Election's Historicity (Doctrinal Counter Perspective)

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Inroduction to Jehan Cauvin and the Origins of Church History.​

The Doctrine of Election was contrived by the French Theologian Jehan Cauvin (John Calvin). Jehan had developed it by 1536AD, but continued amending and honing it all the way up to1556AD due to frequent scriptural rebuttal from biblical scholars like, Sebastian Castellio. Jehan was one of the final contributing voices to the Protestant Reformation, which is to say a fracture from the Body of Christ which intended to Reform the Biblical Canon as well as the doctrines and practices of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. To be "Protestant" has lost understanding, but it is to say that a person is Protesting against the Holy Roman Universal (Catholic) Church that was born from the Papal lineage of Peter. There is a second lineage that Protestants adopt, which is a "Scriptural Chain of Custody" Lineage. Whatever a persons stance on this matter, both Lineages of Doctrine are relevant to the validity of Canon and assert that Biblical Canon has remained genuine and intact.

Not so Sola Scriptura and Similarities between Reform and Catholicism​

It is noted in history that Jehan's living influence was Martin Bucer. HIs deceased influences were based on the early church scriptural chain of custody, lineage. It was common practice for men like Irenaeus of Lyons to write extensive commentary on scripture. “The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]). This growing volume of Commentaries, by the time they arrived to Reformation Theologians like Bucer and Cauvin were prolific in nature. They had become a sort of prophetic extrabiblical addendum to scripture, in the minds of Reformed theologians, identically to how many Popes wrote on scripture, under the edict of Papal infallibility. Martin Luther was behind one of the 5 pillars of reform, Sola Scriptura, which is a proclamation against the Catholic church for utilizing extra biblical writings to generate Church Doctrine. However, Theologians like Jehan and Bucer, while claiming to be "Scripture Only", heavily drew from the writings of the custodians of scripture to create doctrine. One cannot claim to use The Holy Spirt to exegete scripture, while incorporating exegesis of extra biblical origins into their doctrines. This would be like saying one drinks water, only, but adds lemon, to their water.

Eusebius and Pegan Inspiration​

Eusebius is one of the early men that was entrusted with Scriptural Chain of custody. He is known for DEEPLY infusing Plato's writings into his exegesis and summaries. We have direct evidence of this in books 11 (Book XI Eusebius of Caesarea), 12 (BOOK XII Eusebius of Caesarea) and lastly 13 (Book XIII Eusebius of Caesarea). This is no small doing. Eusebius absorbed the core elements of PLATO's Pegan musings about God, then ultimately utilized that knowledge to infuse into the concepts of God's Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. Plato essentially created an Image of God that was incapable of experience through Plato's personal human musings about what it means to Know All Things. He fastened a very BLIND to experiential reality facet to the Omniscience aspect of God, which removed God's ability to be a Living, Breathing, Experiencing Being. Plato's private illusions which alluded to God's "Perfection", were void of "Benevolence". Plato, mused that Perfection was a state that was so precise, that the very deviation of Consciousness to one matter or another would topple the essence of perfection. Plato's musings seem to De-Anthropomorphize God. This is a severe issue, because YH-H's very name is not only "I AM That I AM", but the very 4 ancient Hebrew Characters are known to illicit a distinct Living Breathing sound that is poetically necessary to understand as Living and Breathing. To remove the Living, Breathing, Experiential aspect of God from God is very directly attacking the Sacred Name of God. This is not to say that Eusebius was a bad man. It is simply to say that men followed him, in doctrine, which is the issue. Eusebius wrote many beautiful things.

