Virginia school board votes to restore Confederate names to two schools

Desk trauma said:

…or at least not naming them after traitors.

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Yep. So we need to change all the schools named after Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc.

Desk trauma said:

I know. I was working on getting my state to leave the union again until this name change proposal having total forgotten how poorly that went last time. Thankfully this happened and the war for succession is off, dodged that bullet, thanks VA!

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If we remove any and all mention of the Confederacy and those who fought for it - we cannot learn from the actions taken by those who were involved.

Zaha Torte said:

If we remove any and all mention of the Confederacy and those who fought for it - we cannot learn from the actions taken by those who were involved.

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Hence why we need that Timothy McVey high on n Oklahoma City so desperately! Nothing is named after him however shall his deeds not be forgotten?

Desk trauma said:

Hence why we need that Timothy McVey high on n Oklahoma City so desperately! Nothing is named after him however shall his deeds not be forgotten?

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Why do you believe that McVeigh is a proper comparison to Jackson and Lee and their like?

Could it be that you don't know much about the Civil War, the Confederacy and these men (including McVeigh since you don't know how to spell his name)?

Are you aware that you are proving my point for me?

The biggest mistake America ever made was not hanging every Confederate officer by the neck until dead.

Zaha Torte said:

Why do you believe that McVeigh is a proper comparison to Jackson and Lee and their like?

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They all made war against the federal government though Timmy had a much lower body count and wasn’t nearly as effective.

Zaha Torte said:

Could it be that you don't know much about the Civil War, the Confederacy and these men (including McVeigh since you don't know how to spell his name)?

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No

Zaha Torte said:

Are you aware that you are proving my point for me?

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I’m sure you think that, you say it to everyone who you argue with.

Chesterton said:

Yep. So we need to change all the schools named after Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc.

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No. While all committed treason, Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin weren’t losers like Robert E Lee was. If you are going to commit treason, make sure you win. Otherwise it should be a date with the gallows.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

No. While all committed treason, Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin weren’t losers like Robert E Lee was. If you are going to commit treason, make sure you win. Otherwise it should be a date with the gallows.

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You're quite the pragmatist, aren't you? Don't worry about principles, or right and wrong, just "might makes right".

But I'm curious, why just kill all the officers? Why not kill every soldier who volunteered? Why not kill every businessman and farmer who supported the South's war effort? Why not kill every private civilian who expressed support? Why not kill 'em all?

Chesterton said:

You're quite the pragmatist, aren't you? Don't worry about principles, or right and wrong, just "might makes right".

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Just a realist. Committing treason whether the Founding Fathers or the Confederates is an extremely high stakes gamble. If you fail, it should be death and you shouldn’t be at all shocked by that consequence. Washington gets schools named after him because he is a winner. Lee should be relegated to shame and history books because he lost.

Chesterton said:

But I'm curious, why just kill all the officers? Why not kill every soldier who volunteered? Why not kill every businessman and farmer who supported the South's war effort? Why not kill every private civilian who expressed support? Why not kill 'em all?

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We don’t need to wipe out a generation and cripple their ability to have a prosperous future. Just the officers sends a message that you better think long and hard about what you are about to do when you consider taking up arms against this country.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

Just a realist. Committing treason whether the Founding Fathers or the Confederates is an extremely high stakes gamble. If you fail, it should be death and you shouldn’t be at all shocked by that consequence. Washington gets schools named after him because he is a winner. Lee should be relegated to shame and history books because he lost.

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I don't want to Godwin the thread or anything, but I once read a book by this German guy with a funny little mustache, and you sound a little bit like him.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

We don’t need to wipe out a generation and cripple their ability to have a prosperous future. Just the officers sends a message that you better think long and hard about what you are about to do when you consider taking up arms against this country.

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But think of the possibilities. They might have wiped out the ancestors of Lynyrd Skynyrd. The world would have been spared ever having to sit through a 15 minute version of Free Bird.

Chesterton said:

I don't want to Godwin the thread or anything, but I once read a book by this German guy with a funny little mustache, and you sound a little bit like him.

But think of the possibilities. They might have wiped out the ancestors of Lynyrd Skynyrd. The world would have been spared ever having to sit through a 15 minute version of Free Bird.

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If Germany had appropriately punished Hitler after the Beer Hall Putsch, Nazi Germany would have never had a reign of rule. Failure to appropriately punish treason leads to bad things.

Laodicean60 said:

Who gives a darn about what you think of its symbolism if you don't like it close your eyes. Because you don't give a darn about what it symbolizes to me. I think the pride flag is an offense and it's an offense to everything good let's remove it from society. Do you agree? It's all about our worldview that we want to shove down each other's throats. Don't impose your morals or beliefs on me and I won't you. This is the whole problem with the world everybody is looking into their neighbor's yard while theirs is full of dog (s)poop.

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So clearly you acknowledge that certain symbolisms and elicit a certain visceral emotion then...you've displayed it here with your expressed distaste for the pride flag.

The problem is that the side that typically is the staunchest defenders of the confederate flag remaining on public property (and want to defend the choice name their schools after confederate generals 100 years after the fact) are just as much in the "shove the worldview down everyone's throats" camp as the side they claim to oppose.

That's not even touching on the contextual differences between the confederate flag and the pride flag.

