Did Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

tonychanyt · Apr 20, 2024

Probably not, not the real Samuel.

Leviticus 19:

31 “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

King Saul solicited the service of a medium in En-dor, 1 Samuel 28:

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel,

The writer thought it was Samuel.

she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.”

The medium was surprised that she saw Samuel.

13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god [elohim] coming up out of the earth.”

I think this was the spirit (elohim) figure that pretended to be the ghost of the dead Samuel.

14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?”

Saul could not see it.

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

Saul thought it was Samuel. He was desperate about the war with the Philistines and wanted to consult Samuel.

15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

Again, the writer assumed that it was Samuel's spirit.

“Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams.

God did not want to answer Saul by normal legal means of communication.

Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

On the one hand, the writer, the medium, and Saul all thought the spirit was Samuel. On the other hand, Moses disapproved of this summoning method (Lev 20:6, 27).

16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

The pretending spirit told the truth.

19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines,

True

and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me.

True in the sense that they would die; false in the sense that not all of them would be with Samuel.

The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.”

True.

A summary judgment is found in 1 Chronicles 10:

13 So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. 14 He did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

God allowed the pretending spirit of Samuel to communicate some facts to Saul. Many years later, God allowed a spirit to tell lies in the mouth of Ahab's bad prophets (1 Kings 22). God used satan-adversaries to accomplish his purposes one way or another.

Did the real Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

Yes, with a weight of 3.

No, with a weight of 7.

AlexB23 · Apr 20, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Probably not, not the real Samuel.

Leviticus 19:

King Saul solicited the service of a medium in En-dor, 1 Samuel 28:

The writer thought it was Samuel.

The medium was surprised that she saw Samuel.

I think this was the spirit (elohim) figure that pretended to be the ghost of the dead Samuel.

Saul could not see it.

Saul thought it was Samuel. He was desperate about the war with the Philistines and wanted to consult Samuel.

Again, the writer assumed that it was Samuel's spirit.

God did not want to answer Saul by normal legal means of communication.

On the one hand, the writer, the medium, and Saul all thought the spirit was Samuel. On the other hand, Moses disapproved of this summoning method (Lev 20:6, 27).

The pretending spirit told the truth.

True

True in the sense that they would die; false in the sense that not all of them would be with Samuel.

True.

A summary judgment is found in 1 Chronicles 10:

God allowed the pretending spirit of Samuel to communicate some facts to Saul. Many years later, God allowed a spirit to tell lies in the mouth of Ahab's bad prophets (1 Kings 22). God used satan-adversaries to accomplish his purposes one way or another.

Did the real Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

Yes, with a weight of 3.

No, with a weight of 7.

Well, Endor is a moon in Star Wars orbiting a gas giant, so Samuel did not appear to Saul in Endor, as Saul is from Earth.

Alright, I'll slowly walk myself out, as OT studies about the nuances of people in the Bible are not my thing. My favorite Bible studies are how we can apply the Bible to real life, such as helping folks with depression, discussing stewardship of the Earth, and ethics.

d taylor · Apr 21, 2024

-

Yes, that is what The Bible says.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2024

AlexB23 said:
Well, Endor is a moon in Star Wars orbiting a gas giant, so Samuel did not appear to Saul in Endor, as Saul is from Earth. Alright, I'll slowly walk myself out, as OT studies about the nuances of people in the Bible are not my thing. My favorite Bible studies are how we can apply the Bible to real life, such as helping folks with depression, discussing stewardship of the Earth, and ethics.

View attachment 346294

It did say... "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away"

Exegeses of Star wars A new Hope to begin..... Wait, or should I start with Return of the Jedi?!?

AlexB23 · May 10, 2024

Grip Docility said:
It did say... "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away" Exegeses of Star wars A new Hope to begin.....

Haha, yeah. You have to start the story somewhere. Man, I love sci-fi.

tonychanyt · May 11, 2024

AlexB23 said:
Haha, yeah. You have to start the story somewhere. Man, I love sci-fi.

Have you watched the 3 Body Problem?

Ted-01 · May 11, 2024

tonychanyt said:
I think this was the spirit (elohim) figure that pretended to be the ghost of the dead Samuel.

Hello again, Tony -
Can you help me to better understand how you came to the conclusion that the "elohim" was a spirit pretending to be Samuel?