Augustine and Gnosticism​

By the time the Line of Eusebius's Plato infused writings reached Augustine, Platonic Christianity had become the norm. Most, all of Christendom, or to say Tongue and Cheek wise, ALL (In terms of Limited Atonement) of Christendom had adopted Pegan musings into their lens of viewing God. Augustine's volumes of Commentary were even greater than Eusebius's. A matter of fact is that Augustine subscribed to and then openly RECANTED of a known Heresy of his time. Manicheanism was the name of the Heresy which consisted of Zoroastrian Dualism, Babylonian folklore, Buddhist ethics, and some small and superficial, additions of Christian elements. The most prominent aspects of Manicheanism are that God and Satan are Pre-eminent and Pre-existing. God did not "Create" Satan in Manicheanism. This was a cleaver way of saying that Good and Evil are 1, yet separated, though the Pre-Eminence and infusion of all that exists. Manicheanism taught about Aeon's the term appropriated by Gnostic heresiarchs to designate the series of spiritual powers evolved by progressive emanation from the eternal Being, and constituting the Pleroma or invisible spiritual world, as distinct from the Kenoma, or visible material world. This is to say that all that exists is derived from Good and Evil. As all Heretical Gnosticism taught, Knowledge is our Salvation. This is to say that God isn't our savior, but instead that knowledge is our savior. Though Augustine wrote vehemently against Manicheanism, his doctrine of original sin incorporated the idea that flesh itself carries "Sin". This is a direct take from Gnosticism in this way; " The only hope for humankind, while locked in this evil shell of a body is to spiritually transcend this world and deny the body." This almost sounds like Paul saying "Oh Body of Death", but Paul, when speaking of The Old Man and The New Creation in Christ is paralleling the condemnation of the Law (Old Covenant Man) with his Faith in Jesus (New Covenant Man). The war within Paul is most specifically, but not scripturally limited to... Trusting the Work of Christ which yields the Holy Spirit and the Fruits of the Spirit or trusting his ability to Follow the Covenant of Stone, which yields death. The Battle is within Paul's mind and NOT AGAINST his Flesh. It is unmistakable that Paul is also emphasizing that we fail, sin, goof up, yet Christ's Grace is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT... but Paul isn't teaching Gnosticism that assumes Creation itself, including our flesh, is evil. Augustine asserted that Sin itself was evidence of free will, yet struggled to separate the Pre-Existing Nature of God, from the Dualism of Manicheanism... and would speak of God punishing, yet doing so justly... and then Augustine's writings would struggle to reconcile the Love of God with the presence of Evil. Augustine, unknowingly painted a picture of God that was Good and Evil, but NOT Evil, because we can never ascribe evil to God, therefore what appears Evil by God is actually "Justice". Augustine said MANY beautiful things! He had many wonderful points and perspectives. This was simply a matter of fact within Augustine's writings.

The Distillery of Election​

Now, with all of this being read and regurgitated, gurgitated, then regurgitated... from Augustine to Jehan, these two discussed matters of Pegan Platonism and Gnostic Duality were stoutly distilled into a very Potent form of these ideas, infused into Christendom. It is exactly here, with Jehan, that both the idea of Pegan Omniscience and Gnostic Dualism get infused into a very popular doctrine of Election, now discussed under the Umbrella of Predestination, which in Layman's terms presents forth the following idea;

Election and The Double Child of Predestination​

Due to God's Platonically defined Sovereign Omniscience, God is INCAPABLE of creating a system of Creation in which, just as God has Sovereign Moral Agency, His creations have Sovereign Moral Agency. It now becomes apparent that by this Human Logic, No matter how God creates a Being, He will know that Beings every decision... and upon inception, has already decided the Salvic fate of that created being. I don't have Jehan's debate notes, but I can already surmise by kindergarten level logic that his initial Doctrine based itself upon the observation of the life of each human being, and by merit of the life lived by each human being, chose some to become ELLECTED unto salvation. What was the war-cry of Luther, that started the Reformation? As Luther was intentionally inflicting recompense upon his flesh, by walking up stairs on his knees, he heard the words... "The Just Shall Live By Faith". A Single Predestination doctrine would be heresy, under the most stringent guide of all of the reformists, because Luther's demand that the Just shall live by faith is erased, by the idea that in reverse evaluation, the Elect aren't saved by Faith, but by merit of their Good and Godly lived life, that God pre-selected them by. How do we defend this idea? We can Double Pre-Destine Mankind. One set of people are randomly selected per Divine Lottery for salvation, while the other set of people are selected for the purpose of Eternal Damnation and pain. Why is this done? Only God's great, perfect Sovereignty is to be demonstrated in doctrine... so this is to Glorify God. God demonstrates his Sovereignty by creating Reprobates that serve the purpose to guide and teach the Elect the utter wickedness of not being according to God's ways. The Gnosticism and Pegan Platonian Strong Drink assist in this being true, because we can then say, By God's Magnificent Sovereignty, He has demonstrated His PERFECTION by creation it's self. Remember, Perfection binds God to a flatline of emotive demonstration or experience. To God, He is merely Doing what He has Already done, and humanity is just a tool to Demonstrate God's Majesty, to God.

This is all and well, but there is a specific doctrinal issue with Single and Double Predestination, which has to functionally exist for Election to be true.

