there are not unsaved people who even "profess" to be believers mixed in with the group.