Personally, do I think that elementary schools should be encouraging kids to wear rainbow colors and "celebrate pride"? No, I've been pretty vocal about the fact that elementary school (and possibly even Jr. High) is too young for those types of conversations.

However, I can acknowledge the difference between a symbol of inclusion vs a symbol of exclusion.

If the pride flag was attached to a history of legally dictating that "straight people can't use the good water fountains" "we don't want straight kids being allowed to attend the same schools" and "straight people have to sit on the back of the bus" and lynching straight people, then I'd be saying to take that down as well.


And while I get that people can't control who else likes the things they like (which is why I'm not a fan of the arguments centered around "This diabolical person endorses this candidate, that must mean the candidate is bad"

If a particular piece of symbolism is so lopsided in terms of who's embracing it and why it's perceived the way it is, it should at least give a person cause for a slight pause and reflection about why that is.
"Hmmm...why is it that this symbol I enjoy seems to be a staple of the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood?"


If it is "just a symbol", it shouldn't be hard to pick a newer one that reflects what one is trying to reflect, correct?
(Unless, part of the appeal is agitating the other side...which I think is the case for some with regards to the confederate flag...they want to "agitate the libs")

Zaha Torte said:

Why do you believe that McVeigh is a proper comparison to Jackson and Lee and their like?

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Off the top of my head, they both were anti-USA and both were responsible for killing a lot of people in the name of a delusional ideology?

GreatLakes4Ever said:

If Germany had appropriately punished Hitler after the Beer Hall Putsch, Nazi Germany would have never had a reign of rule. Failure to appropriately punish treason leads to bad things.

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Your position seems off-base to me because of its amoral nature. You say it's okay to name schools after Washington because "he won". By your logic, it would be okay to name schools after Lee if he had won. I'm sure I don't need to point out that those people in the streets a few years ago pulling down statues of Confederate heroes weren't doing so because they think they were bad soldiers, they think they were bad men. They were vandalizing on moral grounds.

Chesterton said:

Your position seems off-base to me because of its amoral nature. You say it's okay to name schools after Washington because "he won". By your logic, it would be okay to name schools after Lee if he had won. I'm sure I don't need to point out that those people in the streets a few years ago pulling down statues of Confederate heroes weren't doing so because they think they were bad soldiers, they think they were bad men. They were vandalizing on moral grounds.

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If Lee wasn’t a loser and had won, then he would have been viewed in the Confederate States of America the same way George Washington is viewed in the United States of America.

Both owned slaves so from that stand point, yes, the only good slave is owner is a dead slave owner. But that isn’t why Washington and Lee are viewed differently.

The key difference is, Washington committed treason but then lived in a country he helped found and that country respects him. Lee committed but failed and lived in the country he committed treason against. If the USA was smart, the traitor would have met a traitor’s end. The same way Washington would have if the American Revolution failed.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

If Lee wasn’t a loser and had won, then he would have been viewed in the Confederate States of America the same way George Washington is viewed in the United States of America.

Both owned slaves so from that stand point, yes, the only good slave is owner is a dead slave owner. But that isn’t why Washington and Lee are viewed differently.

The key difference is, Washington committed treason but then lived in a country he helped found and that country respects him. Lee committed but failed and lived in the country he committed treason against. If the USA was smart, the traitor would have met a traitor’s end. The same way Washington would have if the American Revolution failed.

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I gotta say, you're the most bloodthirsty humanist I ever met.

Chesterton said:

I gotta say, you're the most bloodthirsty humanist I ever met.

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If you want to just take pot shots at each other’s character, you can find someone else to have an extremity measuring contest with.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

At least I’m able to say “the only good slave owner is a dead slave owner” without indicting the morality of a deity I believe is the epitome of good.

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I'm curious about the German traitors who attempted to assassinate Hitler and stage a coup to end WW2. The Nazis killed 4,980 people believed to be connected with that attempt. I'm guessing you must think the Nazis did nothing wrong.

Chesterton said:

I'm curious about the German traitors who attempted to assassinate Hitler and stage a coup to end WW2. The Nazis killed 4,980 people believed to be connected with that attempt. I'm guessing you must think the Nazis did nothing wrong.

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The Nazis are evil. Full stop. Same as slave owners. They are evil. Full stop.

Those that committed treason against the Nazis failed and were executed because of it. If they succeeded they would have been regarded as heroes. I thank them for their attempt but since they failed they suffered the consequences. If you want to commit treason, make sure you are successful or you will suffer death.

Lee committed treason and failed, therefore he should have suffered death. Washington committed treason and succeeded so he is regarded as a hero. Both owned humans as property and are considered evil because of it.

GreatLakes4Ever said:

The Nazis are evil. Full stop. Same as slave owners. They are evil. Full stop.

Those that committed treason against the Nazis failed and were executed because of it. If they succeeded they would have been regarded as heroes. I thank them for their attempt but since they failed they suffered the consequences. If you want to commit treason, make sure you are successful or you will suffer death.

Lee committed treason and failed, therefore he should have suffered death. Washington committed treason and succeeded so he is regarded as a hero. Both owned humans as property and are considered evil because of it.

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Nazis bad. Slavery bad. I admire your bravery in going out on a limb to take such bold positions, but is that a yes or a no to my question?