SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

RileyG

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What defines what it feels like to be a man or woman, or how they think, outside of social gender roles?
If you’re a man, you’re a man, if you’re a woman, you’re a woman. There are no feelings involved. Only genetics and chromosomes.
 
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KCfromNC

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Merely being a "professional in the field" doesn't make someone immune from biases, or taking some marching orders from the institutions that provide their funding.

Nor does being outside of the field prevent one from talking an ideological approach toward what they might view as the one true and correct way to do research in that field.

But, to the topic at hand, my original assertion is still valid...they don't appear to be doing any serious studying of any approach that's an alternative to affirmation. The studies seem to be centered around how to optimize the affirmation approach.

Maybe we should let ourselves be guided by their informed take on the facts rather than letting biases of non experts direct where the research should lead?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Maybe we should let ourselves be guided by their informed take on the facts rather than letting biases of non experts direct where the research should lead?
No...

For the same reasons people were right to doubt the doctors who were endorsing specific cigarette brands decades back.

Were the doctors in those days more informed about medicine than the average person? Of course ...does that mean they're right about everything or that their statements are above questioning? No

People seem to think that "someone going to school for longer, but being corrupted or or wildly wrong about something" is a phenomenon that magically went away in the 60's.

There were doctors (with academic credentials far surpassing what you or I have) suggesting that homosexuality was a form of mental illness in my lifetime. Was their opinion above questioning? ("Just leave it to their informed take") Or is it a good thing that people questioned their stances?
 
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rturner76

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If you’re a man, you’re a man, if you’re a woman, you’re a woman. There are no feelings involved. Only genetics and chromosomes.
Yes, when we are referencing sex. These days, the terms gender and sex are not the same thing. From my understanding gender is how you live your life and sex is what one has been born. I always thought they were the same word but in a free society, people's ideas change and the meaning of words change.
 
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KCfromNC

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Lol I've pointed out over and over again why they are not similar.

All I've seen is assertions that they were different, but no explanation of how the similarities I posted were not factual. Perhaps you have a post in mind that you were thinking of you'd like us to reference?

Sure, treatments for the two conditions aren't identical. But it was interesting how every reason for why the treatments outlawed the in OP were bad also applied to pediatric cancer treatments as well.

Now maybe those aren't the actual reasons why this treatment is facing opposition (and the religious-based rationalizations quoted in the OP's article certainly make that clear). But it is strange the actual reasons are being hidden from us.
 
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RileyG

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Yes, when we are referencing sex. These days, the terms gender and sex are not the same thing. From my understanding gender is how you live your life and sex is what one has been born. I always thought they were the same word but in a free society, people's ideas change and the meaning of words change.
So, someone can change words based on a whim or what an ideology says? I don’t find that credible, personally.

If a man wants to “identify” as a woman, that’s his choice, but I choose biology over someone’s feelings.
 
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Adam56

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No...

For the same reasons people were right to doubt the doctors who were endorsing specific cigarette brands decades back.

Were the doctors in those days more informed about medicine than the average person? Of course ...does that mean they're right about everything or that their statements are above questioning? No

People seem to think that "someone going to school for longer, but being corrupted or or wildly wrong about something" is a phenomenon that magically went away in the 60's.

There were doctors (with academic credentials far surpassing what you or I have) suggesting that homosexuality was a form of mental illness in my lifetime. Was their opinion above questioning? ("Just leave it to their informed take") Or is it a good thing that people questioned their stances?
Meh I kinda think homosexuality is kinda a mental illness.
 
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Adam56

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Yes, when we are referencing sex. These days, the terms gender and sex are not the same thing. From my understanding gender is how you live your life and sex is what one has been born. I always thought they were the same word but in a free society, people's ideas change and the meaning of words change.
Nope, gender and sex are the same thing. A “transgender woman” is a psy-op. That is a man.

In fact, transgender doesn’t even exist. What does exist is transvestites, men who dress like women or women who dress like men.
 