It rests on the Hebrew of the matter. The most imperative word within all of the above work of John Calvin is Sovereignty. This word denotes that God is fully capable of doing as He pleases in the matter of Election through the mechanism of Double Predestination (Random widgets to Heaven and Random widgets to Eternal Hell). If a theist uses the term "Free Will" the idea of Sophism combined with Semantics is employed. The argument will then become... there is no such thing as "Free Will". If a person were to as ad nauseum as it is in discussion about God's inability to instill genuine free will into His creation, instead define and combine the terms Individual Autonomous Free Moral Agency... the term would express God giving His creations Agency that is independent of His agency, thus a form of Self Sovereignty that has genuine, non-illusionary choice.

Enter Genesis, Daniel and Colossians: In Genesis, God does far more than just provide Sovereignty. God BLESSES mankind with Sovereignty, which by the very Hebrew word used for "Dominion", is Sovereignty. Daniel Talks about Jesus Christ's Sovereignty that is established Post Ascension. This passage in Daniel Echo's Colossians 1 where it again, Denotes all authority to Christ post Ascension.

The Passage in Daniel affirms the legitimacy of the implication in Genesis... and Echo's the exact rhythm of Adam being the First, while Christ is the Second "Adam". The interlinking of Genesis 1 and Colossians 1 are Poetic by Hebrew nature. While Jesus is Given Heavenly and Earthly Sovereignty in Colossians, Adam and Even are BLESSED with Earthly Sovereignty in Genesis 1.

This is how this looks in the verses and in the Hebrew.

In Daniel the word for Dominion is the NOUN Sholtan (A Sultan), while in Genesis the word for Dominion is the Active VERB Radah (A Raja) to give Sultan (The Noun) ), BUT, Raja is a Verb, in this case which would indicate that (Sultan), was given, via the active Hebrew Verb (Raja.)​
To respect ALL scripture... The passage indicates that Y-WH Barak (Blessed) them actively "Raja verb" which would then imply the Masculine Noun Sultin has been given as a gift to Adam and Eve. This matches the Biblical account that the First Adam was incapable of restoring Dominion. This then goes forward to show that Christ (The Second Adam) Could and Did Restore Sultan to God.​
Daniel 7:14 (This Hebrew word is Sholtan) Noun
Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign (Dominion is the render of Sovereign in the Hebrew interlinear, because it is again Sultan) power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion (Sultan) is an everlasting.​

Genesis 1:28 (This Hebrew word is Radah) Verb
Genesis 1:28 says They were given Dominion over EVERY LIVING THING ON EARTH.
Daniel 7:14
Hebrew word for Dominion​
Genesis 1:28​

sholtan: dominion
Original Word: שָׁלְטָן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: sholtan

Phonetic Spelling: (shol-tawn')
Definition: dominion​
radah: reign
Original Word: רָדָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: radah
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-daw')
Definition: to have dominion, rule, dominate​

Now, that we understand this reference... the defensive response could insinuate that Adam and Eve weren't given full Rule, Dominion, Domination, Sultan of themselves and the earth.... However, this would immediately defame the Supremacy of Christ, as the very rhetoric God used towards Adam and Eve in Genesis 1, in reference to Adam and Eve's Rule over the earth is identically echoed towards Jesus Christ, though towards Heaven and Earth as Creator is added in Reference to God the Son.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created humankind in his own image;
in the image of God
he created him:
male and female he created them.

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them: God said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air and every living creature that crawls on the earth.”
Colossians 1:5-6 This Good News 6 has made its presence felt among you, just as it is also being fruitful and multiplying[a] throughout the world
Colossians 1:10
being fruitful in every good work and multiplying in the full knowledge of God.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.[i]
16 For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.


This Concludes this fairly exhaustive study
 
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Clare73

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Inroduction to Jehan Cauvin and the Origins of Church History.​

The Doctrine of Election was contrived by the French Theologian Jehan Cauvin (John Calvin). Jehan had developed it by 1536AD, but continued amending and honing it all the way up to1556AD due to frequent scriptural rebuttal from biblical scholars like, Sebastian Castellio. Jehan was one of the final contributing voices to the Protestant Reformation, which is to say a fracture from the Body of Christ which intended to Reform the Biblical Canon as well as the doctrines and practices of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. To be "Protestant" has lost understanding, but it is to say that a person is Protesting against the Holy Roman Universal (Catholic) Church that was born from the Papal lineage of Peter. There is a second lineage that Protestants adopt, which is a "Scriptural Chain of Custody" Lineage. Whatever a persons stance on this matter, both Lineages of Doctrine are relevant to the validity of Canon and assert that Biblical Canon has remained genuine and intact.