My understanding of the word elohim H430 can include rulers/judges but also gods (plural)... so it would seem that she saw multiple "entities", but I'm unclear why we would assume any pretending was going on. I guess that it could be happening, but I'm just unclear how that conclusion is reached.

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

Ted-01 said:
Hello again, Tony -
Can you help me to better understand how you came to the conclusion that the "elohim" was a spirit pretending to be Samuel?

My understanding of the word elohim H430 can include rulers/judges but also gods (plural)... so it would seem that she saw multiple "entities", but I'm unclear why we would assume any pretending was going on. I guess that it could be happening, but I'm just unclear how that conclusion is reached.

Matthew 14:26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear.

I take that passage very seriously. It was placed there for a reason. What is our personal conclusion, from it?

Ted-01 · May 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Matthew 14:26 But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear.

I take that passage very seriously. It was placed there for a reason. What is our personal conclusion, from it?

Hi Grip - I don't know about "our" conclusion, lol, but my conclusion is that (at that time) the disciples believed in ghosts...and they weren't comfortable having them around??

Care to illuminate?

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

Ted-01 said:
Hi Grip - I don't know about "our" conclusion, lol, but my conclusion is that (at that time) the disciples believed in ghosts...and they weren't comfortable having them around??

Care to illuminate?

Did Jesus correct their doctrine, understanding of that doctrine?

Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

Ted-01 · May 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Did Jesus correct their doctrine, understanding of that doctrine?

Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

I appreciate the insight!
I guess this means that you believe that it was truly Samuel that the woman at En-dor saw...?

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

Ted-01 said:
I appreciate the insight!
I guess this means that you believe that it was truly Samuel that the woman at En-dor saw...?

I have a hard and specific rule to building ideas and opinions of things I speak of in reference to scripture. Jesus is the most Literal, undeniable Theological Truth... and if His red letters say it, no matter my perceptions.. I have to bow to His Red Letters, which are bread that proceed from the Bread of Life. Parabolically speaking, in answer to you.

Aaron112 · May 11, 2024

Ted-01 said:
Samuel that the woman at En-dor saw...?

Grip Docility said:
Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones,

Ted-01 said:
guess

"The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”"

NOT flesh and bones.

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

Aaron112 said:
"The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”

The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.”"

NOT flesh and bones.

Now, lets stop talking about this theological matter, or I will have to keep my night light on, tonight.

tonychanyt · May 11, 2024

Ted-01 said:
Can you help me to better understand how you came to the conclusion that the "elohim" was a spirit pretending to be Samuel?

Good question.

It was not my conclusion. See Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god, particularly meaning #2b.

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Good question.

It was not my conclusion. See Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god, particularly meaning #2b.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”

Psalm 82:6 430 [e] ’ĕ·lō·hîm

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

Elohim is a very generically used Hebrew word. It can denote Human Appointed Judges, Rulers and the Saints. It also can denote Angels.

When used in proper form, it replaces the Name of God YH-H. Which could actually be J-VH, but the reference remains.

Aaron112 · May 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Now, lets stop talking about this theological matter, or I will have to keep my night light on, tonight.

I may discuss the truth vs sin (error) (mistakes) (abominations) all night long easily.

But I never brook theological matters. God Hates Religion/Theology. (man's sorry attempts to put God and people into little boxes).

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

Aaron112 said:
I may discuss the truth vs sin (error) (mistakes) (abominations) all night long easily.

But I never brook theological matters. God Hates Religion/Theology. (man's sorry attempts to put God and people into little boxes).

We are all just fans of Jesus… peering into eternity with a magnifying glass…

For what it’s worth, my theological stance is open systematic… meaning I acknowledge I only have “opinions” and scripture will continually force them to grow and change as God allows.

My motivation is always the same… to preach Christ Crucified that the power of the cross is never emptied… and exalt the Omnibenevolent Humble King of kings, that is worthy of our praise and to be known by Love first and foremost.

One day, He will reckon all, from heaven to earth and those that truly are gripped by hatred and callousness of the heart will most likely meet a very terrible end. I pray for them, too!

I believe that on this thread, you will find people that just want to know and discover one more sliver about our HERO. <3

Aaron112 · May 12, 2024

Grip Docility said:
My motivation is always the same… to preach Christ Crucified

PERFECT!

Gradually, soon, maybe already, maybe quickly,

as JESUS becomes your wisdom and your knowledge and your healing,
all opinions evaporate along with all questions ! (experientially found this to be simply true without expectations of same).

Did Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

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