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Ana the Ist

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That's pretty much why I said they need to get educated.

Where would they get educated if the doctors don't seem to understand what they're doing?

Is there some other group that has answers the doctors don't?


One reason could be that they don't yet have enough data to determine evidence-based standards.

I'd go as far as to say that's exactly the reason...and the reason why we shouldn't allow children to be "treated".

If the parents of a patient cannot understand what the doctor is telling them about what they DO know

The organization that I linked to you is the one creating the standards of care.

It's a collection of doctors and activists who are arguably the most knowledgeable on the topic.

Did they say why they cannot phrase their treatment plan in a way that can be understood or should they simply say, "you don't get it, not my problem" and carry on with their treatment plan?

I think the simplest way to explain this would be to say the whole concept of "gender identity" is just theoretical and possibly not real.

So when a child goes into the clinic and says that they say "I feel like a girl trapped in a boy's body"....

The doctor probably should say....

1. It's possible your son feels like a girl on the inside.

2. It's also possible that something else entirely is going on and #1 doesn't even make any sense.

3. It's possible that multiple things are going on and your son is deeply confused.

4. We have no way of knowing for certain or even with a high degree of likelihood whether your child is experiencing situation #1, #2, or #3.

5. In regards to treatment, we have no idea whether or not we can help your child with this situation....but we have recently learned that the drugs we've been prescribing children have stunted their development and in many cases, sterilized them permanently.

Now...if they told the parents that, it would be honest, but it wouldn't be Affirmative Care, and it seems unlikely any parents would return or choose treatment. This would defeat the entire purpose of the clinic.


No? Then why are you basing my lack of care for children on the notion that parents should have some understanding of their child's reflection?


Yes, and it is what I have been saying. Parents should be making an informed choice. The fact the the doctor can't explain the treatment plan to you then it's up to the parents to find one that can.

All doctors would have to state the above to be honest. It's not as if science one day proved that gender identity is a real thing that exists. It's a guess, one that's logically inconsistent, one that's frequently changing, and never had any evidence of its existence.

1) Would it be responsible to go forward with a treatment they can't understand? I don't know how you are proving your point here.

Let's say "no" it wouldn't be responsible.

Would you say that parent is "shoving their child back into the closet"?


Locking them in the closet just causes shame, embarrassment, and resentment.

Well if the parents can't understand the treatment or the problem, and no doctors are able to honestly explain it and keep their gender clinics in business....

What's the responsible choice here?
 
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Ana the Ist

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If you’re a man, you’re a man, if you’re a woman, you’re a woman. There are no feelings involved. Only genetics and chromosomes.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily true....

If I had to pin down a feeling that I would equate to being a man, I could, but they would all be related to anatomical experiences. Urinating while standing for example and not getting my feet wet.

I honestly think that's why there's this boom of "nonbinary" teens and young adults. They're told these "feel like a man/woman" feelings exist...and when they consider their own feelings, they don't have any such unique feelings.

It's not because they're nonbinary though....it's because these feelings don't exist.
 
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IceJad

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Our DNA isn’t “perfect”, we all get “wired” a bit differently, sometimes these differences add up to a brain that doesn’t recognize its very own body’s “parts”.

It’s bad enough that they find themselves being transgender, I, for one, will do everything I can to not make them miserable on top of that.

Affirming feelings is what gets everyone into trouble. Can a heart patient not listen to the doctor's advise on diet if it made him/her miserable? Doctors shouldn't affirm a patient's feeling but give proper medical advise. Especially so to minors.

Also we teach people to overcome challenges not give in and let them wallow by their own. Life is not fair to EVERYONE but we don't affirm helplessness. And we don't affirm minors to undergo any life altering changes.

As you have said our DNA isn't perfect, and yet you want to let minors undergo hormone therapy? Do you know what hormones do for human growth? So let's mess with that more because some people don't feel right in their body. Let's introduce foreign biological materials into the body that specifically affects the human growth. Has anyone weighed the pros and cons for the child?