Not so Sola Scriptura and Similarities between Reform and Catholicism​

It is noted in history that Jehan's living influence was Martin Bucer. HIs deceased influences were based on the early church scriptural chain of custody, lineage. It was common practice for men like Irenaeus of Lyons to write extensive commentary on scripture. “The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]). This growing volume of Commentaries, by the time they arrive to Reformation Theologians like Bucer and Cauvin are prolific in nature. They had became a sort of prophetic extrabiblical addendum to scripture, in the minds of Reformed theologians, identically to how many Popes wrote on scripture, under the edict of Papal infallibility. Martin Luther was behind one of the 5 pillars of reform, Sola Scriptura, which is a proclamation against the Catholic church for utilizing extra biblical writings to generate Church Doctrine. However, Theologians like Jehan and Bucer, while claiming to be "Scripture Only", heavily drew from the writings of the custodians of scripture to create doctrine. One cannot claim to use The Holy Spirt to exegete scripture, while incorporating exegesis of extra biblical origins into their doctrines. This would be like saying one drinks water, only, but adds lemon, to their water.

Eusebius and Pegan Inspiration​

Eusebius is one of the early men that was entrusted with Scriptural Chain of custody. He is known for DEEPLY infusing Plato's writings into his exegesis and summaries. We have direct evidence of this in books 11 (Book XI Eusebius of Caesarea), 12 (BOOK XII Eusebius of Caesarea) and lastly 13 (Book XIII Eusebius of Caesarea). This is no small doing. Eusebius absorbed the core elements of PLATO's Pegan musings about God, then ultimately utilized that knowledge to infuse into the concepts of God's Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. Plato essentially created an Image of God that was incapable of experience through Plato's personal human musings about what it means to Know All Things. He fastened a very BLIND to experiential reality to this aspect of God, which removed God's ability to be a Living, Breathing, Experiencing Being. Plato's private illusions which alluded to God's "Perfection", were void of "Benevolence". Plato, mused that Perfection was a state that was so precise, that the very deviation of Consciousness to one matter or another would topple the essence of perfection. Plato's musings seem to De-Anthropomorphize God. This is a severe issue, because YH-H's very name is not only "I AM That I AM", but the very 4 ancient Hebrew Characters are known to illicit a distinct Living Breathing sound that is poetically necessary to understand as Living and Breathing. To remove the Living, Breathing, Experiential aspect of God from God is very directly attacking the Sacred Name of God.

Augustine and Gnosticism​

By the time the Line of Eusebius's Plato infused writings reached Augustine, Platonic Christianity had become the norm. Most, all of Christendom, or to say Tongue and Cheek wise, ALL (In terms of Limited Atonement) of Christendom had adopted Pegan musings into their lens of viewing God. Augustine's volumes of Commentary were even greater than Eusebius's. A matter of fact is that Augustine subscribed to and then openly RECANTED of a known Heresy of his time. Manicheanism was the name of the Heresy which consisted of Zoroastrian Dualism, Babylonian folklore, Buddhist ethics, and some small and superficial, additions of Christian elements. The most prominent aspects of Manicheanism are that God and Satan are Pre-eminent. God did not "Create" Satan in Manicheanism. This was a cleaver way of saying that Good and Evil are 1, yet separated, though the Pre-Eminence and infusion of all that exists. Manicheanism taught about Aeon's the term appropriated by Gnostic heresiarchs to designate the series of spiritual powers evolved by progressive emanation from the eternal Being, and constituting the Pleroma or invisible spiritual world, as distinct from the Kenoma, or visible material world. This is to say that all that exists is derived from Good and Evil. As all Heretical Gnosticism taught, Knowledge is our Salvation. This is to say that God isn't our savior, but instead that knowledge is our savior. Though Augustine wrote vehemently against Manicheanism, his doctrine of original sin incorporated the idea that flesh itself carries "Sin". This is a direct take from Gnosticism in this way; " The only hope for humankind, while locked in this evil shell of a body is to spiritually transcend this world and deny the body." This almost sounds like Paul saying "Oh Body of Death", but Paul, when speaking of The Old Man and The New Creation in Christ is paralleling the condemnation of the Law (Old Covenant Man) with his Faith in Jesus (New Covenant Man). The war within Paul is most specifically, but not scripturally limited to... Trusting the Work of Christ which yields the Holy Spirit and the Fruits of the Spirit or trusting his ability to Follow the Covenant of Stone, which yields death. The Battle is within Paul's mind and NOT AGAINST his Flesh. It is unmistakable that Paul is also emphasizing that we fail, sin, goof up, yet Christ's Grace is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT... but Paul isn't teaching Gnosticism that assumes Creation itself, including our flesh, is evil. Augustine asserted that Sin itself was evidence of free will, yet struggled to separate the Pre-Existing Nature of God, from the Dualism of Manicheanism... and would speak of God punishing, yet doing so justly... and then Augustine's writings would struggle to reconcile the Love of God with the presence of Evil. Augustine, unknowingly painted a picture of God that was Good and Evil, but NOT Evil, because we can never ascribe evil to God, therefore what appears Evil by God is actually "Justice". Augustine said MANY beautiful things! He had many wonderful points and perspectives. This was simply a matter of fact within Augustine's writings.

