Ok, so what do you make of the creation order argument. Why did Paul make it?
rebellion. Temple prostitution, a woman in Ephesus in a religious role would have been considered a prostitute. That would have given the church a bad reputation. BTW temple prostitution is the basis of 3rd wave feminism. Not good for women either.
If you are saying that the reason he didn't want the woman in an authoritative role in the church in Ephesus was to prevent the impression that she was a temple prostitute, then what does the creation order have to do with that?
Temple prostitution, you have argued, is a local situation. But creation order is not.
So what is it he is trying to say about creation order? What difference did it make?
Apart from God? Or apart from the fall?
Certainly not apart from God either way. Even after the fall the husband is answerable to God, and any authority he has is derived from God, and is answerable to God.
Not stated in any way, and no, not my position.
Both serve God first, regardless.
But if God made an order, then that too is from God. Even after the fall in Ephesians 5 the husband is commanded to give himself up for the spouse as Christ did for the church. His authority is not exercised for his benefit, or at his whim, but in line with the responsibility given by God.
that sounds great until you realize he is talking to men who had absolute power over their wives and controlled everything they did, even to the point of murdering them.
Well yes, Ephesians does sound great! And if you are going to make a biblical argument, I hope you agree.
You reference the man having authority to kill....the man does NOT have authority to kill his wife from God.
It is God who commands him. He is governed by God, who is telling him to love His wife as he loves his own body, and to cherish her. God tells Him to love his wife as Christ loves the church. The text doesn't say order her around by his own whims. And it certainly doesn't mean to kill her.
Any authority the man has is delegated authority
B. It didn't say women couldn't teach at all. It said that they are not to hold authority over a man.
We see Priscilla teaching. And of course, we see the older women teaching the younger women to be obedient to their husbands. among other things:
in other words, you get no say and we make all the decisions. your job is to obey. Sounds like slavery to me.
teaching people to be obedient, that is what slaves do. There is nothing that makes a woman's life better, under the paradigm you are presenting she is little more than a servant.
So are you now claiming Paul didn't say this? Or was there another local reason for saying this?
You think that women being modest, or raising a family makes them a servant?
This was written to Titus, who was overseeing the churches in Crete.
So now you see local circumstances for female submission in:
But you would also have to find local reasons in
- Pontus
- Galatia
- Cappadocia
- Asia
- Bithynia
which Peter wrote this to:
1 Peter 3:1-7 1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. 3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this manner, in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, whose daughters you are if you do good and are not afraid with any terror. 7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. (NKJV)
He references Godly women of old, including Sarah, so again, not just limited to their culture.
And
Colossians 3:18 18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. (NKJV)
I suppose there is overlap as Ephesus and Colosse are in Asia. But the point is that this advice is given to various churches throughout a number of Roman Provinces (Corinth is in Achaia).
So at some point, if Paul and Peter say this to churches in:
- Corinth
- Crete
- Pontus
- Galatia
- Cappadocia
- Asia
- Bithynia
And Peter says holy women of old did this, including Sarah in Canaan, and Paul refers to the creation order, pre-fall, with Adam and Eve in the garden, then it gets fairly difficult to say it was just a local situation, if you are making a biblical argument.