When I was a child I don't like girls. I find guys more attractive. Am I gay? Turns out I'm not. That attraction was not love but comradery because we like the same things and play the same games. At 10 I started to look at girls differently. I find them fair and nice. That is love. Children change their world view as they mature and put different things into perspective.

You do know that de-transition happens right? What then will they have? The very thing they were advised was the cure to - a body they don't belong in. Unless we are willing to hold the parents and doctors liable to all future "regrets" keep all hands off the minors.

Why can't we wait for 18? Is there a reason to not wait for 18? An age where they can have an informed decision.
 
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IceJad

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I wouldn't say that is necessarily true....

If I had to pin down a feeling that I would equate to being a man, I could, but they would all be related to anatomical experiences. Urinating while standing for example and not getting my feet wet.

I honestly think that's why there's this boom of "nonbinary" teens and young adults. They're told these "feel like a man/woman" feelings exist...and when they consider their own feelings, they don't have any such unique feelings.

It's not because they're nonbinary though....it's because these feelings don't exist.

It's a hard to define subject. What defines feeling like the other gender? Is it preferences for certain items or activities? I would hope not for that would be the definition of social construct. So I guess it is an act or feeling that can only be explicitly expressed by biological makeup. It is very hard to disassociate it from biology like you said.

I know of feminine man who is straight as an arrow and masculine man who is gay. Tomboyish girl who is straight and feminine girl who is lesbian. But I guess that would be not accurate in the context of transgenders. Gays and lesbians acknowledge and are comfortable in their bodies.

To me the "rise" of the non-binary in gen Z has more to do with societal expectations than anything. Thought by the modern society that if they have the slightest inkling of liking the traditional aspect (ironically) of the other gender that they must be trans or at least queer. Reinforced daily by the affirmation of others that are alike. Akin to mob mentality.

This is not to say there are no true transgender. I personally know of 2. I don't think the numbers are as high as they reported it to be.
 
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BCP1928

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So, someone can change words based on a whim or what an ideology says? I don’t find that credible, personally.

If a man wants to “identify” as a woman, that’s his choice, but I choose biology over someone’s feelings.
So it's OK for you to harass him, discriminate against him, maybe even beat the crap out of him for being a sissy. That seems to be the Christian position on the matter. And to justify that response, gender identity must be a choice on his part. Yeah, I get it.
 
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rturner76

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So, someone can change words based on a whim or what an ideology says? I don’t find that credible, personally.

If a man wants to “identify” as a woman, that’s his choice, but I choose biology over someone’s feelings.
That is certainly your perrogitive but I do want to say that the vast majority of people don't decide they want to be a different gender on a whim.
 
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Nope, gender and sex are the same thing. A “transgender woman” is a psy-op. That is a man.

In fact, transgender doesn’t even exist. What does exist is transvestites, men who dress like women or women who dress like men.
You are welcome to your personal opinion but the words aren't used interchangeably in the medical community.
 
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RileyG

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That is certainly your perrogitive but I do want to say that the vast majority of people don't decide they want to be a different gender on a whim.
That’s correct. I’m sure it’s painful, but it’s not biologically possible to change your sex. That’s how I see it. My opinion only.
 
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rturner76

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Where would they get educated if the doctors don't seem to understand what they're doing?

Is there some other group that has answers the doctors don't?
I find it hard to believe that not one doctor knows anything about the pros and cons of transitioning gender. I think that one group of people they could contact is a group of doctors (preferably a pediatrition) who have experience treating this condition. again, that's keeping in mind that I don't believe that there are no doctors who understand anything about this condition. The first thing they should do is send them to a specialist like any other condition and then tey begin the evaluation that can at least determine whether the patient qualifies for treatment for it or if they are confused or have a motivation for transitioning that doesn't match with what they do know about the affliction.
I'd go as far as to say that's exactly the reason...and the reason why we shouldn't allow children to be "treated"
I wouldn't want my local pediatrician in general practice to treat for it. There are many steps between their first appointment to disclose what their family is dealing with and even discussing transition. There is no clinic where you walk in a boy and walk out a girl.
The organization that I linked to you is the one creating the standards of care.