The Distillery of Election​

Now, with all of this being read and regurgitated, gurgitated, then regurgitated... from Augustine to Jehan, these two discussed matters of Pegan Platonism and Gnostic Duality were stoutly distilled into a very Potent form of these ideas, infused into Christendom. It is exactly here, with Jehan, that both the idea of Pegan Omniscience and Gnostic Dualism get infused into a very popular doctrine of Election, now discussed under the Umbrella of Predestination, which in Layman's terms presents forth the following idea;

Election and The Double Child of Predestination​

Due to God's Platonically defined Sovereign Omniscience, God is INCAPABLE of creating a system of Creation in which, just as God has Sovereign Moral Agency, His creations have Sovereign Moral Agency. It now becomes apparent that by this Human Logic, No matter how God creates a Being, He will know that Beings every decision... and upon inception, has already decided the Salvic fate of that created being. I don't have Jehan's debate notes, but I can already surmise by kindergarten level logic that his initial Doctrine based itself upon the observation of the life of each human being, and by merit of the life lived by each human being, chose some to become ELLECTED unto salvation. What was the war-cry of Luther, that started the Reformation? As Luther was intentionally inflicting recompense upon his flesh, by walking up stairs on his knees, he heard the words... "The Just Shall Live By Faith". A Single Predestination doctrine would be heresy, under the most stringent guide of all of the reformists, because Luther's demand that the Just shall live by faith is erased, by the idea that in reverse evaluation, the Elect aren't saved by Faith, but by merit of their Good and Godly lived life, that God pre-selected them by. How do we defend this idea? We can Double Pre-Destine Mankind. One set of people are randomly selected per Divine Lottery for salvation, while the other set of people are selected for the purpose of Eternal Damnation and pain. Why is this done? Only God's great, perfect Sovereignty is to be demonstrated in doctrine... so this is to Glorify God. God demonstrates his Sovereignty by creating Reprobates that serve the purpose to guide and teach the Elect the utter wickedness of not being according to God's ways. The Gnosticism and Pegan Platonian Strong Drink assist in this being true, because we can then say, By God's Magnificent Sovereignty, He has demonstrated His PERFECTION by creation it's self. Remember, Perfection binds God to a flatline of emotive demonstration or experience. To God, He is merely Doing what He has Already done, and humanity is just a tool to Demonstrate God's Majesty, to God.

This is all and well, but there is a specific doctrinal issue with Single and Double Predestination, which has to functionally exist for Election to be true.

It rests on the Hebrew of the matter. The most imperative word within all of the above work of John Calvin is Sovereignty. This word denotes that God is fully capable of doing as He pleases in the matter of Election through the mechanism of Double Predestination (Random widgets to Heaven and Random widgets to Eternal Hell). If a theist uses the term "Free Will" the idea of Sophism combined with Semantics is employed. The argument will then become... there is no such thing as "Free Will". If a person were to as ad nauseum as it is in discussion about God's inability to instill genuine free will into His creation, instead define and combine the terms Individual Autonomous Free Moral Agency... the term would express God giving His creations Agency that is independent of His agency, thus a form of Self Sovereignty that has genuine, non-illusionary choice.

Enter Genesis, Daniel and Colossians: In Genesis, God does far more than just provide Sovereignty. God BLESSES mankind with Sovereignty, which by the very Hebrew word used for "Dominion", is Sovereignty. Daniel Talks about Jesus Christ's Sovereignty that is established Post Ascension. This passage in Daniel Echo's Colossians 1 where it again, Denotes all authority to Christ post Ascension.