It's a collection of doctors and activists who are arguably the most knowledgeable on the topic.
And they use their knowledge best practices I'm sure but different doctors have different approaches to te treatment of any condition. Let's take depression for example which is a physical affliction by a person not producing enough "feel good" chemicals or enzymes. One doctor might say "here are some pills, start with those and let me know if you feel worse. It should take about a month to kick in." Then there is a doctor who says (how often do you exercise and what is your diet like. Ok, start walking 20 minutes a day and cut the sugar and salt. Come see me in two weeks and we'll talk about how you feel again." Same, Dr. degree, same type of doctor but two different approaches, I don't think this lobby id doing wrong by make helpful suggestions or sharing data but if they are trying to get doctors to treat all patients the exact same way THAT is surely wrong in my book.
The doctor probably should say....

1. It's possible your son feels like a girl on the inside.

2. It's also possible that something else entirely is going on and #1 doesn't even make any sense.

3. It's possible that multiple things are going on and your son is deeply confused.

4. We have no way of knowing for certain or even with a high degree of likelihood whether your child is experiencing situation #1, #2, or #3.
I agree with 1, 2, and 3. Number 4 however I think in #4, Obviously we can't open up peoples brains and extract the data we need to make the leat harmful choice BUT there is a crapload of therapy, physical testing like blood check to monitor hormone levels and whatever else they need to check. If a person has a bad kidney they wouldn't want to prescribe a medication that is harmful to kidneys. Teter is also on-on-one, therapy, and group therapy to help the patient find the right words to best explain what they are feeling, and there are many levels of evaluations that are based on the answers the patient gives that can allow for an educated guess on how strong this feeling is and what is the feeling(s) exactly. So no, we can't take a blood test and get a readouf of trans or not trans. This is now an uncloseted issue so there is a higher demand for treatment but this phenomenon has been studied since the early 20th century so there is some date that canbe referenced and the evaluations change as they learn more information. If someone is a specialist in this area, they will be reading past and current studies and sharpening their minds on the topic more and more.
5. In regards to treatment, we have no idea whether or not we can help your child with this situation....but we have recently learned that the drugs we've been prescribing children have stunted their development and in many cases, sterilized them permanently.

Now...if they told the parents that, it would be honest, but it wouldn't be Affirmative Care, and it seems unlikely any parents would return or choose treatment. This would defeat the entire purpose of the clinic.
I think it is only right to give parents all of the facts so they can make an informed decision. If this group is advocating that doctor's keep that information to themselves, they are patently wrong ethically, and instead of calling it best practice, I would call it one of the worst possible practices. Are they honestly advocating drs. do that? Also by the activists in that group wanting people to think it's not a medical condition, they fail right out of the gate. And legal prescription involves a doctor's care not just for transgender but also for something like allergies or poison ivy. Pretty benign conditions and there is way more risk involved when trying to determine is someone is transgender and how best to treat them.

I'm not an activist about this topic nor do I think that every girl who feels like a boy needs to change their gender. I am for having as much information as possible and using the model like the Mayo Clinic where for each department/specialty there is a team of doctors who review and discuss diagnosis and treatment. If a team of world doctors can come to a consensus, I feel safer with that treatment than going by one particular approach from one doctorr=.
 
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RileyG

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I wouldn't say that is necessarily true....

If I had to pin down a feeling that I would equate to being a man, I could, but they would all be related to anatomical experiences. Urinating while standing for example and not getting my feet wet.

I honestly think that's why there's this boom of "nonbinary" teens and young adults. They're told these "feel like a man/woman" feelings exist...and when they consider their own feelings, they don't have any such unique feelings.

It's not because they're nonbinary though....it's because these feelings don't exist.
People who like both manly and womanly things aren’t non-binary….they’re still….biologically binary.

Feelings don’t trump genetics.
 
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