The Passage in Daniel affirms the legitimacy of the implication in Genesis... and Echo's the exact rhythm of Adam being the First, while Christ is the Second "Adam". The interlinking of Genesis 1 and Colossians 1 are Poetic by Hebrew nature. While Jesus is Given Heavenly and Earthly Sovereignty in Colossians, Adam and Even are BLESSED with Earthly Sovereignty in Genesis 1.

This is how this looks in the verses and in the Hebrew.



Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign (Dominion is the render of Sovereign in the Hebrew interlinear, because it is again Sultan) power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion (Sultan) is an everlasting.​


Genesis 1:28 says They were given Dominion over EVERY LIVING THING ON EARTH.
Daniel 7:14 Hebrew word for Dominion​

sholtan: dominion
Original Word: שָׁלְטָן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: sholtan

Phonetic Spelling: (shol-tawn')
Definition: dominion​
radah: reign
Original Word: רָדָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: radah
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-daw')
Definition: to have dominion, rule, dominate​

Now, that we understand this reference... the defensive response could insinuate that Adam and Eve weren't given full Rule, Dominion, Domination, Sultan of themselves and the earth.... However, this would immediately defame the Supremacy of Christ, as the very rhetoric God used towards Adam and Eve in Genesis 1, in reference to Adam and Eve's Rule over the earth is identically echoed towards Jesus Christ, though towards Heaven and Earth as Creator is added in Reference to God the Son.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created humankind in his own image;
in the image of God
he created him:
male and female he created them.

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them: God said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air and every living creature that crawls on the earth.”
Colossians 1:5-6 This Good News 6 has made its presence felt among you, just as it is also being fruitful and multiplying[a] throughout the world
Colossians 1:10
being fruitful in every good work and multiplying in the full knowledge of God.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.[i]
16 For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.


This Concludes this fairly exhaustive study
Election is simply being chosen by God for his purposes: e.g.,
Isaac, and not Ishmael, for the offspring of Abraham,
Jacob, and not Esau, to receive the inheritance,
believers in, and not rejectors, of Christ to receive salvation,
those born of the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (as unaccountable as the wind), and not the unregenerate, to receive faith in Christ,
those of faith in Jesus Christ, not those of unbelief, to receive salvation from God's judgment on sin.
 
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Election is simply being chosen by God for his purposes: e.g.,
Isaac, and not Ishmael, for the offspring of Abraham,
Jacob, and not Esau, to receive the inheritance,
believers in, and not rejectors, of Christ to receive salvation,
those born of the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (as unaccountable as the wind), and not the unregenerate, to receive faith in Christ,
those of faith in Jesus Christ, not those of unbelief, to receive salvation from God's judgment on sin.
I’m ensuring something…. before I respond.

You are quite the delightful enigma…

Did Jesus Die for All of Humanity, including those that reject Him?
 
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John 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up[a] from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

Greek word 3956 Strongs "pas: all, every" (Usage: all, the whole, every kind of)
 
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Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son.

14 It is through His Son that we have redemptionthat is, our sins have been forgiven. 15 He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, 16 because in connection with Him were created all things — in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities — they have all been created through Him and for him. 17 He existed before all things, and He holds everything together.

18 Also He is head of the Body, the Messianic Community — He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might hold first place in everything. 19 For it pleased God to have his full being live in His Son 20 and through His Son to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through Him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake (The Cross).
 
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Colossians 1:16
Colossians 1:16
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong'sGreekEnglishMorphology
3754 [e]ὅτι
hoti
becauseConj
1722 [e]ἐν
en
inPrep
846 [e]αὐτῷ
autō
HimPPro-DM3S
2936 [e]ἐκτίσθη
ektisthē
were createdV-AIP-3S
3588 [e]τὰ
ta
-Art-NNP
3956 [e]πάντα
panta
all thingsAdj-NNP
1722 [e]ἐν
en
inPrep
3588 [e]τοῖς
tois
theArt-DMP
3772 [e]οὐρανοῖς
ouranois
heavensN-DMP
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
andConj
1909 [e]ἐπὶ
epi
uponPrep
3588 [e]τῆς
tēs
theArt-GFS
1093 [e]γῆς,
gēs
earth,N-GFS
3588 [e]τὰ
ta
theArt-NNP
3707 [e]ὁρατὰ
horata
visibleAdj-NNP
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
andConj
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517 [e]ἀόρατα,
aorata
invisible,Adj-NNP
1535 [e]εἴτε
eite
whetherConj
2362 [e]θρόνοι
thronoi
thronesN-NMP
1535 [e]εἴτε
eite
orConj
2963 [e]κυριότητες
kyriotētes
dominionsN-NFP
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746 [e]ἀρχαὶ
archai
rulersN-NFP
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eite
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1849 [e]ἐξουσίαι·
exousiai
authorities;N-NFP
3588 [e]τὰ
ta
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3956 [e]πάντα
panta
all thingsAdj-NNP
1223 [e]δι’
di’
throughPrep
846 [e]αὐτοῦ
autou
HimPPro-GM3S
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
andConj
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
untoPrep
846 [e]αὐτὸν
auton
HimPPro-AM3S
2936 [e]ἔκτισται·
ektistai
have been created.V-RIM/P-3S
 
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Grip Docility

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Colossians 1:20
Colossians 1:20
Text Analysis
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Strong'sGreekEnglishMorphology
2532 [e]καὶ
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andConj
1223 [e]δι’
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byPrep
846 [e]αὐτοῦ
autou
HimPPro-GM3S
604 [e]ἀποκαταλλάξαι
apokatallaxai
to reconcileV-ANA
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panta
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auton
Himself,PPro-AM3S
1517 [e]εἰρηνοποιήσας
eirēnopoiēsas
having made peaceV-APA-NMS
1223 [e]διὰ
dia
byPrep
3588 [e]τοῦ
tou
theArt-GNS
129 [e]αἵματος
haimatos
bloodN-GNS
3588 [e]τοῦ
tou
of theArt-GMS
4716 [e]σταυροῦ
staurou
crossN-GMS
846 [e]αὐτοῦ,
autou
of Him,PPro-GM3S
1223 [e]δι’
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throughPrep
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the thingsArt-ANP
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onPrep
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tēs
theArt-GFS
1093 [e]γῆς
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earth,N-GFS
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inPrep
3588 [e]τοῖς
tois
theArt-DMP
3772 [e]οὐρανοῖς.
ouranois
heavens.N-DMP
 
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Clare73

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I’m ensuring something…. before I respond.

You are quite the delightful enigma…

Did Jesus Die for All of Humanity, including those that reject Him?
Logically, it seems not, for then the reprobates' judgment for sin would be paid twice, which would be injustice.
 
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Logically, it seems not, for then the reprobates' judgment for sin would be paid twice.
If you believe the supremacy of scripture over TULIP... I have already prepared for your answer.

Colossians 1 is one of the Supreme Supremacy of Christ chapters.

My first Question... Does Jesus have ALL supremacy? What I means is when it says that Jesus has ALL supremacy over Heaven and earth, would you say that All means Some, Part of or ALL?
 
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Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son.
14 It is through His Son that we have redemptionthat is, our sins have been forgiven. 15 He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, 16 because in connection with Him were created all things — in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities — they have all been created through Him and for him. 17 He existed before all things, and He holds everything together.
18 Also He is head of the Body, the Messianic Community
I prefer the glory of the NT terminology body/spouse of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:30-33), which includes both OT and NT saints( Heb 12:23), to the paltry "Messianic Community."
 
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I prefer the glory of the NT terminology body/spouse of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:30-33), which includes both OT and NT saints( Heb 12, to man's paltry "Messianic Community."


I prefer the glory of the NT terminology body/spouse of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:30-33), which includes both OT and NT saints( Heb 12:23), to man's "Messianic Community."
I will confess, much of my scriptural grit comes from scouring scripture for every marriage metaphor that the Holy Spirit allows me to find. :D
 
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If you believe the supremacy of scripture over TULIP... I have already prepared for your answer.
I don't find "TULIP" in the NT.
Colossians 1 is one of the Supreme Supremacy of Christ chapters.
Keeping in mind the Colossian heresy on the scene which included angel worship (Col 2:18).
My first Question... Does Jesus have ALL supremacy? What I means is when it says that Jesus has ALL supremacy over Heaven and earth, would you say that All means Some, Part of or ALL?
I would say that in the context of angel worship (Col 2:18), Paul is covering all the bases in establishing the complete adequacy of Christ in his supremacy over the angels, exalting him as the very image of God, the Creator, the pre-existent sustainer of all things, the head of the church, the first to be resurrected, the fullness of deity in bodily form, the reconciler. They have fullness in Christ (Col 2:10 ), they don't need angels.

Election?
 
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I don't find "TULIP" in the NT.

Keeping in mind the Colossian heresy on the scene which included angel worship (Col 2:18).

I would say that in the context of angel worship (Col 2:18), Paul is covering all the bases in establishing the complete adequacy of Christ in his supremacy over the angels, exalting him as the very image of God, the Creator, the pre-existent sustainer of all things, the head of the church, the first to be resurrected, the fullness of deity in bodily form, the reconciler. They have fullness in Christ (Col 2:10 ), they don't need angels.
Excellent. Then, we need not be ashamed to Say that His Blood was shed for All. This doesn't result in Universalism, as some claim. It shows that Jesus genuinely offered His Blood of Atonement to ALL that have ever Lived. He reconciled Himself to All creation. I'm certain you've already peaked in the spoilers that are above, in posts 6 and 7. The Greek for All Supremacy is the Greek for All things in all of existence that He reconciled unto Himself, by His blood. Jesus demonstrated His Omnibenevolence by doing so. After all, God is Love. :D
 
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Colossians 1:13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son.

14 It is through His Son that we have redemptionthat is, our sins have been forgiven. 15 He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, 16 because in connection with Him were created all things — in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities — they have all been created through Him and for him. 17 He existed before all things, and He holds everything together.

18 Also He is head of the Body, the Messianic Community — He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He might hold first place in everything. 19 For it pleased God to have his full being live in His Son 20 and through His Son to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace through Him, through having his Son shed his blood by being executed on a stake (The Cross).
Scripture must be understood in the light of all Scripture.

Obviously does not mean that Christ has saved all people, for Scripture speaks of an eternal hell and makes clear that only believers are saved (Jn 3:18).

Disorder came to all creation (Ro 8:19-22) as the result of Adam's sin. When Christ died on the cross, he also restored in principle the harmony of the physical non-spiritual world, which full realization will occur only when Christ returns (Ro 8:21).
 
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Grip Docility

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Obviously does not mean that Christ has saved all people, for Scripture speaks of an eternal hell and makes clear that only believers are saved (Jn 3:18). Disorder came to all creation (Ro 8:19-22) as the result of Adam's sin. When Christ died on the cross, he restored in principle the harmony of the physical world, which full realization will occur only when Christ returns (Ro 8:21).
Because of the perpetual insistence on Calvin's doctrine of Limited Atonement, the body is scared to declare that Christ Died for all. It's this simple. He calls to ALL. He beckons ALL. His hand is extended to ALL. But, one has to simply reach up from the water (Peter Reference) to be Saved. Some would rather drown. That is YH-H level justice.
 
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See post #8.

For all non-rational creation.

Election?
The entire OP is about John Calvin's doctrine of election. Perhaps yours is different.

To say that Jesus did not Die for All, per Colossians 1, is to literally reduce the scope of Christs cited authority over heaven and earth. It either means that Jesus is God, to which we know that God has ALL "Authority", though we have God given self sovereignty.... or... it means that Jesus is not God, because limiting His scope of Authority, would make Him not with full Sovereignty above all things.
 
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Because of the perpetual insistence on Calvin's doctrine of Limited Atonement, the body is scared to declare that Christ Died for all.
My problem with it is that it would be unjust for the sinner's debt to be paid twice, once by Christ on the cross and again by himself in Hades.
It's this simple. He calls to ALL. He beckons ALL. His hand is extended to ALL. But, one has to simply reach up from the water (Peter Reference) to be Saved.
The spiritually dead (unregenerate drowned) can't reach up from the water.
Throwing the drowned a life preserver is futile.
Some would rather drown. That is YH-H level justice.
They are already drowned, spiritually dead, only a spiritual resurrection (regeneration, Jn 3:3-5) will bring them to spiritual life.
 
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My problem with it is that it would be unjust for the sinner's debt to be paid twice to God.

The spiritually dead (unregenerate drowned) can't reach up from the water.
Throwing the drowned a life preserver is futile.

They are already drowned, spiritually dead, only a spiritual resurrection (regeneration, Jn 3:3-5) will bring them to spiritual life.
By dying for all of creation, God, reconciled ALL to God. It's God's Blood. Only 1 death needed....
 
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My problem with it is that it would be unjust for the sinner's debt to be paid twice, once by Christ on the cross and again by himself in Hades.

The spiritually dead (unregenerate drowned) can't reach up from the water.
Throwing the drowned a life preserver is futile.

They are already drowned, spiritually dead, only a spiritual resurrection (regeneration, Jn 3:3-5) will bring them to spiritual life.
To be more direct... to suggest that God didn't die for all, would actually be the statement that would "Re-Crucify" Him.
 
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